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Archlyte

Order Sixty-Six & Jedi slack response

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2 minutes ago, Archlyte said:

Well if only that book had been written in 2005, maybe George would have read it and it would have explained away all of these concerns. 

You’re going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point in the release schedule.

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3 hours ago, Archlyte said:

Also the Jedi were not the actual government were they? Seems to me like it was supposed to be a democracy. 

Well, it becomes an issue when the Jedi order actively supports and upholds the republic, despite the republic allowing slavery. Doing the right thing would be turning their back on the republic or at least not actively supporting it.

Of course, that might mean that they in turn lose the support of the republic, meaning that suddenly they have to pay rent for a prime piece of real estate on Coruscant, buy their own starfighters and do their recruiting without government support. It's a fair argument to make that the order will do more good in the galaxy by accepting the bad stuff about the republic political machine, but it also means that you've taken a step onto the slippery slope.

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2 minutes ago, penpenpen said:

Well, it becomes an issue when the Jedi order actively supports and upholds the republic, despite the republic allowing slavery. Doing the right thing would be turning their back on the republic or at least not actively supporting it.

Of course, that might mean that they in turn lose the support of the republic, meaning that suddenly they have to pay rent for a prime piece of real estate on Coruscant, buy their own starfighters and do their recruiting without government support. It's a fair argument to make that the order will do more good in the galaxy by accepting the bad stuff about the republic political machine, but it also means that you've taken a step onto the slippery slope.

Are the Jedi like college kids now? What would it take for the Jedi to end slavery in the whole Galaxy? Take over the government, impose law on all areas and cultures, enforce those laws by use of force if need be. Or if not that should they have quit and just said we won't be a part of any government that is not absolutely perfect. #holdingourbreath4lightside

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5 minutes ago, penpenpen said:

Well, it becomes an issue when the Jedi order actively supports and upholds the republic, despite the republic allowing slavery. Doing the right thing would be turning their back on the republic or at least not actively supporting it.

Of course, that might mean that they in turn lose the support of the republic, meaning that suddenly they have to pay rent for a prime piece of real estate on Coruscant, buy their own starfighters and do their recruiting without government support. It's a fair argument to make that the order will do more good in the galaxy by accepting the bad stuff about the republic political machine, but it also means that you've taken a step onto the slippery slope.

Especially if you dont use that sacrifice to actually move the Republic away from problematic practices...It feels like they kept kicking that can down the road...

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I can't remember the source but something else I once read about the Jedi's power diminishing was because of their great numbers. You have 10,000+ people calling upon the Force and there can only be so much to go around.

Palpatine had more power because he called upon the dark side and there was more of that to go around.

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6 hours ago, Archlyte said:

Are the Jedi like college kids now? What would it take for the Jedi to end slavery in the whole Galaxy? Take over the government, impose law on all areas and cultures, enforce those laws by use of force if need be. Or if not that should they have quit and just said we won't be a part of any government that is not absolutely perfect. #holdingourbreath4lightside

Well, that's the kicker, compromise with the basis of your beliefs and perhaps your beliefs-based powers diminish?

The Jedi philosophy never really struck me as a "do what is right, unless inconvenient" type of philosophy. Failing to follow through on this doesn't make the Jedi morally bankrupt, but when you stand up for a republic that has glaring faults, maybe it's a source of, I dunno... conflict.

Had the Jedi taken a hard stance against slavery it might've pushed the republic to deal with it.

Also, the dismissive and mocking attitude towards people who set ideals over practicality isn't really doing you any favours if you're trying to come off as a somewhat decent  ******* human being.

And no, failing to do so should not be considered a badge of honor.

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7 hours ago, MrTInce said:

I can't remember the source but something else I once read about the Jedi's power diminishing was because of their great numbers. You have 10,000+ people calling upon the Force and there can only be so much to go around.

Palpatine had more power because he called upon the dark side and there was more of that to go around.

So like conservation of ninja power?

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4 hours ago, penpenpen said:

Also, the dismissive and mocking attitude towards people who set ideals over practicality isn't really doing you any favours if you're trying to come off as a somewhat decent  ******* human being.

Shrugging off slavery as a minor inconvenience worth ignoring for the greater good shows great character, too.

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9 hours ago, MrTInce said:

I can't remember the source but something else I once read about the Jedi's power diminishing was because of their great numbers. You have 10,000+ people calling upon the Force and there can only be so much to go around.

Palpatine had more power because he called upon the dark side and there was more of that to go around.

I don't really like this explanation but I think you are on solid ground with it. We have seen some evidence that this may be the case. 

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1 minute ago, Archlyte said:

I don't really like this explanation but I think you are on solid ground with it. We have seen some evidence that this may be the case. 

There were time periods where massive numbers of Jedi fought hordes of Sith but their powers didn't falter.

The Force is infinite and any failing in employing it is operator error.

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6 hours ago, penpenpen said:

Well, that's the kicker, compromise with the basis of your beliefs and perhaps your beliefs-based powers diminish?

The Jedi philosophy never really struck me as a "do what is right, unless inconvenient" type of philosophy. Failing to follow through on this doesn't make the Jedi morally bankrupt, but when you stand up for a republic that has glaring faults, maybe it's a source of, I dunno... conflict.

Had the Jedi taken a hard stance against slavery it might've pushed the republic to deal with it.

Also, the dismissive and mocking attitude towards people who set ideals over practicality isn't really doing you any favours if you're trying to come off as a somewhat decent  ******* human being.

And no, failing to do so should not be considered a badge of honor.

Everyone is an idealist until put to the actual task of governing. Turns out that this is not a simple solution type of problem but that seems to escape people because they get focused on the moral problem. As I said before how would they have accomplished this? My guess is that attempting to do it by themselves in a hurry would probably have torn the Republic apart and allowed even worse factions to run wild. Also what about the balance of the Force? 

You can believe something is wrong and not be able to stop it. You don't have to commit suicide because of that awareness. The Jedi might have been playing a long game, might have been working on subtle pressures and actions to make things as good as they could be. The problem of evil as presented in philosophy, essentially that the world is as good as it could possibly be and still have free will. 

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4 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

There were time periods where massive numbers of Jedi fought hordes of Sith but their powers didn't falter.

The Force is infinite and any failing in employing it is operator error.

The Emperor is like one guy and can completely block anyone from seeing him as a bad guy. Rey and Kylo Ren are super powerful for some reason. I don't like this explanation or say ti is correct but I feel it's one possible interpretation given the material in the movies.

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Ahh, you may have stumbled on something here.  Maybe the Force is only nearly infinite.  When you have thousands of Jedi and Sith running around, only a few would stand out but as you have less and less people pulling from the Force it has more to give those people who can interact with it.  So by the time Luke cuts himself off from the Force, Kylo and Rey get a Force booster shot making them stronger than those who had come before.

Just speculation but something I may use in my game at some point.

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35 minutes ago, Archlyte said:

The Emperor is like one guy and can completely block anyone from seeing him as a bad guy. Rey and Kylo Ren are super powerful for some reason. I don't like this explanation or say ti is correct but I feel it's one possible interpretation given the material in the movies.

Does the Emperor block anything or does he just not do anything evil in public. Do Jedi have the ability to detect latent evil or only currently active negative thoughts & emotions?

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2 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Does the Emperor block anything or does he just not do anything evil in public. Do Jedi have the ability to detect latent evil or only currently active negative thoughts & emotions?

I don't know. But based on what you were saying about the sources of information I am kind of thinking about this stuff a bit differently now. It's kind of a big mess lol. 

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2 hours ago, Archlyte said:

I don't know. But based on what you were saying about the sources of information I am kind of thinking about this stuff a bit differently now. It's kind of a big mess lol. 

Because no one ever laid out any definitive definitions.  Every movie, every show, every book tweaks it a little.  Each piece of media gives us a different perspective, a different assumption by a different author.

While the wiping of the EU cleaned the slate, we're quickly heading down a similar path.  You can find stark contradictions to established lore pretty easily at this point.

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, kmanweiss said:

Because no one ever laid out any definitive definitions.  Every movie, every show, every book tweaks it a little.  Each piece of media gives us a different perspective, a different assumption by a different author.

While the wiping of the EU cleaned the slate, we're quickly heading down a similar path.  You can find stark contradictions to established lore pretty easily at this point.

Yeah I agree and it is kind of obvious to me now that it's a dumb thing to try and lay down as some sort of unified explanation across multiple people who have their own views of what these things are. To me the EU and extra material is all really dubious and thin but I am in the minority on that. If I can dismiss it then I have to be willing to accept that others don't. 

Edited by Archlyte

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4 hours ago, Archlyte said:

Everyone is an idealist until put to the actual task of governing.

Indeed. So the Jedi should never have gotten involved with governing. First step on a slippery slope.

4 hours ago, Archlyte said:

Turns out that this is not a simple solution type of problem but that seems to escape people because they get focused on the moral problem. As I said before how would they have accomplished this? My guess is that attempting to do it by themselves in a hurry would probably have torn the Republic apart and allowed even worse factions to run wild. Also what about the balance of the Force? 

It's not necessarily for the Jedi to take it on themselves to end slavery. They're not the government. When they tie themselves to a government that tolerates it, they themselves tolerate it. This isn't necessarily morally damning in itself. However, compromising with your moral core might perhaps mess with your ability to use your emotions to to tell the laws of physics to sit down and shut up while you do your thing.

4 hours ago, Archlyte said:

You can believe something is wrong and not be able to stop it. You don't have to commit suicide because of that awareness. The Jedi might have been playing a long game, might have been working on subtle pressures and actions to make things as good as they could be. The problem of evil as presented in philosophy, essentially that the world is as good as it could possibly be and still have free will. 

The fact that the Jedi even had to consider whether to play the long game or not shows that they had taken a wrong turn. If you can't govern without moral compromises, the Jedi messed up by trying to govern. In the end, they became a government entity and gained a ton of power and influence, but perhaps, it also diminished their ability to wield to force.

Also, "playing the long game" and other types of gradualism is in many cases just empty promises made in order to not rock the boat. It's a lesser evil, not a lesser good.

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44 minutes ago, penpenpen said:

Indeed. So the Jedi should never have gotten involved with governing. First step on a slippery slope.

It's not necessarily for the Jedi to take it on themselves to end slavery. They're not the government. When they tie themselves to a government that tolerates it, they themselves tolerate it. This isn't necessarily morally damning in itself. However, compromising with your moral core might perhaps mess with your ability to use your emotions to to tell the laws of physics to sit down and shut up while you do your thing.

The fact that the Jedi even had to consider whether to play the long game or not shows that they had taken a wrong turn. If you can't govern without moral compromises, the Jedi messed up by trying to govern. In the end, they became a government entity and gained a ton of power and influence, but perhaps, it also diminished their ability to wield to force.

Also, "playing the long game" and other types of gradualism is in many cases just empty promises made in order to not rock the boat. It's a lesser evil, not a lesser good.

Did slavery in the Republic suddenly appear? My long game strategy idea may be no good because of this, but I realized the Jedi and Republic go back a long way (15,000 years?) and at one time the Jedi even had military ranks and a mission that was militaristic as well. Why did this moral bill you speak of only come due in the Clone Wars era? Also shouldn't the Jedi have eradicated the Hutts because they are pretty much the definition of evil? How could the Jedi be associated with the Republic when the Hutts were allowed to operate their slave trade and all of their other evil doings. The Republic should have been mobilized to eradicate the Hutt domain.  

This idea that a government of free citizens can fix everything is a childish notion. 

Also the Galaxy would have been a boring place to set stories if this sort of Utopian ideal were realized. 

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6 minutes ago, Archlyte said:

at one time the Jedi even had military ranks and a mission that was militaristic as well

That's EU stuff,  not mouse-canon, isn't it?

In the movies it's clear that the Jedi haven't acted as a military before.

 

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22 minutes ago, Archlyte said:

Did slavery in the Republic suddenly appear? My long game strategy idea may be no good because of this, but I realized the Jedi and Republic go back a long way (15,000 years?) and at one time the Jedi even had military ranks and a mission that was militaristic as well. Why did this moral bill you speak of only come due in the Clone Wars era? Also shouldn't the Jedi have eradicated the Hutts because they are pretty much the definition of evil? How could the Jedi be associated with the Republic when the Hutts were allowed to operate their slave trade and all of their other evil doings. The Republic should have been mobilized to eradicate the Hutt domain.  

This idea that a government of free citizens can fix everything is a childish notion. 

Also the Galaxy would have been a boring place to set stories if this sort of Utopian ideal were realized. 

Well it is complicated. From what I can tell is slavery is not "OK" in the republic. But there are major loop holes. And that is the issue. And the Jedi did nothing to deal with this issue. But after finishing Master and Apprentice I found the corporation to have a cartoonish reasoning that was super lame. Like Mustache twirly evil but dumb about it. It needed a more nuanced reasoning than given.

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A planetary government would have trouble maintaining total control. A government the size of the Republic that is composed of constituent offenders would be nearly unfathomable in its size and scope, and would be dealing with so many different cultures and psychologies that organizing coherent policy and enacting it would be like trying to wrestle water. 

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9 minutes ago, Archlyte said:

A planetary government would have trouble maintaining total control. A government the size of the Republic that is composed of constituent offenders would be nearly unfathomable in its size and scope, and would be dealing with so many different cultures and psychologies that organizing coherent policy and enacting it would be like trying to wrestle water. 

yeah the Republic probably seriously needed to be federalized with more control shifted to the "States" And the central authority mostly for managing disputes and galaxy wide issues.

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17 hours ago, MrTInce said:

I can't remember the source but something else I once read about the Jedi's power diminishing was because of their great numbers. You have 10,000+ people calling upon the Force and there can only be so much to go around.

Palpatine had more power because he called upon the dark side and there was more of that to go around.

 

7 hours ago, Archlyte said:

The Emperor is like one guy and can completely block anyone from seeing him as a bad guy. Rey and Kylo Ren are super powerful for some reason. I don't like this explanation or say ti is correct but I feel it's one possible interpretation given the material in the movies.

This was. Sith philosophy. They believed that the Force was a finite resource that needed to be hoarded. However, as others have pointed out, this is just not true. The Force is infinite. It doesn’t diminish the more individuals tapping into it. It thrives on life. The more life, the greater the Force. 

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