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Archlyte

Order Sixty-Six & Jedi slack response

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Posted (edited)

So wait, the Jedi lost their power because they got involved in politics and tradition? WTF. Did that ever weaken them in any other era of the Lore when they were fighting the Sith Empire or any other foe? 

Edited by Archlyte

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1 hour ago, Archlyte said:

I don't know what the source material is but the thing about Jedi is that they don't have normal reactions to danger and threat. Yes they are not perfect but the idea that they survived battles with tons of stuff shooting at them and ambushing them but really just went down like sacks when clones did the same thing isn't something that makes sense to me. It's very convenient for the story of course, but it makes the Jedi into normal folks with lightsabers.

Adding in some in-game terms: According to Master and Apprentice, Foreseeing is a rare power among CW-era Jedi. They scoff at mysticism and prophecy, viewing attempts to see the future as dangerously close to attempting to control the future (a dark side action). Without Foreseeing, Jedi might have ranks in Uncanny Reactions to bolster their (typically) high Willpower and Vigilance scores, but the set-up with the clones likely gives the Jedi Setback on their Initiative checks and/or grants Boost to the Clones (that probably tend towards average Presence and Cool scores). In fact, with Palpatine's whole scheme in place, it is quite possible that Jedi had their Difficulties on the Initiative rolls Upgraded, and Despairs on that roll could be quite nasty. In many cases, it seemed that the clones did best when the Jedi was currently engaged with CIS forces and seeing as the Clones all have at least one rank of Knowledge (Warfare) while Jedi don't seem to have it means the Jedi could be out maneuvered by their "grunts" in the field.

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2 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Adding in some in-game terms: According to Master and Apprentice, Foreseeing is a rare power among CW-era Jedi. They scoff at mysticism and prophecy, viewing attempts to see the future as dangerously close to attempting to control the future (a dark side action). Without Foreseeing, Jedi might have ranks in Uncanny Reactions to bolster their (typically) high Willpower and Vigilance scores, but the set-up with the clones likely gives the Jedi Setback on their Initiative checks and/or grants Boost to the Clones (that probably tend towards average Presence and Cool scores). In fact, with Palpatine's whole scheme in place, it is quite possible that Jedi had their Difficulties on the Initiative rolls Upgraded, and Despairs on that roll could be quite nasty. In many cases, it seemed that the clones did best when the Jedi was currently engaged with CIS forces and seeing as the Clones all have at least one rank of Knowledge (Warfare) while Jedi don't seem to have it means the Jedi could be out maneuvered by their "grunts" in the field.

Especially those in battle as Kyla noted. Where as if they were in a relatively calm place the Clones intent is more easily recognized and reacted too.

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22 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

That has always been there. Unless Palpatine was manipulatimg it?

Yes, it had always been there, and had been slowly seeping into every corner of the Temple, and insidiously weakening the Jedi’s connection to the Force little by little over the centuries. 

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35 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

What was causing the reduction in the Jedi’s ability to sense or foresee was a Dark Side Nexus beneath the Jedi Temple. 

That's so stupidly banal that I'm just ignoring it. No evidence of it in the movies or shows, anyway.

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32 minutes ago, Archlyte said:

So wait, the Jedi lost their power because they got involved in politics and tradition? WTF. Did that ever weaken them in any other era of the Lore when they were fighting the Sith Empire or any other foe? 

Politics leave everyone dirty. I doubt you need that explained to you.

Tradition is not bad in itself, but the Jedi had become hidebound, focused on their religious dogma to a degree that left them unable to deal with their own emotional needs as people and distanced them from the citizens of the galaxy.

Whether other eras conform to the movies and the shows (which often didn't even exist when those stories were being told) is irrelevant to what's on screen.

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13 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

That's so stupidly banal that I'm just ignoring it. No evidence of it in the movies or shows, anyway.

The Jedi Temple being built over an ancient Sith Shrine is in the lore, including the novel Tarkin, and was planned to be included in the Clone Wars before its cancellation. This fact was established by GL himself, along with Dave Filoni, while working on the series. As such, it’s also included in Nexus of Power.

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Posted (edited)
49 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Adding in some in-game terms: According to Master and Apprentice, Foreseeing is a rare power among CW-era Jedi. They scoff at mysticism and prophecy, viewing attempts to see the future as dangerously close to attempting to control the future (a dark side action). Without Foreseeing, Jedi might have ranks in Uncanny Reactions to bolster their (typically) high Willpower and Vigilance scores, but the set-up with the clones likely gives the Jedi Setback on their Initiative checks and/or grants Boost to the Clones (that probably tend towards average Presence and Cool scores). In fact, with Palpatine's whole scheme in place, it is quite possible that Jedi had their Difficulties on the Initiative rolls Upgraded, and Despairs on that roll could be quite nasty. In many cases, it seemed that the clones did best when the Jedi was currently engaged with CIS forces and seeing as the Clones all have at least one rank of Knowledge (Warfare) while Jedi don't seem to have it means the Jedi could be out maneuvered by their "grunts" in the field.

That all makes sense and is cool detail about how to make it work in game, which I think is helpful. I am questioning the screenplay decision to have the story shake out like this. The Jedi are an inconvenience to the plot at that point, they have been a part of the story, but they need to be eradicated. I think the misstep was trying to do it all at once, tied up in a neat bow.

I'm not really a giant fanboy of Jedi characters, and I don't like the idea of Jedi being invincible, but this just stank of having them be Lieutenant Worf'd. In peaceful moments they should have seen it coming, in action situations they were already reacting with preternatural ability. The things that die in great numbers second to the stupid battle droids are the clones, but in this situation they burn down the Jedi no prob. 

 

Edited by Archlyte

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23 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

Politics leave everyone dirty. I doubt you need that explained to you.

Tradition is not bad in itself, but the Jedi had become hidebound, focused on their religious dogma to a degree that left them unable to deal with their own emotional needs as people and distanced them from the citizens of the galaxy.

Whether other eras conform to the movies and the shows (which often didn't even exist when those stories were being told) is irrelevant to what's on screen.

What were the Jedi doing taking bribes? Were they lobbying for laws that benefitted them by getting senators women and drugs? Maybe they were fixing elections. Did I miss the deleted scenes where this was occurring? 

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2 minutes ago, Archlyte said:

What were the Jedi doing taking bribes? Were they lobbying for laws that benefitted them by getting senators women and drugs? Maybe they were fixing elections. Did I miss the deleted scenes where this was occurring? 

Yeah I never said anything about bribes or that other stuff. Look at the prequels. Look at Clone Wars. They're full of situations in which the Jedi compromised their morals or their ideals out of political or strategic expediency.

 

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16 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

The Jedi Temple being built over an ancient Sith Shrine is in the lore, including the novel Tarkin, and was planned to be included in the Clone Wars before its cancellation. This fact was established by GL himself, along with Dave Filoni, while working on the series. As such, it’s also included in Nexus of Power.

What do I care who came up with it. My objection is that it's bad and stupid, and also bad.

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3 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

What do I care who came up with it. My objection is that it's bad and stupid, and also bad.

How do you figure? The Jedi built their Temple over an ancient Sith shrine in an attempt to purify it as well as erase any trace of the Sith’s presence from Coruscant. However, instead of the Dark Side Nexus being purified, the Jedi Temple was slowly corrupted, and as such, the Jedi’s ability to sense the Force, and foresee the future was diminished. It makes perfect sense.

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1 minute ago, Tramp Graphics said:

How do you figure? The Jedi built their Temple over an ancient Sith shrine in an attempt to purify it as well as erase any trace of the Sith’s presence from Coruscant. However, instead of the Dark Side Nexus being purified, the Jedi Temple was slowly corrupted, and as such, the Jedi’s ability to sense the Force, and foresee the future was diminished. It makes perfect sense.

Putting the responsibility for the end of the order, even in part, on an evil influence rising up from the ground into their house like in some 80s horror movie completely destroys what little nuance their is in their story. It stops being about how their own actions allowed Palpatine to **** them over and becomes a freaking haunted house story, of all things.

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34 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

Putting the responsibility for the end of the order, even in part, on an evil influence rising up from the ground into their house like in some 80s horror movie completely destroys what little nuance their is in their story. It stops being about how their own actions allowed Palpatine to **** them over and becomes a freaking haunted house story, of all things.

I wouldn’t put it like that, but it’s certainly an interesting way to look at it. Regardless, it does fit with what we see in the films. The Dark Side (not the Sith) was veiling their ability to see through the Force. This is explicitly stated in the movies. As such, there has to be a cause for this, where is this Dark Side veil coming from. It wasn’t Palpatine. It wasn’t Plagueis, they just took advantage of it. Thus, there needed to be a logical source for it. Given what was established in ESB with the Dark Side cave on Dagobah, it makes perfect sense that the Jedi Temple would have been built over a Dark Side Nexus in a (failed) attempt to purify the site. It wouldn’t be the first time one religious order co-opted the site of another order for its own. It happened all the time in real life history as well.

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1 hour ago, Archlyte said:

What were the Jedi doing taking bribes? Were they lobbying for laws that benefitted them by getting senators women and drugs? Maybe they were fixing elections. Did I miss the deleted scenes where this was occurring? 

Well They were the Senates little enforcers who people know can do mind control of some sort. No one outside the jedi really understand it. Look at how Newt Gunray reacts at the beginning of the Phantom Menace. And for this service the Jedi get funded by the Senate. So what started as being outside arbitrators slowly over a thousand years morphs into a not so outside arbitrator who people know they cant refuse.  Now imagine you are having a trade dispute with the republic and the senate sends a jedi. Who you know can do mind control and can out fight all of your guards. Does this seem good to you? And the Jedi did it for the good of the republic. Never really considering how that looks.

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1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

Well They were the Senates little enforcers who people know can do mind control of some sort. No one outside the jedi really understand it. Look at how Newt Gunray reacts at the beginning of the Phantom Menace. And for this service the Jedi get funded by the Senate. So what started as being outside arbitrators slowly over a thousand years morphs into a not so outside arbitrator who people know they cant refuse.  Now imagine you are having a trade dispute with the republic and the senate sends a jedi. Who you know can do mind control and can out fight all of your guards. Does this seem good to you? And the Jedi did it for the good of the republic. Never really considering how that looks.

Doesn't seem like grounds for the Force cutting them off in a fatal manner. If anything it seems like minor drift. 

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4 minutes ago, Archlyte said:

Doesn't seem like grounds for the Force cutting them off in a fatal manner. If anything it seems like minor drift. 

If you think the difference between a guardian of the people and an enforcer of the state is minor, you need to become more politically aware.

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1 hour ago, Archlyte said:

Doesn't seem like grounds for the Force cutting them off in a fatal manner. If anything it seems like minor drift. 

Well that was done by a Sith so probably not what most of the people wanted. But then Ol' Palps turned on the propaganda engine telling everyone how the jedi disfigured him and were evil and... so on.

 

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4 minutes ago, Archlyte said:

But wait, are you saying that the Force ability of the Jedi was diminished because they started to have a low public image? 

No. 2 different problems. according to from What tramp says the mucking with the Jedi temple Nexus by palps did that.

But there is also their aversion to using Foresee.

but the manipulation of the Nexus could have a negative effect on how the jedi behave subtly such that they start being a little harsher in their arbitration. a little more rigid. a little more dogmatic. a .5 degree shift in path can be hundreds of miles off course after hundreds of  years. and those subtle influences can have students learning things slightly off and allowing further deviation. 

 

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1 hour ago, Archlyte said:

But wait, are you saying that the Force ability of the Jedi was diminished because they started to have a low public image? 

No. It was because they abandoned the mysticism of the Force and became a more secular organization. 

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