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mazz0

Padme's *what* initiative?!

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1 hour ago, CaptainJaguarShark said:

I do think Padme feels more right in my gut at I3 but I've not got much issue with it. I think it might be reasonable that piloting these fighters and other starships is part of queen-training, as well as for the handmaidens. They have to be able to take each other's places in any role for the decoy trick to make sense. We also know for a fact that a later queen- Sosha Soruna) was trained as a fighter pilot and was seen flying alongside Shara Bey and Leia Organa (although Leia and Sosha were primarily not engaging with enemy fighters but dealing with some satellites). I don't remember exactly the scene but Padme also helped in piloting or copiloting to Geonosis.

Seems reasonable to assume that at least some other queens did fighter/spaceship training and that their skill could be reasonably good.

Maybe so, maybe she has lots of piloting experience.  After all in real life politicians have time to take on second jobs like writing for newspapers or running companies, so it's vaguely plausible they have time to learn to fly fighter ships, but 4 out of 6?  Surely that represents a degree of serious professionalism (or some sort of magic or supernatural luck, which we're not led to believe Padmé has), not just basic training.  And more importantly, she's still learning from Ashoka when she's a Senator, so Ashoka's clearly the better pilot at that point.

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9 minutes ago, mazz0 said:

Maybe so, maybe she has lots of piloting experience.  After all in real life politicians have time to take on second jobs like writing for newspapers or running companies, so it's vaguely plausible they have time to learn to fly fighter ships, but 4 out of 6?  Surely that represents a degree of serious professionalism (or some sort of magic or supernatural luck, which we're not led to believe Padmé has), not just basic training.  And more importantly, she's still learning from Ashoka when she's a Senator, so Ashoka's clearly the better pilot at that point.

As others have mentioned, Initiative is not merely a depiction of pilot skill in a straightforward way. That's part of the reason they changed the name from Pilot Skill in the first place. Perhaps the N1 is also easier to fly than the Delta-7. That would help explain how Ani picked it up so quickly as well as why Padme might be better in this. Maybe if she was on another ship she'd have lower I, and Ahsoka might have a higher I. Then again, this could just be mechanical balance- which is also fine.

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Pilot Skill is not a part of Second Edition X-Wing. "You must unlearn what you have learned". The Initiative score replaced the game-mechanical function of PS, and it means only what it says - Initiative. Highly skilled pilots (Soontir Fel, Wedge Antilles, etc) can seize the initiative in space combat because they're so accomplished at the controls. Padme is an example of a character who has strong (but still less than the true aces) Intiative by decisiveness and named-character cinematic mojo. This is the woman who deposed the sitting Chancellor of the Republic in a single address to the Senate and fought a war with a makeshift army against the Trade Federation invasion force (and won) - "taking the initiative" is what she does.

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26 minutes ago, player3010587 said:

You mean pilot. Space Mary Poppins flew for you, at least acknowledge that!

Hey, I love that scene.

5 hours ago, Manolox said:

padme pilot skills are clearly bad.... like a woman that drives a car! But this makes her highly unpredictable!

.....So initiative 4

>😕
 

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Archangelspiv said:

Gameplay > Fluff

Always. 

Except for the part where I would never have spent thousands of dollars on a game of GENERIC SPACESHIPS: THE MINIATURES GAME.

We could redesign XWM and make Vader IN1.  It wouldn't break gameplay at all.  But I'll bet no one would buy a game with solid rules and Darth Vader Dark Lord of the Wuss.

Fluff matters in a SW IP game.  Always.  And if you screw up the fluff, people will walk away from your solid gameplay.

6 hours ago, mazz0 said:

Oh come on.  Exactly how does it help gameplay that the I4 N1 pilot is Padmé and not some rando?  As far as I can see it doesn't, so this is nothing but a fluff consideration.

Anyway relax guys, my tone wasn't serious, I'm firmly in the "it's just toy spaceships" camp.

Yep.

If fluff didn't matter, there are at least 3 other Bravo Squadron on-screen pilots that should be in the game over Padme.

But people are going to want to fly Padme more.  Because fluff matters.

Edited by Darth Meanie

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7 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Except for the part where I would never have spent thousands of dollars on a game of GENERIC SPACESHIPS: THE MINIATURES GAME.

Fluff matters in a SW IP game.  Always. 

Yep.

If fluff didn't matter, there are at least 3 other Bravo Squadron on-screen pilots that should be in the game over Padme.

But people are going to want to fly Padme more.  Because fluff matters.

uh...gameplay > fluff does not mean fluff DOESN'T MATTER

 

I know it's like ingrained in America that everything is polarized into absolutes (only a sith etc.), but accepting a fundamental truth of game design does NOT mean fluff is irrelevant

 

seriously, it just means you don't let fluff get in the way of making a comprehensible and enjoyable game.

I.e, it's taking something like the B-wing (a roving weapons platform bristling with ordnance and cannons) and turning it into a 3-die primary because it's far more convenient for players to remember. It's not letting Anakin be used in the same squad as Anakin, but allowing Anakin to play against Anakin (and allowing the republic to face the resistance in battle). It's making sure Vader can't evade (or fly a defender) because that'd be ridiculous

jesus, people. You can balance more than one thing, just don't forget we're playing a game and ergo game mechanics have priority over slavish adherence to "fluff."

 

Also, Padme's initiative is justifiable both via gameplay AND fluff (though if we're going by fluff, she should be I 10)

Proof: (Padme out initiates an I 5 and I 6)


 

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, millertime059 said:

The decision to use Padme over other Bravo pilots

tenor.gif?itemid=4968261

Oh, yeah, I'm totally not surprised she's in the game, because your point is 100% valid.

And as for gameplay vs. fluff, the handmaiden thing is a cool gameplay element that requires Padme on the table to make fluffy sense.

19 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

seriously, it just means you don't let fluff get in the way of making a comprehensible and enjoyable game.

Well, you quoted before my edit, so I'll just still rebut that if the fluff doesn't get in the way a lot, no one is going to play a solid and enjoyable game that is incomprehensible for the IP.

So when people critique the IN of a main character as pilot in the game, it is a discussion that is far more valid (or at least more interesting) than a hand-wave "gameplay > fluff" counter-argument.

Edited by Darth Meanie

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Posted (edited)

 I don't get the critique of Padme's IN since there's so many perspectives flying in from every angle

but the so called "hand-wave" argument is incredibly relevant. FFG explicitly stated that Initiative != pilot skill, SPECIFICALLY because silly arguments like this would occasionally break out. It's an ambiguous gameplay stat, why are we giving it such fluff importance? 

 

Now I'm definitely not singling out the OP here, because this was certainly tongue-in-cheek, but I've seen some ridiculous vitriol on facebook groups about Padme's initiative (and her being a pilot in the first place). It's kinda disturbing how invested people can be in a supposed "contradiction" to what they feel is canon, especially when it's something as vague and ambiguous as "initiative" 

Besides, regardless how one feels about the character and the movies, she was clearly shown to be a badass in episodes 1 & 2. So...who cares if she's I 4!?

Edited by ficklegreendice

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46 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

 I don't get the critique of Padme's IN since there's so many perspectives flying in from every angle

but the so called "hand-wave" argument is incredibly relevant. FFG explicitly stated that Initiative != pilot skill, SPECIFICALLY because silly arguments like this would occasionally break out. It's an ambiguous gameplay stat, why are we giving it such fluff importance? 

 

Now I'm definitely not singling out the OP here, because this was certainly tongue-in-cheek, but I've seen some ridiculous vitriol on facebook groups about Padme's initiative (and her being a pilot in the first place). It's kinda disturbing how invested people can be in a supposed "contradiction" to what they feel is canon, especially when it's something as vague and ambiguous as "initiative" 

Besides, regardless how one feels about the character and the movies, she was clearly shown to be a badass in episodes 1 & 2. So...who cares if she's I 4!?

People think Padme shouldn't be an N-1 pilot...?

This is incredible news. It means there's actually a group of people out there who have successfully erased Episode II from their memory. HOW CAN I BECOME ONE OF YOU

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1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:

Except for the part where I would never have spent thousands of dollars on a game of GENERIC SPACESHIPS: THE MINIATURES GAME.

 

Maybe not you. Some people like me wouldn't mind. I love star wars, but I mainly play because the rules are solid, not the opposite.

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21 minutes ago, DarthSempai said:

Maybe not you. Some people like me wouldn't mind. I love star wars, but I mainly play because the rules are solid, not the opposite.

I took an informal survey awhile back, and about 2/3 of people seemed to be into the game because SW.

People were mad about the X-Wing not being viable in 1.0.

People are mad because the TIE fighter is in too many factions and is not solely Imperial.

People really want Epic because it looks like Star Wars.

10 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

come for the star wars (and, more importantly, the impeccable pre-painted miniatures!)

stay for the game that's worth a ****

Well, I suppose that's the million dollar question.

If this game was only tournament-style dials-and-templates, I don't think it's all that interesting.  It's the Star Wars that keeps me here, 110%.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, ficklegreendice said:

It's not as simple as saying SW keeps you here

See, if the game sucked...

And yet.  . .

I'm still playing the version of the game y'all burned a year ago as utter broken garbage. 

What I am sticking around for is the Star Warsy goodness of the game heading into the Prequels and the story telling power of New Epic, ruleset be-damned.

Edited by Darth Meanie

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Posted (edited)

It can be both fluff and gameplay. That’s allowed guys.

 

Star Wars draws a lot of us in. A reputation for good gameplay does also. Good gameplay keeps us here. Those ships being Star Wars also keeps many of us here. 

To whoever said Padme has a trash ability, I entirely disagree.

Edited by dsul413

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