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Listen to Tyler Parrott talk about game design

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Quick note: this is from a Keyforge podcast where Tyler is asked to discuss different design challenges.

With that said, there ends up being more discussion of L5R than Keyforge in this episode and gives a good look into Tyler's general wordview.

https://anchor.fm/kiramode/episodes/28-Banter-Session-Card-Game-Design-Insights-with-Tyler-Parrott-e42s41

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This is a very interesting interview. The highlights to me so far (I am 40 mins) are Crab are getting a new playstyle in cycle 3 (only 6 months for the cycle to develop...ugh), Crab have had no good cards made for them in ages which is why the best Crab decks have not changed, Tyler admits he was too conservative with Children of the Empire and can see some cards that would need just small tweaks to become viable. That last part, about Children missing the mark, is actual heartening for me to hear. Children was disappointing to my playgroup for its lack of impact but I am glad to hear a designer admit that it didn't go to plan.

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I'm personally okay with children since the cards aren't coasters. But there's definitely a number of cards that small stat boosts would mean the world. Personally I would prefer that when new mechanics get brought into a game they be on the conservative side initially and boosted up in later development than busted out of the gate and forced to get an errata.

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I personally think that the design of Children is alright, but I wouldn't call it good. Most of the cards were designed too conservativly, it promotes duelling (which is badly designed to begin with)  and Miromoto's Daisho and Emperor are activly bad for the game imo.

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2 hours ago, Ignithas said:

I personally think that the design of Children is alright, but I wouldn't call it good. Most of the cards were designed too conservativly, it promotes duelling (which is badly designed to begin with)  and Miromoto's Daisho and Emperor are activly bad for the game imo.

As some one whose been playing mainly Lion since core I'd argue that CotE was not so well balanced as the Lion cards were not nearly as strong as some of the other clans options.  Have you looked at Tacticians Camp.

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9 hours ago, Schmoozies said:

As some one whose been playing mainly Lion since core I'd argue that CotE was not so well balanced as the Lion cards were not nearly as strong as some of the other clans options.  Have you looked at Tacticians Camp.

 

1 hour ago, ZebioLizard2 said:

Tacticians camp felt like it was built for Crane, but given to Lion by mistake. Honestly that's pretty much Lion's cards in a nutshell.

In another interview Tyler stated something to the effect of Tacticians camp had a game warping effect and he slapped on a different effect at the end and admitted it was one of his biggest disappointments of the set.

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3 hours ago, Spawnod said:

 

In another interview Tyler stated something to the effect of Tacticians camp had a game warping effect and he slapped on a different effect at the end and admitted it was one of his biggest disappointments of the set.

I know, but a lot of the Lion cards in the set seem to share that issue.  Tsuko has 3 limiting conditions on her ability, our duelist was another 2/1/2 with Pride slap in the face, Glorious Victory is just bad.  There is so much over correction to keep Lion from being too "strong" that the clan is becoming all but unplayable.

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3 hours ago, Schmoozies said:

I know, but a lot of the Lion cards in the set seem to share that issue.  Tsuko has 3 limiting conditions on her ability, our duelist was another 2/1/2 with Pride slap in the face, Glorious Victory is just bad.  There is so much over correction to keep Lion from being too "strong" that the clan is becoming all but unplayable.

Which is probably what happened to Unicorn when designed for the Core Set.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Ser Nakata said:

Which is probably what happened to Unicorn when designed for the Core Set.

A ‘reaction’ of sorts if one looks at where Unicorn started originally in the first iteration of the game. (which is to say that they were OP, in my opinion) 

Edited by LordBlunt

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It really is irritating. It seems like nobody speaks for Lion on the team so when there's a strong card people are quick to slap a million modifiers to weaken it but there's players for Scorpion, Dragon, or Crane who otherwise get cool, strong cards which are quite playable straight off like Daidoji Uji.

Strong stats, powerful effect with an easy trigger within Crane proper to trigger for example.

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Posted (edited)

Lion is just in an awkward position of having their good stuff frontloaded and being thought to be fine - better than average so they ended up with the short end of the stick for their version of HMT and most of their cards during the elemental cycle.

They were competing with Unicorn for the swarm theme and Unicorn was so far behind they needed the help more.  Lion just kind of got swept u see the rug.

They'll be I the mix again as soon as they get their clan pack and the next dynasty cycle drops.

 

Edited by Ishi Tonu

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On 5/22/2019 at 12:15 PM, RafaelNN said:

Hopefully the lion clanpack will solve this, the same way the unicorn one did for them

Unicorn was brought up to where they should have been a year ago.

They're nowhere near competitive still. Crane and soon the Lion packs make Warriors of the Wind look silly.

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On 6/18/2019 at 8:19 PM, caseycheesecake said:

Unicorn was brought up to where they should have been a year ago.

They're nowhere near competitive still. Crane and soon the Lion packs make Warriors of the Wind look silly.

I would disagree with the sentiment that Warriors of the Wind look silly compared to Masters of the Court. It is right that Unicorn didn't get a card on the same level as Uji, but most cards in Masters of the Court are very niche. Warriors of the Wind has a lot of cards that are broader usefull. The biggest problem of Unicorn atm is not having Unleash the Djinn, because it would be an out to things Unicorn usually loses.

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29 minutes ago, Ignithas said:

I would disagree with the sentiment that Warriors of the Wind look silly compared to Masters of the Court. It is right that Unicorn didn't get a card on the same level as Uji, but most cards in Masters of the Court are very niche. Warriors of the Wind has a lot of cards that are broader usefull. The biggest problem of Unicorn atm is not having Unleash the Djinn, because it would be an out to things Unicorn usually loses.

I would also say Chagtai is a pretty powerful effect if you get him early.

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1 hour ago, Schmoozies said:

I would also say Chagtai is a pretty powerful effect if you get him early.

He is and he boosts Unicorn quite substantially. I think that Uji is better though.

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13 minutes ago, Ignithas said:

He is and he boosts Unicorn quite substantially. I think that Uji is better though.

The thing is they have both have big effects on Tempo, and if opponents don't have a way to deal with them will dictate the flow of a game very easily.  If you can't remove his honor tokens then Uji is a beast, but if you do (or even better drag him down to dishonored) he's a decent stated military character for Crane and that's it. 

Chagatai is very similar, he's a well stated threat that if opponents don't have an answer to when he hits the board will likely result in 2-3 provinces broken that turn and is the equivalent of 2-3 5 drops himself.  Its a high roll but a charged Chagatai on the Fire Ring is an 8/5 that opponents need to be able to deal with.  On HMT odds are he's coming for 3 provinces that turn and good chance he gets them all.

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8 hours ago, Schmoozies said:

The thing is they have both have big effects on Tempo, and if opponents don't have a way to deal with them will dictate the flow of a game very easily.  If you can't remove his honor tokens then Uji is a beast, but if you do (or even better drag him down to dishonored) he's a decent stated military character for Crane and that's it. 

Chagatai is very similar, he's a well stated threat that if opponents don't have an answer to when he hits the board will likely result in 2-3 provinces broken that turn and is the equivalent of 2-3 5 drops himself.  Its a high roll but a charged Chagatai on the Fire Ring is an 8/5 that opponents need to be able to deal with.  On HMT odds are he's coming for 3 provinces that turn and good chance he gets them all.

3 provinces is only likely if you attack into Ordu, because Unicorn has few buffs on pol. Like I said, Chag is really good. But Chag loses a lot of value when your oponent can deal with Charge or you don't see Chag first or second turn. Uji on the other hand gives Crane a better staying power, which helps them closing out games after their power spike in the early/mid game. Furthermore his mil stat makes him tower over almost everything that isn't a Crab char. The only clan against which you can't honor him is Scorp.

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3 hours ago, Ignithas said:

3 provinces is only likely if you attack into Ordu, because Unicorn has few buffs on pol. Like I said, Chag is really good. But Chag loses a lot of value when your oponent can deal with Charge or you don't see Chag first or second turn. Uji on the other hand gives Crane a better staying power, which helps them closing out games after their power spike in the early/mid game. Furthermore his mil stat makes him tower over almost everything that isn't a Crab char. The only clan against which you can't honor him is Scorp.

Honored Chags (which he should be due to the Fire Ring you took on your first attack) is 5 Political which is enough to deal with most provinces as your final attack of a turn.

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On 6/22/2019 at 4:31 AM, Schmoozies said:

Honored Chags (which he should be due to the Fire Ring you took on your first attack) is 5 Political which is enough to deal with most provinces as your final attack of a turn.

5 str, is often not enough to break a defended province.

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6 hours ago, Schmoozies said:

yeah but by 5th conflict they should be out of defenders

There shouldn't be 5 conflicts first turn against Unicorn if you can't defend the break on a 5 str. political conflict. Furthermore you most likely won't defend both or even one mil conflict when Chag is involved in the early game.

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