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What is the "Revealed Maneuver" ?

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3 hours ago, DarthSempai said:

The ''Executed'' maneuver is the one the ship actually did while it was moving. Currently, there is no official way to keep track of this one, and as such, no ability ask that you remember what ship Executed which maneuver, with good reason.

Except... there.. is.. i posted the pic of it earlier..
 

On 5/20/2019 at 6:46 PM, Lyianx said:

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1 minute ago, Lyianx said:

Except... there.. is.. i posted the pic of it earlier..
 

 

Sorry missed that :P. While true, I don't think this makes my assession of what ''executed'' and ''revealed'' means, but some people may disagree with me.

I guess they could eventually make token for the express purpose of keeping track of the executed speed, as opposed to the revealed one, but it wouldn't be a very efficient use of cardboard lol.

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2 minutes ago, DarthSempai said:

Sorry missed that :P. While true, I don't think this makes my assession of what ''executed'' and ''revealed'' means, but some people may disagree with me.

I guess they could eventually make token for the express purpose of keeping track of the executed speed, as opposed to the revealed one, but it wouldn't be a very efficient use of cardboard lol.

Also note, there are many ability's that rely on the difficulty of the executed maneuver, which is no less or more information than knowing the speed or bearing of it, especially if it gets changed. 

Edited by Lyianx

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Capture.jpg

posting this again for clarity.

1. the dial is revealed by flipping it up. it is then placed next to the ship. this is the revealed dial. it seems like the revealed dial can be changed by other effects, but that's not entirely clear. this is done by effects such as hera syndullas or r2-a6s.
2. the ship executes the maneuver that's on the revealed dial. there are replacement effects for this, such as intertial dampeners or ved foslo. please note that these cards use the word instead to indicate they are indeed replacement effects.
3. ya, we're no longer discussing the revealed dial, just go ahead an perform an action or two, why don't you?


VCX-100_Syndulla.pngswz40_card-r2-a6.png

Swz08-inertial-dampeners.pngSwz15_a1_ved-foslo.png

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Well, one way to put it, if the revealed manoeuvre is not the one the revealed dial ended up pointing add, we might need to establish a new term. For if I've got a ship that: 

  1. Revealed 2 Straight.
  2. Set that to, let's say, 3 straight. 
  3. In the end used Inertial Dampeners to stay in place. 

Then 2 Straight would be the "Revealed Manoeuvre", Stationary the "Executed Manoeuvre", but 3 straight "This other manoeuvre, let's not talk about it, ok?".

Edited by Ryfterek
typo

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1 hour ago, Ryfterek said:

Well, one way to put it, if the revealed manoeuvre is not the one the revealed dial ended up pointing add, we might need to establish a new term. For if I've got a ship that: 

  1. Revealed 2 Straight.
  2. Set that to, let's say, 3 straight. 
  3. In the end used Inertial Dampeners to stay in place. 

Then 2 Straight would be the "Revealed Manoeuvre", Stationary the "Executed Manoeuvre", but 3 straight "This other maneuver, let's not talk about it, ok?".

Why would the 3 straight not become the new ''Revealed'' maneuver? I don't think there's anything that says that a Revealed Maneuver is immutable.

I think it has to do with ambiguity in the english language. ''Revealed'' Maneuver can be either : 
''The maneuver that was revealed at the specific point in time.'' 
versus
''The currently revealed maneuver on the dial.''

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Previous to these new abilities from the N-1 this difference only mattered to delineate whether the new maneuver had to be on your dial. For example a Seasoned Navigator on a Lambda can only change a 1-bank to a 1-bank the other way or a 1-straight, the 1-hard turns are off limits. By contrast if Ved Foslo reveals a 2-hard he can in fact change it to a 1-hard because the dial is not part of the picture for him.

I think if it says to set your dial to a new maneuver (R2-A6, Hera...) that is changing the revealed dial, but if it says execute another maneuver instead (Ved, ID...) that is only changing the executed maneuver while leaving the revealed dial untouched. That's how I'm going to play it until we get an official ruling saying otherwise.

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7 hours ago, Ryfterek said:

Well, one way to put it, if the revealed manoeuvre is not the one the revealed dial ended up pointing add, we might need to establish a new term. For if I've got a ship that: 

  1. Revealed 2 Straight.
  2. Set that to, let's say, 3 straight. 
  3. In the end used Inertial Dampeners to stay in place. 

Then 2 Straight would be the "Revealed Manoeuvre", Stationary the "Executed Manoeuvre", but 3 straight "This other manoeuvre, let's not talk about it, ok?".

this 1 2 3 is quite confusing, because it's not following the order in which activation is performed.

while i do get where you're coming from, the 2 straight is the maneuver revealed, but mauever being changed to a 3 straight and the maneuver the straight 3 is, is still the revealed maneuver, since that's the one you're supposed to execute and that's the only maneuver you can change.

of course, replacement effects lets you execute a different maneuver all together, which is where the term executed maneuver comes in.

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2 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

What happens when ved changes to a move that is not on his dial?

he executes a maneuver that's not on his dial. his ability is a replacement effect, not a change of the revealed maneuver.

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As I see it, based on language used in the rules it is:

a) Reveal dial > this is your revealed maneuver.

b) Change dial from revealed to something else > this is not the revealed maneuver anymore as it is no longer the same as you revealed. it was never revealed again but changed. revealed != changed. The actual meaning of "reveal" is to make something secret/unknown/hidden be known/visible.

c) Use ability that lets you use a maneuver different from the one on the dial. This is your executed maneuver, not revealed maneuver or currently selected maneuver.

So executed maneuver can be any of a, b or c. The only one of these that is visible is b, which would be by far the most convenient one to use when deciding on whether you can use an ability or not. This is however not what the wording of the rules say and could have been worded as "selected maneuver" if that was the intention or "executed maneuver" (which would make most sense when you think about the ability: if I go faster

Based purely on the logic and meaning of words this is the logical way to interpret this. 

It is however rather inconvenient to have to keep track of what happened in a previous phase (you are explicitly prohibited from taking notes during tournament, so you cant even write it down to keep track) in the turn to know whether you can use an ability or not, though this is not the only case  (Corrans disarm token comes in the beginning of next round, Sarco Planc needs to know executed maneuver.... to name a couple).

So, even if the logical way to read the rules is that revealed maneuver is the one selected on the dial when you revealed it, it would be more convenient to use the selected maneuver for abilities as it is actually visible but would kinda make most sense thematically to use the maneuver that got executed. All 3 cases can be argued for and thus we do need a ruling to make it absolutely clear what "revealed maneuver" means. Until that is the case, the only way IMHO is to use the meaning of the words used to write the rules, which is the maneuver on the dial when it was revealed because when we have nothing better to use, we have to use the rules as written.

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3 hours ago, haukurv said:

The actual meaning of "reveal" is to make something secret/unknown/hidden be known/visible.

Keep in mind, that the "actual meaning" doesnt mean anything in regards to the rules. It doesnt matter how "the world" defines revealed, it only matters how X-wing defines revealed. For example. 

Hera - "After you reveal a red or blue maneuver, you may set your dial to another maneuver of the same difficulty."

Hera's ability triggers after step 1 of the activation phase (reveal dial), which itself, states that a dial is put in a revealed state (indicated by the bold keyword) by flipping it face up. But Hera states "after you reveal", which is a specific step "Reveal dial". Ok? alright. So. Hera changes the dial. Its now on another maneuver. Now we continue. 

"Execute Maneuver: The ship executes the maneuver selected on the revealed dial."

 

OK, now. Step 2, tells us to execute the maneuver on the revealed dial. Now that Hera has changed the maneuver, the one currently face up, in the 'revealed' state, is the one it wants us to execute. I think we all understand that, and it how all of us play her. So then why would we interpret Ric Olié's ability differently?

 

I think people are getting confused that a "revealed" maneuver is the act of flipping it over, rather than it being in a state of revealed "ie, face up". They don't use "face up" because mechanically, that isn't officially 'revealed' (see Snoke/Informant). Revealed, much like Damaged, is a mechanical state vs revealing and suffering damage. 

 

Did FFG make that super clear? No. But it is, from my perspective, the easiest explanation that ties in with how the rest of the mechanics work. It would be nice if they didnt just point to "Activation Phase" to define "Revealed". But, the fact that it DOES have its own entry in the rules reference does indicate that it is a key word, and in this case, a mechanical state.

 

 

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i agree @Lyianx. i think people don't read step 2 of activation properly. that's what i missed before changing my mind after examining again.

it has massive implications. among others that "revealed" is a state of a dial or maneuver rather than a snap shot of what was revealed during the first step of activation.

"Execute Maneuver: The ship executes the maneuver selected on the revealed dial."

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I agree @Lyianx that this should be the way to rule this, but unfortunately the term "revealed maneuver" is not clearly defined in the rules and the cards should probably have used "selected maneuver" instead. And I disagree that "actual meaning" is irrelevant, when we have something not clearly defined by the rules we only have "actual meaning" to go by until things are clearly ruled.

Just clarifying again, I agree with you on the way the rules "should" handle this, but IMO they don't quite do so, leading to ambiguity which should ideally be officially resolved. with clear rulings.

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Alongside the release of Wave 3, the rule reference was updated with the definitions of Remotes, Solitary and Strain among others. Let's have faith in FFG and hope that a similar update will come with Wave 4.

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18 hours ago, Cartchan said:

Alongside the release of Wave 3, the rule reference was updated with the definitions of Remotes, Solitary and Strain among others. Let's have faith in FFG and hope that a similar update will come with Wave 4.

Or a month after, at any rate.

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N1:

The term 'revealed maneuver' makes their abilities even stronger: what if they bump/ didn’t 'fully execute' their maneuver?!

—>ability still works!  😄

...instead of a wording like 'executed' or worse 'fully executed' maneuver. 

Edited by Tellonius

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Feels that way.

 

Quote

Some abilities reference a ship’s revealed maneuver outside of that ship’s activation. A ship’s revealed maneuver is the maneuver selected on its dial, which remains faceup next to that ship’s ship card until the next Planning Phase.

◊ If a ship’s dial is not revealed, or it was not assigned a dial that round, that ship does not have a revealed maneuver.

So basically, its whatever the final maneuver selected on the dial is as it lays on your ship card, no matter what it was originally set to. You change the maneuver, what ever it was previously no longer matters for any game effects, as i suspected would be the case. 

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Which is also healthier in the context of N1 pilots that caused this uncertainty in the first place, and their interaction with the droid they're shipped with. Rather than being able to dial in crazy fast manouvres to win the "speed test" and then slow down to stay safe, they can only "step down" coming in faster than expected to outrun the enemy ships.

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