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Orkimedes

Invader League Update - Round Robin data and Elims Unit Mix

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22 minutes ago, smickletz said:

I actually view TTS games as adjacent to physically playing as opposed to congruent. Like using a flight simulator vs. flying a plane. I don’t have TTS at my disposal, but it doesn’t make me a lesser player. In my experience, TTS and Invader League seem to consider themselves the cream of the crop and that arrogance can be irritating. 

You're not the first person to say that - in fact the two statements often accompany each others - but it's not something I've ever actually seen.

I play TTS and on the table and don't find any "special skills" that apply in one and not the other. The exception would be mind games played with body language but I don't go for that stuff anyway.

You should give TTS a try - you'll find it much more welcoming and fun than you seem to think. It's just another way to get games in when your mates are busy - with the bonus that you get to chat and pay with people from all over the world.

What I think is true is that many of the people really dedicated to playing this game a lot and playing at the top level tournaments use TTS as one tool in their toolbag.

But don't worry, there are plenty of us plebians on there too!

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12 minutes ago, colki said:

You're not the first person to say that - in fact the two statements often accompany each others - but it's not something I've ever actually seen.

I play TTS and on the table and don't find any "special skills" that apply in one and not the other. The exception would be mind games played with body language but I don't go for that stuff anyway.

You should give TTS a try - you'll find it much more welcoming and fun than you seem to think. It's just another way to get games in when your mates are busy - with the bonus that you get to chat and pay with people from all over the world.

What I think is true is that many of the people really dedicated to playing this game a lot and playing at the top level tournaments use TTS as one tool in their toolbag.

But don't worry, there are plenty of us plebians on there too!

Yeah I play against a couple folks who use it regularly and they’re great. However, I’ve seen the ugly side more often. 

I agree the skill set isn’t different, but the comfort level certainly can be. It’s pretty tiring to play at a table for an extended time. 

Unfortunately I don’t have a TTS compatible device or I might dabble in it. 

I think it’s great to have TTS, especially for folks who have trouble finding opponents! I’m fortunate to have a good number of players locally. 

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39 minutes ago, colki said:

You should give TTS a try - you'll find it much more welcoming and fun than you seem to think. It's just another way to get games in when your mates are busy - with the bonus that you get to chat and pay with people from all over the world.

Is it easy to get into and quick to set up and play? 

It seems like it'd be fun, but I'm not always the most technically-minded person (I prefer console over computer for the accessibility), and my personal schedule is very tight, which make fitting in time for computer games pretty tricky as is. 

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2 hours ago, FearofaBlankPlanet said:

Is it easy to get into and quick to set up and play? 

It seems like it'd be fun, but I'm not always the most technically-minded person (I prefer console over computer for the accessibility), and my personal schedule is very tight, which make fitting in time for computer games pretty tricky as is. 

Hi Fear,

Yes, I found it fairly easy and the mod itself is exceptional - a lot of things are automated for you.

The best way is to get a learning game - there are friendly people on the Discord happy to help (use the #gamefinder channel)

I'll paste some links you might find useful below:

 

 

 

Tabletop simulator: http://store.steampowered.com/app/286160/Tabletop_Simulator/

TTSMod Link:https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1159576143&searchtext=legion

 

The discord: https://discord.gg/nPbhMj

 

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Posted (edited)
On 5/24/2019 at 5:18 PM, Derrault said:

Why do you think that other units can’t close range and shoot them?

Snipers are one of the most durable units in the game for their cost.  If you would like to feed me units (fast or otherwise), trying to kill them at close range, I'd be happy to accept their tasty points.

If you want some good tips on how to run snipers, there are plenty of solid guides out there, or you could watch some of the Invader League streams from the elimination rounds.

Edited by Orkimedes

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1 hour ago, Orkimedes said:

Snipers are one of the most durable units in the game for their cost.  If you would like to feed me units (fast or otherwise), trying to kill them at close range, I'd be happy to accept their tasty points.

If you want some good tips on how to run snipers, there are plenty of solid guides out there, or you could watch some of the Invader League streams from the elimination rounds.

In terms of durability, that’s just not the case.

Snipers white surge defense die and 2 hit points leads to an expected hits required of merely 3 (net 14.667 points spent per wound); and that’s before tacking on any upgrades.

For 44 points on Imperials you could have 4 wounds with a red defense die. (Expected hits required to eliminate, 8; worth approximately 6.5 points per wound. Even adding a heavy weapon and extra trooper is only 6.583 points per wound.

For a mere 40 points you could have 4 wounds with the same defense die + nimble. (Expected hits required without dodge, 6 (6.667 points per wound); with one dodge (5.714 points per wound; two dodges increases point efficiency per wound to 5)

Speeder bikes clock in at 10 points per wound even without factoring in their innate cover 1.

Even Darth Vader rates 12.5 points per wound (again, before deflect).

Ironically, you know what else is cheaper per point than a strike team for expected points per wound? A full team. 11.73 points per wound.

Strike teams are only superficially inexpensive; they’re not. For their points, they are quite fragile. 

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26 minutes ago, Derrault said:

In terms of durability, that’s just not the case.

Snipers white surge defense die and 2 hit points leads to an expected hits required of merely 3 (net 14.667 points spent per wound); and that’s before tacking on any upgrades.

For 44 points on Imperials you could have 4 wounds with a red defense die. (Expected hits required to eliminate, 8; worth approximately 6.5 points per wound. Even adding a heavy weapon and extra trooper is only 6.583 points per wound.

For a mere 40 points you could have 4 wounds with the same defense die + nimble. (Expected hits required without dodge, 6 (6.667 points per wound); with one dodge (5.714 points per wound; two dodges increases point efficiency per wound to 5)

Speeder bikes clock in at 10 points per wound even without factoring in their innate cover 1.

Even Darth Vader rates 12.5 points per wound (again, before deflect).

Ironically, you know what else is cheaper per point than a strike team for expected points per wound? A full team. 11.73 points per wound.

Strike teams are only superficially inexpensive; they’re not. For their points, they are quite fragile. 

I'm talking about in practical terms... are you corner peeking your sniper teams?

You have to shoot each one at least twice with an unlimited range weapon to eliminate it, not accounting for medics.  That is a very high opportunity cost.

Anyway... go watch some of the Adepticon or Invader Streams, to see this in action.

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39 minutes ago, Orkimedes said:

I'm talking about in practical terms... are you corner peeking your sniper teams?

You have to shoot each one at least twice with an unlimited range weapon to eliminate it, not accounting for medics.  That is a very high opportunity cost.

Anyway... go watch some of the Adepticon or Invader Streams, to see this in action.

Was I unclear previously when I stated that the hunter-killers can easily outflank and hit ‘both’ minis? I’m pretty sure it was written plainly. 

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7 hours ago, Derrault said:

Was I unclear previously when I stated that the hunter-killers can easily outflank and hit ‘both’ minis? I’m pretty sure it was written plainly. 

If the sniper-strike-team player doesn't mess up his deployment (assuming decent terrain in the board) the "hunter-killer" should be very exposed after this move in most cases. Trading away this hunter-killer for a strike team is inefficient pointwise.

Nobody says that the strike teams are made of hardened steel but they are very cheap activations that pressure the enemy from turn one (assuming no limited visability) without requiring you to take big risk (low point cost, infinite range, corner-peeking safespots).

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3 hours ago, AshAngel said:

If the sniper-strike-team player doesn't mess up his deployment (assuming decent terrain in the board) the "hunter-killer" should be very exposed after this move in most cases. Trading away this hunter-killer for a strike team is inefficient pointwise.

Nobody says that the strike teams are made of hardened steel but they are very cheap activations that pressure the enemy from turn one (assuming no limited visability) without requiring you to take big risk (low point cost, infinite range, corner-peeking safespots).

How so? Why wouldn’t the HK unit interpose terrain between themselves and any reasonable threat on the approach?

Assuming decent terrain there should be plenty of ground cover. The whole point is that it’s not a trade, the HK is capable of easily dropping the Strike team with virtually no return threat. 

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Derrault said:

How so? Why wouldn’t the HK unit interpose terrain between themselves and any reasonable threat on the approach?

Assuming decent terrain there should be plenty of ground cover. The whole point is that it’s not a trade, the HK is capable of easily dropping the Strike team with virtually no return threat. 

If such an approach is possible I would call it a misplacement of the sniper squad (or a bait to lure the expensive attacking unit away from the objective).

Btw, what are your "HK" units? I have trouble identifying a unit that can get close enough to well positioned sniper squads and delete them without being neutralized by nearby corps units, let alone Lukes/Bobas/Deathtroopers.

Also, it is nothing new, that if the table is heavily loaded with LOS-blocking elements Snipers lose their value. But, in this case their mine laying strike team brothers become stronger and stronger 😉

Edited by AshAngel

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Derrault said:

How so? Why wouldn’t the HK unit interpose terrain between themselves and any reasonable threat on the approach?

Assuming decent terrain there should be plenty of ground cover. The whole point is that it’s not a trade, the HK is capable of easily dropping the Strike team with virtually no return threat. 

Are you theory crafting here, or is this something you've actually executed in a competitive game?  That sounds like a grossly out of position sniper team.  And what are you considering a hunter-killer unit?

In all my games I can think of only a single time I've lost a sniper strike team to a unit that doesn't have unlimited range, and it cost my opponent two full DLT storm units.

I think both Sabine and Boba have some potential to pick off sniper strike teams that are out of position, which does happen; but that's definitely the exception rather than the rule and requires both a mistake by your opponent and skillful play on your part.

Edited by Orkimedes

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8 hours ago, AshAngel said:

If such an approach is possible I would call it a misplacement of the sniper squad (or a bait to lure the expensive attacking unit away from the objective).

Btw, what are your "HK" units? I have trouble identifying a unit that can get close enough to well positioned sniper squads and delete them without being neutralized by nearby corps units, let alone Lukes/Bobas/Deathtroopers.

Also, it is nothing new, that if the table is heavily loaded with LOS-blocking elements Snipers lose their value. But, in this case their mine laying strike team brothers become stronger and stronger 😉

I mentioned it earlier, the speeders are all zippy and ignore most terrain on every move. They’re also durable enough that it would require some serious misplay to put them in danger.

In a pinch anything with infiltrate, and scouts/commandos can do a similar job with the additional movement. Leia from the Rebels can also ruin their day turn 1, but as Orkimedes would be quick to point out, it does require a line of sight to both minis to maximize effectiveness (although starting out with only 1 mini is pretty devastating to their continued survival as well. 

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2 hours ago, Derrault said:

I mentioned it earlier, the speeders are all zippy and ignore most terrain on every move. They’re also durable enough that it would require some serious misplay to put them in danger.

In a pinch anything with infiltrate, and scouts/commandos can do a similar job with the additional movement. Leia from the Rebels can also ruin their day turn 1, but as Orkimedes would be quick to point out, it does require a line of sight to both minis to maximize effectiveness (although starting out with only 1 mini is pretty devastating to their continued survival as well. 

I've done this trick with a combination of Leia and Pathfinders, with Leia being able to see one model in a strike team unit and the Paths being able to see the other.  You then play CB and uplink the Paths.

It's expensive and difficult to set up against an experienced opponent, though.  Just taking your own snipers with medics or guardian is more reliable and cost effective as a sniper counter.

Bikes get shredded by bombardments, mainline infantry, and sharpshooter (including snipers, but notably also bounty hunters and Han).  I haven't seen anyone besides Nicky Myland running bikes effectively since the commando/scouts release.

The T-47 is grossly overpriced and also vulnerable to nearly everything (though the cover pilot helps with DLTs).

I think the X-34 landspeeder has some promise generally, but it also strikes me as overpriced, though not nearly as bad as the T-47.

If you are taking a flanking unit, I think you are probably just taking Sabine or Boba Fett, since they do so many other great things in addition to being able to potentially capitalize on sniper deployment mistakes.

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7 hours ago, Derrault said:

I mentioned it earlier, the speeders are all zippy and ignore most terrain on every move.

Here we go again. Great idea. Pay 200 hundred points to TRY to kill a sniper team of 44 points.

 

4 hours ago, Orkimedes said:

The T-47 is grossly overpriced and also vulnerable to nearly everything (though the cover pilot helps with DLTs).

I think the X-34 landspeeder has some promise generally, but it also strikes me as overpriced, though not nearly as bad as the T-47.

Good luck convincing him XD

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7 hours ago, Senjius said:

Here we go again. Great idea. Pay 200 hundred points to TRY to kill a sniper team of 44 points.

 

Good luck convincing him XD

It’s 175; (195 with a buzzer, which incidentally has the same average as a strike team for <50% of the points cost) and on average overkill’s the strike team, easily. More importantly, the Speeder is fast enough to actually attack a unit 4 feet away from wherever it starts (ie place correctly and you have a guaranteed target).

And, in terms of force preservation, if you sincerely believe that the 3 hypothetical enemy strike teams are going to cost you 18 wounds average over the course of the game (approximate value 237 points in corps) and they are so hard to displace using the other units...then...yes, yes it’s absolutely worth spending even 200 to prevent the 37 additional points of attrition.

But @DarkTrooperZero is inadvertently right, figuring that out would require using some fairly basic math skills. 

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I find it funny that the one person who demands thousands of games recorded in great detail to show statistically a unit isn't good (and even then would likely dismiss it because it wouldn't agree with his view) isn't capable of showing a single game in the same level of detail that his half baked ideas actually work.

In any case, you all need to stop trying to reason with him. You're playing chess with a pigeon.

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1 minute ago, Derrault said:

It’s 175; (195 with a buzzer, which incidentally has the same average as a strike team for <50% of the points cost) and on average overkill’s the strike team, easily. More importantly, the Speeder is fast enough to actually attack a unit 4 feet away from wherever it starts (ie place correctly and you have a guaranteed target).

And, in terms of force preservation, if you sincerely believe that the 3 hypothetical enemy strike teams are going to cost you 18 wounds average over the course of the game (approximate value 237 points in corps) and they are so hard to displace using the other units...then...yes, yes it’s absolutely worth spending even 200 to prevent the 37 additional points of attrition.

But @DarkTrooperZero is inadvertently right, figuring that out would require using some fairly basic math skills. 

Yes of course, you can move a lot and shoot at a target of your choice just to be shoot down easily afterwards. And you can say otherwise but your pattern of attack is not that great (T47 is a vehicle and cannot move sideways) so it is easy to get cover from you or just one hidden member of the strike team to laugh off your attack. Your secondary weapon is a bad joke and your best option is not to pay its cost. Less weight to the rock roped to your neck.

Finally if you do not understand that snipers are not played because of their lethality but because of the advantage given by the extra activations you need another conversation about the dynamics of this game.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, thepopemobile100 said:

I find it funny that the one person who demands thousands of games recorded in great detail to show statistically a unit isn't good (and even then would likely dismiss it because it wouldn't agree with his view) isn't capable of showing a single game in the same level of detail that his half baked ideas actually work.

In any case, you all need to stop trying to reason with him. You're playing chess with a pigeon.

Yeah, sorry... didn't realize I was walking into a T-47 discussion here.

Don't get me wrong, I want to T-47 to be great.  Its the first model I bought and painted, and I gave it a lot of table time.

Edited by Orkimedes

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4 hours ago, thepopemobile100 said:

I find it funny that the one person who demands thousands of games recorded in great detail to show statistically a unit isn't good (and even then would likely dismiss it because it wouldn't agree with his view) isn't capable of showing a single game in the same level of detail that his half baked ideas actually work.

In any case, you all need to stop trying to reason with him. You're playing chess with a pigeon.

I don’t use anecdotes because they’re not meaningful evidence. You might be easily swayed by such, but I’m also ethical enough to not take advantage of that.

I don’t know why you think I wouldn’t be swayed by thousands of games recorded in great detail. It’s not like you, or anyone else here, has presented such evidence to back a general claim that X is bad.

4 hours ago, Senjius said:

Yes of course, you can move a lot and shoot at a target of your choice just to be shoot down easily afterwards. And you can say otherwise but your pattern of attack is not that great (T47 is a vehicle and cannot move sideways) so it is easy to get cover from you or just one hidden member of the strike team to laugh off your attack. Your secondary weapon is a bad joke and your best option is not to pay its cost. Less weight to the rock roped to your neck.

Finally if you do not understand that snipers are not played because of their lethality but because of the advantage given by the extra activations you need another conversation about the dynamics of this game.

1) Strike teams effectively can’t even harm a 47. And they are generally no where near the bulk of the forces.

2) Cohesion requires them to be Speed 1 move apart at most, so they can’t be on the opposite sides of a high enough wall to block LOS for the 47, and the 47 is more than capable of swinging around cover to get its shot.

3) The secondary is 4 black dice, it averages 2 hits; that’s 1 wound expected. Enough that firing it twice pays for itself. If you can’t get 2+ shots for something this fast and maneuverable, the problem is user error. 

4 hours ago, Orkimedes said:

Yeah, sorry... didn't realize I was walking into a T-47 discussion here.

Don't get me wrong, I want to T-47 to be great.  Its the first model I bought and painted, and I gave it a lot of table time.

It’s not. We could just as easily be discussing speeder bikes, as they share the most important attributes: 1) Fast, 2) Able to traverse terrain so that they can use it for LOS blocking cover on the approach, and by to get a shot on the whole strike team.

The landspeeder is similar (albeit slower) and able to reach out and touch the strike team at a greater range. 

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12 hours ago, Derrault said:

1) Strike teams effectively can’t even harm a 47. And they are generally no where near the bulk of the forces.

2) Cohesion requires them to be Speed 1 move apart at most, so they can’t be on the opposite sides of a high enough wall to block LOS for the 47, and the 47 is more than capable of swinging around cover to get its shot.

3) The secondary is 4 black dice, it averages 2 hits; that’s 1 wound expected. Enough that firing it twice pays for itself. If you can’t get 2+ shots for something this fast and maneuverable, the problem is user error. 

1- They do not have to. And that is not true.

2.- Not true again.

3.- Do not average anything vs cover. Again, you just fly fast, you do not make area cover, walls and buildings disappear. User error is using the T47 pretending it will be a good idea for winning a game.

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4 hours ago, Senjius said:

1- They do not have to. And that is not true.

2.- Not true again.

3.- Do not average anything vs cover. Again, you just fly fast, you do not make area cover, walls and buildings disappear. User error is using the T47 pretending it will be a good idea for winning a game.

1) The rest of the forces are, usually, going to objectives, where they’ll be at risk of being fired on; the snipers are not. So, totally true. Have you yourself not seen them in action?

2) What part? The cohesion is in the rules, look it up. If you care to diagram a legal sniper deployment where it’s impossible for the 47 to get a view on both minis, by all means do so.

3) As I said, maneuver to remove cover before taking your shots. And you can go directly over them, and by virtue of height often see directly over them.

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So here's my personal experience from the round robin of IL and other games played on TTS.

Bossk is good for what he is.  I have never seen his presence or absence make or break a list. 

I've played against him about 8 times or so.  In half of those games he wasn't really much of a factor.  That doesn't mean he wasn't good or that he was inefficient.  It just means that the battle didn't revolve around him due to factors such as dice, placement, player skill etc.   

In the other half he was a factor.  Sometimes important, sometimes less important.  There's a lot to be said for being able to take a shot with 7 aim tokens.  

Personally I felt that Death Troopers and Medical droids had far more impact on the round robin than Bossk did.  

Medical droids also having outsized impact because players were able to run them in amounts that they would never actually purchase.  

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