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tsondaboy

Passive Sensors on Phantoms!

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Here's something: if Scrubs with Passive Sensors are up at Ace-prices, that's really bad for *competitive* PS use.  It's not necessarily bad for casual PS use.  Someone really wants to just fly generic gunboats and not have a terrible time, they can.  That's a separate issue from whether or not they're seeing use at top tables.  Personally, I think a top-tables large tournaments PS Torpedo list sounds really bad for the game, but slightly-less-good ones aren't necessarily going to be bad for just hanging out at the local game store.

Passive Sensors seems like the kind of upgrade that might be fine overpriced, since it'll get ships onto tables, but might not redefine the metagame.

52 minutes ago, RStan said:

There are very few edge cases where this card will be valuable, but will be even less so if it is on the expensive side (6+ pts). If you're looking to use this on lower initiative pilots, then those pilots do need to stay alive before getting initiative killed by those higher than them. If you use the Passive Sensors action and don't have another way to mod dice defensively or even offensively, it's value drops dramatically for that ship. Ships that stand out right now are those with access to defensive mods without using an action in Phantoms, N-1s, Defenders, Hyenas from NetworkCalc buddies, and any force user. That way that ship has a higher chance to stick around and still take advantage of the Passive Sensors mitigating it's weakness of costing an action that would normally leave that ship vulnerable. 

Just for some examples of longevity against 3 focused red dice:

It's not automatic by any means that these ships survive, but doesn't seem too improbable.

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And when you have four Nu Gunboats instead of three, you can accept those odds.  I see it this way: they may have to devote their team's shots to getting less than half a chance of init-killing one of four proton torpedo gunboats.  If they succeed, you still get three proton torps off, likely trading one scrub for one of their better, more pricey ships.  If they fail, you get a 4th torpedo off, or if the locked victim is dead, a 2-dice shot for funsies; they'll need to devote at least one more shot in a future round to end that ship and stop its 2nd torpedo from leaving the tube.  You really want to kill a gunboat in that first exchange, but even if you do, you still take up to 3 torps to the face.

Anyone who's fought rebel beef knows a fleet with lots of health can afford to lose a ship to a concentrated attack; that's what they're there for.  The team just has to give as good as they get.  The question is, with proton torp alphas will it be a fair trade?

I'd love to hear from people proxying the card at various prices and find out what they're doing with it, how well it works, etc.

One point of hope for a cheaper PS: if a specific combo like 4 gunboats is a problem, FFG might simply adjust the gunboat price (instead of making PS expensive) to prevent the one combo.  Basically, one or more ships may have to take the fall so other ships can enjoy a cheap PS.  But there's a lot that wants to use this card, so I don't think it's that simple.

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This can be abused to allow Vader to Force roll actions in the engagement phase.
He can spend the charge, then TL, focus and Barrel roll for 1 Force and a stress. Allowing him to choose the best target if he has been out dialed.

The cost is going to be a major factor IMO. 

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Remember that fun B -tier list of 3 Heightened Perception Inky's with Jendon, kitted out with cluster missiles and support upgrades to taste? With Passive Sensors, you can now bump the power of your alpha by not needing that telegraphing scanner shuttle. What happens if the target dodges or gets eliminated by the friendlies? Worry no more! Each Inky gets to choose who to lock when he wants to shoot, but still at I7! Furthermore, if the cost of the card is 3pt, you can run 4 heightened perception Inky's with it and Concussion missiles! 4pt wouldn't be a hurdle, as you could run them each with cluster missiles! If we reach 5, then we can do the old Juke Phantom trick: one guy doesn't get the toy (in this case, drop a missile). If the slot costs 6, just drop 2 of the missiles: you still fire at I7 with the lock.

At any rate, excited for Vess to finally have useful friends of his initiative level. No bid required!

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Posted (edited)
47 minutes ago, Archangelspiv said:

This can be abused to allow Vader to Force roll actions in the engagement phase.
He can spend the charge, then TL, focus and Barrel roll for 1 Force and a stress. Allowing him to choose the best target if he has been out dialed.

The cost is going to be a major factor IMO. 

Yep, Vader has won the bidding war by sidestepping it completely. 

If you do lose the play order bid, another PS 6 can still adjust to where Vader is now, but you can then roll after them, so there still is some counter-play there.

Edited by kris40k

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:

Except he hasn't. A single roll is not the same as movement and repositioning. It's a lot easier to keep him in arc when you know he can only roll.

Myep

Plus sensors can still be denied via typical action denial (overlapping stuff; stress etc) 

Silencer is arguably the bigger problem, but even then it can only boost OR roll

Basically, this ain't got **** on ye olde supernatural + moving after 

It's neat, and it MAY let low I silencers see the light of day (counter arcdodge!)

Edit: right...this ain't first Ed...NO SILENCER 4YOU 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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And, as a Phantom lover, hopefully this doesn’t ruin what makes them fun, by causing a points spike that removes the low upgrade Echo I love to fly from viability.

Because one or two Phantoms are good, but absolutely not busted.

Honestly as someone who loves a lot of the mid I ships, I despair so much of the meta is just 3 I5/6 ships. And I don’t want a points spike on the lower I Phantoms to push them out from my mixed squads. I like lists like my 4 I4s, and don’t want changes that push me to join the high I meta crowd.

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5 hours ago, MegaSilver said:

Not sure what you mean by this, I rarely see the slot used, and if it is its Collision Detector. Jukes on, and if its Whisper then 5th Bro on board too. So theres hardly any compromise aside from the points investment itself. 

It really depends on what you are flying I guess because after the release of Ion Clouds, Collision Detector is stapled on any phantom I fly. I am also switching to Trick Shot in the same combo, just to be prepared to the rumored points hike of Juke. My usual phantom list looks like this:

https://raithos.github.io/?f=Galactic Empire&d=v6!s=200!200:133,112,82,:;199:133,112,,:;183:115,63,26,:&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

It used to have Jukes and no 0-0-0, but like I said I am training for the post-juke era. Still, it works like a charm with Ion clouds.
Now depending on how much the Passive sensors costs I might give it a try, but its a big compromise for me to drop Collision detector from them. 

 

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4 hours ago, player3010587 said:

Remember that fun B -tier list of 3 Heightened Perception Inky's with Jendon, kitted out with cluster missiles and support upgrades to taste?

Just wait. 3 SNR Inquisitors with PS is the real sleeper on the way.  Now you get to trade your force for a focus and either double mod your shots OR double reposition and end without stress!  Oh, and good luck plinking damage against a 3 dice focus+evade every turn!  These are going to be real boogers when paired with an ace.

I'm seriously excited to try this... and pretty sure it may be busted 🙄.

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21 minutes ago, Test Pilot said:

Just wait. 3 SNR Inquisitors with PS is the real sleeper on the way.  Now you get to trade your force for a focus and either double mod your shots OR double reposition and end without stress!  Oh, and good luck plinking damage against a 3 dice focus+evade every turn!  These are going to be real boogers when paired with an ace.

I'm seriously excited to try this... and pretty sure it may be busted 🙄.

🤨 Exactly how are you coming to this conclusion? I get the added economy from SNR (Repo into Focus then executing a blue), but Evade isn't something you're going to have a token from if you're using PS's action for the delayed Lock or Calculate action...

swz40_card-passive-sensors.png

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6 hours ago, Wazat said:

If they fail, you get a 4th torpedo off, or if the locked victim is dead, a 2-dice shot for funsies; they'll need to devote at least one more shot in a future round to end that ship and stop its 2nd torpedo from leaving the tube.

Nope on the 2-dice shot, it'll be a torpedo.  If the first three shots take down, say, Wedge, you'll be able to turn the 4th Torpedo shot onto Cassian or whatever.  Nu #4 gets their lock before they engage, so after the other ships have already engaged.

Oh, and if they live, they can run well with a 3--SLAM--3 out to safety (or throw a block, then SLAM out the turn after that), taking their time to safely get to a flank and reset, giving the opponent a devil of a time trying to get that last damage or two.

Even over 50 points, I think one of these would be a rather capable ship.  Three plus something probably will feel decent enough.

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24 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

🤨 Exactly how are you coming to this conclusion? I get the added economy from SNR (Repo into Focus then executing a blue), but Evade isn't something you're going to have a token from if you're using PS's action for the delayed Lock or Calculate action...

swz40_card-passive-sensors.png

You're correct - you can't take all the actions, but this gives you an extreemly flexible chassis that will let you get aggressive (PS for double mods), turtle (reposition + focus + evade), or acey (double reposition + focus). 

It's Howl, Iden, and a stranger phantom all had a baby... and it's beautiful.

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, tsondaboy said:

 My usual phantom list looks like this:

Nice. I have similar, but Vader has his own ride in mine.... Stealth Vader

5 hours ago, Test Pilot said:

SNR Inquisitors with PS ...pretty sure it may be busted 🙄.

SuperInqs are glorious but it hasn't felt like there is much to be gained from PS to me, their economy is so good already. They want to be R1 to maximise their dial, primary attack and SNR moves. Focus/evade until you're close enough, and safe enough, to focus/lock. Spending a TL is not much of a multiplier on a 2 die attack. I'm much more likely to take FCS, it's practically as good a mod as full lock when they're back at R2.

However, 4 Heightened Perception, Cluster Inqs with PS may work well. If it's 4pt. Any more than 4pt and you're struggling to fit an appropriate 4th ship with 3 of them. 2 might still be a good squad component.

Edited by Cuz05

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Haven't seen it anywhere here in a skim (please point it out if I missed it), but is there any reason why Passive Sensors can't be scale-costed to Initiative?  That might solve a lot of the conundrums people are debating. 

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Just now, feltipern1 said:

Haven't seen it anywhere here in a skim (please point it out if I missed it), but is there any reason why Passive Sensors can't be scale-costed to Initiative?  That might solve a lot of the conundrums people are debating. 

Nope, no reason. Allot of that has to do with points not being available so the discussions are more focused on potential issues, like the possible one in this thread's title.

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14 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Nope on the 2-dice shot, it'll be a torpedo.  If the first three shots take down, say, Wedge, you'll be able to turn the 4th Torpedo shot onto Cassian or whatever.  Nu #4 gets their lock before they engage, so after the other ships have already engaged.

Oh, and if they live, they can run well with a 3--SLAM--3 out to safety (or throw a block, then SLAM out the turn after that), taking their time to safely get to a flank and reset, giving the opponent a devil of a time trying to get that last damage or two.

Even over 50 points, I think one of these would be a rather capable ship.  Three plus something probably will feel decent enough.

Oh hells, you're right.  It is right when you engage instead of at start of engagement, which is amazing.  That really does make it like deadeye; I was misremembering and thinking the timing wouldn't be that good; should have reread the card.

"Thank god the timing at least prevents Freelance Slicer abuse, at least it's balanced", said no one ever.  :)

Over 50 points, you'll probably be able to fit the TIE Reaper with Tactical Officer for a white coordinate before the gunboats activate, which is an excellent support.  It's also an ideal bumpy boy for blocking enemy sloops or k-turns while your alphas skedaddle.  So look for that if it ends up being 7 or 8 points instead of 6.

2 minutes ago, feltipern1 said:

Haven't seen it anywhere here in a skim (please point it out if I missed it), but is there any reason why Passive Sensors can't be scale-costed to Initiative?  That might solve a lot of the conundrums people are debating. 

Agreed, it's very possible it'll be scaled by some variable-cost scheme or other.  Scaling up with init doesn't solve the phantom or gunboat spam, but might keep aces from cheaply out-classing other aces.  Or they might go crazy and make it more expensive for lower initiative, or something bonkers like that.  :D

But I can also imagine it costing more based on how many PS copies are in the fleet.  For example, one is 6 points, 2 are 7 points each, 3 are 8 or 9 points each, etc.  To me that makes the most sense for making sure you don't have 4x gunboats/phantoms, if that turns out to be ugly in the meta.  At that point it makes sense to have one or two munition boats with an ace, or maybe 3 with a support.  But it doesn't prevent Vader and Kylo from outmaneuvering other aces, if that ends up being trouble in testing.

 

Also?  You know there's one more consequence of the spiritual return of Deadeye.  Somewhere, the jumpmaster is sitting in a dark room crying because it lacks a sensor slot.  >:D

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17 minutes ago, feltipern1 said:

Haven't seen it anywhere here in a skim (please point it out if I missed it), but is there any reason why Passive Sensors can't be scale-costed to Initiative?  That might solve a lot of the conundrums people are debating. 

If anything I'd expect it to be inverse scaled to init, i.e., more expensive for low init pilots, because they're the ones that gain most from it.

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