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Stan Fresh

After Padawan and Knight in Rise of the Separatists, what other Jedi specs could we get?

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Sure. I never said they were slouch. But I think people expect to play Obi-Wan in the Prequels. And that is not where your character starts. 

Unless, of course, the campaign starts at a heroic xp level. Nobody is stopping anyone from starting a 300+ xp game. I’d play.

Edited by AnomalousAuthor

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8 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Sure. I never said they were slouch. But I think people expect to play Obi-Wan in the Prequels. And that is not where your character starts. 

The game tells you to imagine Obi-Wan from A New Hope, and you can't do that, though. So there's a mismatch in what the game itself is telling you. That's a problem.

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2 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

The game tells you to imagine Obi-Wan from A New Hope, and you can't do that, though. So there's a mismatch in what the game itself is telling you. That's a problem.

Yes you can. Yoh can do everything you see in a new hope. You are acting like you want to see revenge of the sith obiwan being in a new hope. And that certainly cant be done.

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2 hours ago, TyrisFlare said:

Free-form talents may let you easily pick up your saber style of choice and focus on one characteristic, but it becomes almost impossible to stack high ranks of Parry/Reflect/Toughness etc. You really, really have to pay for that extra damage reduction and WT. Compare that to normal where you can pretty cheaply dip into several specs to snag a bunch of ranks in all of this stuff (a colossus who dips into a few other specs can survive a thermal detonator to the face). I don't think a single major lore character in Allies and Adversaries has more than 20 WP, and most of the uber Jedi have 4-5 ranks in Reflect/Parry tops.

As far as Force powers go, restructuring them to work without giant XP dumps is also not necessarily about power. I would rather have Move just be weaker in terms of damage (no dumping a 30 damage vehicle on people's heads early in the game) but actually be usable, even at a weak level, because these kinds of things are what make someone feel like a Jedi even if it isn't a huge game impact. Having a low-XP character be able to telekinesis a toolbox across the room or jump an extra 5 meters or even fire off a 5 damage Force Lightning is hardly game-breaking. The key is pulling back on the scaling, which the vanilla game is actually pretty bad about. It encourages people to dump tons of XP into one power and become one-trick ponies rather than holistic characters.

I'm not sure if I would dismiss the escalating cost of adding new specs as a "pretty cheap" option to get a lot of ranks in particular talents. The cost of just getting "a few other specs" is upwards of 100 XP just to be able to spend further XP on the talents you want, which is not trivial, especially if you're earning it 20 XP per session. In my experience, players go for a second spec fairly early, but it takes a while for them to go for a third, because dumping 30-40 XP for no immediate benefit is a hard sell when you could be getting closer to that Dedication/Force Rating/capstone talent.

I also don't get the obsession with the characteristic-switch style talents, but that might be because no non-Force using archetype gets to have their cake and eat it too in that fashion. The Spy's Infiltrator spec doesn't get a talent to switch Melee to Agility just so they can put their stabby on the same characteristic as their sneaky. Commanders and Diplomats don't get to shoot people with Presence, nor do Engineers get to snipe you with Intellect. About the only archetype that does get it all in one place is pilots, but if you ask me that's just compensation for how often the pilot skillset gets sidelined for the majority of an adventure in a mixed group. Why should Jedi get an easy ticket out of multi-attribute dependency?

As for what you're asking for with Force power, low-XP characters can already do all that. Basic Move can telekinesis a toolbox across a room and that's 10 XP (5 with the Mentor discount). Basic Harm does Intellect level damage ignoring soak, which, taking into account that most beings you'll fight have at least two soak, is at least worth 5 damage (or you can get the same effect from Move again for a maximum of 25 XP by tossing a 0 silhouette object). You can dump a lot of XP on upgrading a Force power, sure, but you don't need to if all you're trying to do is get the basic feel of being a Force user.

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Kaigen said:

I'm not sure if I would dismiss the escalating cost of adding new specs as a "pretty cheap" option to get a lot of ranks in particular talents. The cost of just getting "a few other specs" is upwards of 100 XP just to be able to spend further XP on the talents you want, which is not trivial, especially if you're earning it 20 XP per session. In my experience, players go for a second spec fairly early, but it takes a while for them to go for a third, because dumping 30-40 XP for no immediate benefit is a hard sell when you could be getting closer to that Dedication/Force Rating/capstone talent.

I also don't get the obsession with the characteristic-switch style talents, but that might be because no non-Force using archetype gets to have their cake and eat it too in that fashion. The Spy's Infiltrator spec doesn't get a talent to switch Melee to Agility just so they can put their stabby on the same characteristic as their sneaky. Commanders and Diplomats don't get to shoot people with Presence, nor do Engineers get to snipe you with Intellect. About the only archetype that does get it all in one place is pilots, but if you ask me that's just compensation for how often the pilot skillset gets sidelined for the majority of an adventure in a mixed group. Why should Jedi get an easy ticket out of multi-attribute dependency?

As for what you're asking for with Force power, low-XP characters can already do all that. Basic Move can telekinesis a toolbox across a room and that's 10 XP (5 with the Mentor discount). Basic Harm does Intellect level damage ignoring soak, which, taking into account that most beings you'll fight have at least two soak, is at least worth 5 damage (or you can get the same effect from Move again for a maximum of 25 XP by tossing a 0 silhouette object). You can dump a lot of XP on upgrading a Force power, sure, but you don't need to if all you're trying to do is get the basic feel of being a Force user.

Except the opportunity cost for dipping into all those powers just to do basic Jedi stuff is very high and honestly not really worth it compared to maxing out one power (aka, Move). But yes, it is possible, I just think the progression could be a lot better without having the terrible scaling issues (throwing freighters and so forth). 

But aside from that, Genesys has characteristic swap talents for melee (Agi, Cunning) and ranged (Cunning). It actually makes the party a lot more diverse, in my opinion, because people can contribute more in combat while still bringing other stuff to the table. Having B and A being the only true combat characteristics is actually quite boring imo. Agi is so dominant it's just very tempting for almost everyone to make it at least their 3 stat at the start. 

Having your mechanic or rogue or whatever spend some Xp to be better with a blaster does not break the game at all. The Brawn character still ends up with considerably more survivability, and Agi has lots of other good skills. 

E: Also, the Spy book just added a way to swap Cunning for Presence on Charm checks (and some others, iirc). 

Edited by TyrisFlare

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46 minutes ago, TyrisFlare said:

Except the opportunity cost for dipping into all those powers just to do basic Jedi stuff is very high and honestly not really worth it compared to maxing out one power (aka, Move). But yes, it is possible, I just think the progression could be a lot better without having the terrible scaling issues (throwing freighters and so forth). 

But aside from that, Genesys has characteristic swap talents for melee (Agi, Cunning) and ranged (Cunning). It actually makes the party a lot more diverse, in my opinion, because people can contribute more in combat while still bringing other stuff to the table. Having B and A being the only true combat characteristics is actually quite boring imo. Agi is so dominant it's just very tempting for almost everyone to make it at least their 3 stat at the start. 

Having your mechanic or rogue or whatever spend some Xp to be better with a blaster does not break the game at all. The Brawn character still ends up with considerably more survivability, and Agi has lots of other good skills. 

E: Also, the Spy book just added a way to swap Cunning for Presence on Charm checks (and some others, iirc). 

I dont think the throwing freighters is the problem people act like it is. Because in order to do so reliably requires a signifigant investment in order to get the number of force points needed to make the throw along with the requisite number of force power options plus the skills needed to actually accomplish the task. which likely puts the character in the 3 to 500 point range. which at that point doing crazy stuff like that is reasonable.

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53 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

That's rubbish. I'm not doing that at all.

But you are. Because you act like Obiwan had super powers in the first movie.  What all did he do? He healed Luke. He used influence on some storm troopers a couple times. he lopped off a guys arm with a lightsaber. All things a starting character can do in Force and Destiny with a starting character. And if you are familiar with what a perishable skill is I would posit the force is a perishable skill. So he is not where he was in Revenge of the Sith.

If that is not what you mean then you are going to have to be more specific.

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

A starting character cannot achieve *all* these things *consistently*.

You are going to have to be more specific. As so far i still have no idea what your actual complaint is.

Edited by Daeglan

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9 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

Frankly, I won't. You're just going to reply with the same line. shame on me for falling for it.

I am trying to understand your complaint and tried to address it but you have said i didnt so I am asking for specifics because so far you have been super vague in what your actual complaint is.

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9 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

Frankly, I won't. You're just going to reply with the same line. shame on me for falling for it.

I am trying to understand your complaint and tried to address it but you have said i didnt so I am asking for specifics because so far you have been super vague in what your actual complaint is.

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Posted (edited)

Starting character in Force and Destiny with "knight level play" Human 110 XP +150, any morality.... I will take Artisan to start, one of the ones people consider to be the weakest.

2B, 2A, 4I, 3C, 2W, 2P (100XP spent 160 left)
1 Rank Lightsaber, 1 Rank Negotiation (non-career skills) Human
2 Ranks computers, 1 rank Mechanics, 1 Rank Skullduggery, 1 Rank Stealth

70Xp spent to reach FR2, (90 XP left)
Force powers, Influence 20 XP (10 for base, 10 for control to make people believe untrue.) (70 XP left)
Misdirection 25 xp (15 for base power 5 for range 5 for control) (55 XP left)
Foresight 20 xp (10 for base, 10 for initiative) 35 xp left
Force Heal 15 xp (base power) 20 XP left
Spend last 20 as you want, and this is "obi-wan" who was one of the most powerful jedi knights of all time and a legend in the clone wars and he is coming the END of his adventures. He is an "end of career, end of adventures NPC" not a player character. Start of campaign characters are closer to Luke in ANH or even Obi in Episode I.... who's only powers he shows off are enhance, foresight and maybe sense, the rest of it is all in saber skills which you can definitely do in this system.

But for the sake of argument and getting what most people think of as a jedi character..... Start Padawan, 75Xp to get FR2, spend 20 to get knight, 30 to get Move, enhance and sense... 25 xp to go from there as you see fit. Just give me a Jedi character concept, and I will give you a 150 xp route to begin that jedi's journey... not end it he will have room to grow, but if you want a jedi pilot I got you, a jedi mechanic, I got you, a saber wielder I got you, an all arounder.... I got you....

Edit: actually better is Consular sage and it can be done with far less and works far better and more consistently... for obi.

Edited by tunewalker

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Posted (edited)

Congratulations, by using an optional bonus XP bump to create a character who can, on occasion but far from consistently, deliver something vaguely approaching the accomplishments the book suggests you'll be able to achieve, you've shown that the mechanics don't deliver on the core book's promise.

You're doing the equivalent of arguing that the Force power system isn't granular because there are optional freeform rules in Unlimited Power.

 

Edited by Stan Fresh

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7 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

Congratulations, by using an optional bonus XP bump to create a character who can, on occasion but far from consistently, deliver something vaguely approaching the accomplishments the book suggests you'll be able to achieve, you've shown that the mechanics don't deliver on the core book's promise.

You're doing the equivalent of arguing that the Force power system isn't granular because there are optional freeform rules in Unlimited Power.

 

What exactly are you looking for? Because so far you still have not defined what you want. And with out that I can't tell if you have screwed up expectations or what? Because near as I can tell you can accomplish everything the book promises. Will you be able to do it 100% of the time? No. But that would be really boring. Please define your complaint.

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48 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

Stop badgering. I've told you I'm not doing this with you.

 

Yeah I get it. You are going to make vague complaints that no one can address or discuss. Which begs the question why complain?

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20 hours ago, Kaigen said:

I'm not sure if I would dismiss the escalating cost of adding new specs as a "pretty cheap" option to get a lot of ranks in particular talents. The cost of just getting "a few other specs" is upwards of 100 XP just to be able to spend further XP on the talents you want, which is not trivial, especially if you're earning it 20 XP per session. In my experience, players go for a second spec fairly early, but it takes a while for them to go for a third, because dumping 30-40 XP for no immediate benefit is a hard sell when you could be getting closer to that Dedication/Force Rating/capstone talent.

I also don't get the obsession with the characteristic-switch style talents, but that might be because no non-Force using archetype gets to have their cake and eat it too in that fashion. The Spy's Infiltrator spec doesn't get a talent to switch Melee to Agility just so they can put their stabby on the same characteristic as their sneaky. Commanders and Diplomats don't get to shoot people with Presence, nor do Engineers get to snipe you with Intellect. About the only archetype that does get it all in one place is pilots, but if you ask me that's just compensation for how often the pilot skillset gets sidelined for the majority of an adventure in a mixed group. Why should Jedi get an easy ticket out of multi-attribute dependency?

As for what you're asking for with Force power, low-XP characters can already do all that. Basic Move can telekinesis a toolbox across a room and that's 10 XP (5 with the Mentor discount). Basic Harm does Intellect level damage ignoring soak, which, taking into account that most beings you'll fight have at least two soak, is at least worth 5 damage (or you can get the same effect from Move again for a maximum of 25 XP by tossing a 0 silhouette object). You can dump a lot of XP on upgrading a Force power, sure, but you don't need to if all you're trying to do is get the basic feel of being a Force user.

The only "jedi" that get an easy ticket out of multiple attribute dependency have niman-disciple  and padawan survivor (for the secrets of the jedi and improved  talents).  High willpower is pretty much a requirement for any jedi.  And they "need" to be build a lightsaber/mod a crystal.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

Congratulations, by using an optional bonus XP bump to create a character who can, on occasion but far from consistently, deliver something vaguely approaching the accomplishments the book suggests you'll be able to achieve, you've shown that the mechanics don't deliver on the core book's promise.

You're doing the equivalent of arguing that the Force power system isn't granular because there are optional freeform rules in Unlimited Power.

 

I am not using Unlimited power I am using nothing but core rulebook or the rise of the seperatist book, but sure I can use just Core rule book. Also I can perform everyone of the powers listed there consistently... like 100% of the time consistently. There are 2 force dice... and they have 0 blanks which means the bare minimum number of force points you can generate with every roll is 2..yes I have to use the dark side and flip a destiny point, but I can still do it 100% of the time and 1 conflict is basically nothing if you aren't a murder hobo or a jerk to everyone. Also Page 322 "Knight level Play.... .In force and destiny advanced characters and adventurers are called 'knight level'. Knight-level play represents PC's on the cusp of reaching the skill level of a jedi knight, while still giving them plenty of room to grow and improve"

So unless you are starting at Knight level play a Force and destiny character was never designed to be even remotely close to a Jedi. Only at knight level play do you even APPROACH the skills of a jedi and even then you are not full on Jedi level yet. So the book does as it promises as I can build just about any Jedi-ish character I want with 150 Xp and have them still have room to grow into full blown jedi in another 150.... or a full campaign. If you do not believe me just ask what kind of jedi do you want and I will build it with Jedi Knight level play. They wont be perfect they will still have room to grow, but they will do and they will accomplish a good amount of what a jedi could.

Edited by tunewalker

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4 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

The only "jedi" that get an easy ticket out of multiple attribute dependency have niman-disciple  and padawan survivor (for the secrets of the jedi and improved  talents).  High willpower is pretty much a requirement for any jedi.  And they "need" to be build a lightsaber/mod a crystal.

When I was building my Scoundrel/Force Exile I just had to accept that I wasn’t going to have a 4 in any attribute if I wanted to realize the concept I was going for. The game didn’t last long, but I was eventually going to cross spec into Shien Expert and Shadow from the Sentinel career. This obviously never occurred but until I got to Shien Technique I was going to be rocking a 2 brawn and, if I even had a lightsaber at that point, just making up for it with skill rankings in lightsaber. Shame the game never lasted beyond about 5 sessions, because I was looking forward to exploring this character. But, alas that is ttrpgs for the most part.

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2 minutes ago, AnomalousAuthor said:

When I was building my Scoundrel/Force Exile I just had to accept that I wasn’t going to have a 4 in any attribute if I wanted to realize the concept I was going for. The game didn’t last long, but I was eventually going to cross spec into Shien Expert and Shadow from the Sentinel career. This obviously never occurred but until I got to Shien Technique I was going to be rocking a 2 brawn and, if I even had a lightsaber at that point, just making up for it with skill rankings in lightsaber. Shame the game never lasted beyond about 5 sessions, because I was looking forward to exploring this character. But, alas that is ttrpgs for the most part.

Kind of curious why you didn't start out as shadow from the word go as it may have been cheaper on the xp.... but I dont know the character concept so maybe that was the best way. I have also seen people just put 1 stat to 4 and then just spend xp on skills and talents from there. 

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6 minutes ago, tunewalker said:

Kind of curious why you didn't start out as shadow from the word go as it may have been cheaper on the xp.... but I dont know the character concept so maybe that was the best way. I have also seen people just put 1 stat to 4 and then just spend xp on skills and talents from there. 

The concept seems to require high cunning and intellect, and willpower is likely too (because almost every force sensitive build requires that), not sure about presence or agility.   Point is that M.A.D. is at work

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

The concept seems to require high cunning and intellect, and willpower is likely too (because almost every force sensitive build requires that), not sure about presence or agility.   Point is that M.A.D. is at work

I am getting that kind of, I am curious if there was not a way that could have been done without having 3's in some of those stats.... Because the agility can be covered by Enhance, the willpower can just be covered by high discipline technically, and depending on what you need the intellect for with the introduction of the manipulate force power from the sentinel source book you might be able to get it without using anything besides that base power.... but core rulebook wise it would be needed. I am just curious as to what skills were needed and wanted and how dark/ light the character was because depending you could get pretty far I think without having to get higher will or physical abilities or you may be able to take a hit to intellect and physical abilities and still achieve the overall concept or close to it.

Edited by tunewalker

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18 minutes ago, tunewalker said:

Kind of curious why you didn't start out as shadow from the word go as it may have been cheaper on the xp.... but I dont know the character concept so maybe that was the best way. I have also seen people just put 1 stat to 4 and then just spend xp on skills and talents from there. 

It was indeed due to the character concept. The GM advised any force sensitives to keep it a secret, even from other players, so I wanted to start off with low key force abilities. Starting off as a Shadow, while not expressly outlawed by the GM, wasn’t really an option I was interested in. 

I’m also not overly concerned about character optimization as a player. 

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