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The Seinar Specialist I2 Tie Aggressor is morbidly overcosted

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It literally has the same hull shields, similar dial to the Torrent, similarly ok actions, with the only exception being that it HAS a turret slot. As we know, most of the time, slots are worth 0-2 points. 

Thus the Seinar is easily 3-5 points overcosted. 

 

--

The Gunboat currently also lacks a niche 

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Yes it is a bit overcosted. But not compared to the torrent. Torrent can't take barrage rocket and this is a big deal.

The Sienar specialist lack of imperial gunners. The turret is not very interesting as you will try to catch enemy bin arc at 2-3 with BR

I think the ion turret synergies not greatly with imps playstyle.

Wait for next imps upgrades, because it has good potential

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I think 28 points would be a good spot. It would be a slightly cheaper but more fragile platform for barrage rockets compared to the TIE bomber, and be a decent option for fielding cheap turret ships. 30 points for a no-thrills dorsal turret boat looks good to me.

Actually I think they'd be fine at 28 points with one turret and one missile slot. Maybe add the systems slot instead of the second missile.

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I am almost certain ( 80%) that ffg will bring back the synced turret to specifically buff the aggressor.

Maybe with a mechanism like " attack: target lock. - if the defencer is outside your front arc, gain one calculate token. "

This is a cool way to encourage not spamming Barrage rocket as you will benefit more from the action TL or barrel roll. Doing so, you oppen space for other TL missiles that are cool but can't compete with BR right now on TIEs

Strangely, the V1 synced turret was about catching opponent in front arc, which I found naratively counterintuitiv.

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15 minutes ago, player2422845 said:

I am almost certain ( 80%) that ffg will bring back the synced turret to specifically buff the aggressor.

Maybe with a mechanism like " attack: target lock. - if the defencer is outside your front arc, gain one calculate token. "

This is a cool way to encourage not spamming Barrage rocket as you will benefit more from the action TL or barrel roll. Doing so, you oppen space for other TL missiles that are cool but can't compete with BR right now on TIEs

Strangely, the V1 synced turret was about catching opponent in front arc, which I found naratively counterintuitiv.

I'd do Synced Turret as a range 1-2, 3-dice "Attack [Lock]" with no real text, but give it "Lock -> Red Rotate" as an action.  The ability to rotate into an action is pretty potent, most turret ships can't do it.  However, this would come at the cost of flexibility.  But that'd probably be absolute BS on Kavil...

3 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

similar dial to the Torrent

??

3 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

similar dial to the Torrent

????

3 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

similar dial to the Torrent

??????

I mean, the Aggressor does cost a bit too much, but this just isn't true.  Aggressor dial is full-white.  Torrent?  Not so much.

If I'm going through the lines, Dial is 1 point better than a Torrent, Hull changed to Shield is typically priced around 1 point, so we're up to 27 before slots.  In a lot of cases, it doesn't seem appropriate to price ships based on their slots.  However, Turrets and Double-Missile might be the exceptions.  Turrets upgrades seem deliberately underpriced with the cost baked into ships with Turret slots.  Barrage Rockets redefines a 2-red ship into essentially a 3-red ship, and that's something which is kind of always awkward and I wish BR didn't exist in the game in their current form.*  Specifically in comparison to a Torrent, the upgrade bar of the Aggressor allows it to easily change it's attack profile with weapons that don't require Locks.  That's something a Torrent can't do at any cost investment, and that matters.

But supposing a 28 point Aggressor, I don't think that feels wrong.  35 for Barrage Rocket, 36 for Dorsal/VTG.

 

* I think a cooler Barrage Rockets would have been a Range 1-3 Bullseye weapon, 3 dice, 3 charges.  Attack [Focus], costs 1 charge to attack, and grants a single reroll (without extra charges being spent).  I'd suppose something like 3-4 points, and maybe reduce to a single missile slot.  I feel like Ordnance should be hard to use.  Locks for most, but the Focus/Bullseye on Proton Rockets feels really good.  It's got a different kind of hard-ness.  However, it's also a huge 5-dice single shot 7 point upgrade, and there isn't a weaker and cheaper equivalent.  I wish Barrage Rockets filled that role--an interesting role--instead of being the boring "Oh hey, I'm a 3-red ship now."

4 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

The Gunboat currently also lacks a niche 

Also hard disagree.

Gunboat is all niche.  SLAM and attack?  Reload and Attack?  A cannon-carrier for Imperials?  It does a LOT of things no other ship can do.  It's about to get essentially 1e Deadeye with Passive Sensors.  If you want to make the case that it's not good at winning games, fine, that's a reasonable case to make (although Vynder did just win Denver a few weeks ago).  But I'd really struggle to say it lacks a niche.  The ship is entirely about filling unique roles within the game of X-Wing.

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5 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

If I'm going through the lines, Dial is 1 point better than a Torrent, Hull changed to Shield is typically priced around 1 point, so we're up to 27 before slots

27, so 29 for the i3, would let you fit 5x Onyx Scouts with Barrage and Ion Turrets.

That might be... alright? But it wouldn't be, like, meta defining. It's sorta like 5x VTG Yions except it can't joust things and even at higher init gets init killed more often.

 

Aggressors are niche filler in a faction lousy with niche filler, and the available turrets are both supplemental right now, even if they're good. If your ace just needs a blocker or a vaguely jousty threat, take a Bomber or TIE instead. Aggressors don't have any tricks other than turrets and the current turrets aren't very tricksy.

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38 minutes ago, CaptainJaguarShark said:

Huh, I thought that was the point. If your turret and primary weapons are synced, then you get an advantage.

The design of the aggressor make it impossible to aim the same target with turret and forward the laser canons.

Synced turret can mean that the two canons shot at the same moment in a single point of space ( the contrary of an auto canon shooting parallely a canon at a time)

This is just about consistency, like how the panels are cut in order to give more angles for the turret, but it is totally subjective and not a big deal at all.

At the end, it is all about suspension of disbelief.

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, svelok said:

27, so 29 for the i3, would let you fit 5x Onyx Scouts with Barrage and Ion Turrets.

That might be... alright? But it wouldn't be, like, meta defining. It's sorta like 5x VTG Yions except it can't joust things and even at higher init gets init killed more often.

 

Aggressors are niche filler in a faction lousy with niche filler, and the available turrets are both supplemental right now, even if they're good. If your ace just needs a blocker or a vaguely jousty threat, take a Bomber or TIE instead. Aggressors don't have any tricks other than turrets and the current turrets aren't very tricksy.

I half think the extra slots on the Aggressor would warrant a 28/30 for the Init 2/3t, but 27 might be right, due to comparison to a Y-Wing rather than Torrent.  Aggressor has a better dial, a bit nicer actions (Reload kind is of irrelevant), but the defensive statline is considerably worse.  The fact that a Sienar Aggressor is a point more only one point cheaper than a Gold Grey Squadron X-Wing is kinda bull****.

Edited by theBitterFig
wtf was I thinking... Y-WIngs aren't 29 points...

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7 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

I half think the extra slots on the Aggressor would warrant a 28/30 for the Init 2/3t, but 27 might be right, due to comparison to a Y-Wing rather than Torrent.  Aggressor has a better dial, a bit nicer actions (Reload kind is of irrelevant), but the defensive statline is considerably worse.  The fact that a Sienar Aggressor is a point more than a Gold Squadron X-Wing is kinda bull****.

Agreed on reload being pretty irrelevant, when reaching the point where you want to reload some single charge, can do it and actually survive it, you probably have already won.

Dials have the same speeds and directions, but Y is slower (3 hards red, 4 straight red, 1 less blue and the blues are 1straight,1bank, 2 straight), whereas Tie/ ag has 1 straight, 2straight 2 banks and 3 straight blue, and only 1 red (4K). Thats quite versatile for a turret bearing snubfighter, playing into defense as well, easier to avoid being shot at at all. Y has 6/2 behind 1agi,  TIE/ag has 5/1 behind agi and linked BR->evade. So, is the defensive profile really worse?

The Y is more a toolbox, being able to take bombs and astros (albeit the Rebel ones are a bit boring) and Illicits for Scum (albeit not many worth taking) Thus a bit more interesting. Barrage rockets are pretty boring as game concept, making the TIE/ag feeling bland, esp in its hypermobile faction, does not really need a turret. Now if there was a TIE/ag ace with an effect comboing with ICT...but maybe that would have been too much of a NPE, having a highly efficient ioniser in the hypermobile Empire.

Gray Squadron 31, Crymoah Goon 31, Sienar TIE/ag 30. So the Aggressor is 1 point cheaper, could maybe drop to 29. 

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

, similar dial to the Torrent

uh...no

Maneuver tie aggressor

AVKefs6.jpg?fb

 

the Torrent is cheapo because its dial is bad

not DISASTROUSLY bad, but still pretty **** bad

 

not that the aggressor shouldn't also be cheaper but...come on

I'd price the Sienar at 27 for its considerably better dial 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, HolySorcerer said:

I wouldn't say that the Torrent dial is worse.  It's a bit worse at speed 3, but better at all the other speeds.

it is worse at Speed 2 and the same at speed 4
 

it is ONLY better at speed 1 because of inverted blues and some extra reds

so it's only better at speed 1, worse at 2-3; the exact same at 4

sure it can troll, but I've never found that to be particularly useful at all 

 

 

for what it is, a throw-away fodder ship, the dial is really really BAD because it's so pathetically slow if it isn't plowing straight ahead

this is why it's so cheap for a 5 health, 2 agi ship 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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2 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

it is worse at Speed 2 and the same at speed 4
 

it is ONLY better at speed 1 because of inverted blues and some extra reds

so it's only better at speed 1, worse at 2-3; the exact same at 4

sure it can troll, but I've never found that to be particularly useful at all 

They each have 4 blues so they're fairly even there.  The torrent has access to hard turns at speed 1 and trolls at speed 2, making it a lot more maneuverable at low speeds.  I'd say they're fairly equivalent.  Neither have amazing dials, but the torrent must be decent because they are all over the place, the Aggressor on the other hand is completely useless and I don't think I've ever seen one flown.

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Posted (edited)

the 2-troll is pretty bleh. Have yet to have a reason to use it

Stress is a killer for such a fragile ship, so you don't have easy access to 1-turns especially with its suite of blues

they're not even remotely equivalent. The Torrent is slow and clunky, the 'Gressor is decently maneuverable 

 

the Torrent is seen far more often because a.) hyperspace b.) it's cheap as ****

'Gressor is too expensive (why does it cost the same as the bomber!?) but it's not even REMOTELY similar to the torrent ito dial quality. It's far above, especially if you ever want to use it as a flanking turret (Kestal barrage + ion = fun)

Here's a better way to look at this: the Gressor has 3 non-red banks to the Torrent's two and twice as many non-red turns

this is a ridiculous advantage, especially when trying to navigate around obstacles/ships

At speed 3, the Torrent is kind of a joke and it can only effectively change its facing at speed 2

Edited by ficklegreendice

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

(why does it cost the same as the bomber!?) 

Because Barrage Rockets exist, and mass Rockets is a proven bad idea.

The problem is both ships having two missile slots means they'll always be competing on who's the better Rocket Delivery System. One of the two will be rendered unplayable by the other until that argument ceases to matter, either because Rockets themselves get priced into oblivion or one of the two ships loses a missile slot and is forced to find another niche to fill.

Edited by DR4CO

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3 minutes ago, DR4CO said:

Because Barrage Rockets exist, and mass Rockets is a proven bad idea.

The problem is both ships having two missile slots means they'll always be competing on who's the better Rocket Delivery System. One of the two will be rendered unplayable by the other until that argument ceases to matter, either because Rockets themselves get priced into oblivion or one of the two ships loses a missile slot and is forced to find another niche to fill.

There is nothing wrong with barrage rockets.  In fact, I'll go so far as to say that they are the best designed missile in the game, with the rest ranging from mediocre to laughably bad.

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, HolySorcerer said:

Eh, fair enough.  I have only ever flown my Aggressors once, and I've never touched a torrent, so I can't comment too much about how they feel on a table.

The Aggie does fly better, but it's got no role to perform in the Imperial lineup. Or, rather, no role that isn't done better by something else. The V-19, meanwhile, has a job to do that no one else can, even if it's only to provide cheap guns for Sinker to work with or provide cheap blobs of HP that buy time for Jedi to go to work.

7 minutes ago, HolySorcerer said:

There is nothing wrong with barrage rockets.  In fact, I'll go so far as to say that they are the best designed missile in the game, with the rest ranging from mediocre to laughably bad.

I disagree, and would submit as evidence the fact that Bombers and K-wings are only ever played as Rocket Delivery Systems (and that the Aggie sees no play because it doesn't do that job as well as the Bomber). They are an example of the devs clearly not learning the lessons of 1st Edition Deadeye and the power of range 3 ordnance.

Edited by DR4CO

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2 hours ago, Managarmr said:

Gray Squadron 31, Crymoah Goon 31, Sienar TIE/ag 30. So the Aggressor is 1 point cheaper, could maybe drop to 29. 

Bah.  Why was I pricing the Y-Wing at 29 in my head?  And that was even at a reasonable hour of the day.

12 minutes ago, DR4CO said:

[Why the same as bombers?] Because Barrage Rockets exist, and mass Rockets is a proven bad idea.

The problem is both ships having two missile slots means they'll always be competing on who's the better Rocket Delivery System. One of the two will be rendered unplayable by the other until that argument ceases to matter, either because Rockets themselves get priced into oblivion or one of the two ships loses a missile slot and is forced to find another niche to fill.

At 1 HP lower than a Bomber, however, there's a real trade-off and I believe it does warrant like 1 or 2 point drop in price.  Barrage Rockets again mess everything up.

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1 minute ago, DR4CO said:

 

I disagree, and would submit as evidence the fact that Bombers and K-wings are only ever played as Rocket Delivery Systems (and that the Aggie sees no play because it doesn't do that job as well as the Bomber). They are an example of the devs clearly not learning the lessons of 1st Edition Deadeye and the power of range 3 ordnance.

The Aggressor is just a worse bomber, regardless of what upgrades are good.

Barrage rockets are good, yes, but being good doesn't mean that they are OP.  Before the homing missile nerf you would see a lot of them used as well, but right now barrage rockets are the only decent missiles in the game, so of course those are the only missiles you see used.  If FFG ever makes Clusters and Concussions usable then you will see those get more use as well, but as of now they just aren't worth buying.  But as of now, the ease of use for low I ships combined with number of charges makes them the most popular. 

As for their power, they are slightly better than a primary at range 3, equal at range 2, and worse at range 1.  They also require their pilot to acquire and hold a focus token for them to even be fired, making them weaker on defense and unusable while stressed or when they have to reposition.  Barrage rockets are not a problem.  The only reason they were everywhere for a time was because of how cheap Jonus was.

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4 minutes ago, HolySorcerer said:

The only reason they were everywhere for a time was because of how cheap Jonus was.

I mean has anyone seen them at all since the points change? I’ve only seen it because one guy locally flies quad K’s. But Bombers have all but vanished from the meta, and Aggressors never showed up, so they have been rather scarce.

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