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Archlyte

Order Sixty-Six & Jedi slack response

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Something that has always bothered me is how the Order 66 scheme as depicted in the movie was effective in completely bushwhacking the Jedi. Except for Yoda, the Jedi were like Whaaat!? 

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So I know that they were used to the clones and didn't expect them to do that, but aren't they also like able to react to danger more quickly because of "Jedi reflexes" and what not? In in any other situation we would expect Jedi to have a lit light saber out in a blink of an eye. What's up with this?

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1 hour ago, Archlyte said:

Something that has always bothered me is how the Order 66 scheme as depicted in the movie was effective in completely bushwhacking the Jedi. Except for Yoda, the Jedi were like Whaaat!? 

See the source image
 
So I know that they were used to the clones and didn't expect them to do that, but aren't they also like able to react to danger more quickly because of "Jedi reflexes" and what not? In in any other situation we would expect Jedi to have a lit light saber out in a blink of an eye. What's up with this?

This is why i think more survived order66 than people think and more died being hunted down by vader

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4 hours ago, Archlyte said:

Something that has always bothered me is how the Order 66 scheme as depicted in the movie was effective in completely bushwhacking the Jedi. Except for Yoda, the Jedi were like Whaaat!? 

See the source image
 
So I know that they were used to the clones and didn't expect them to do that, but aren't they also like able to react to danger more quickly because of "Jedi reflexes" and what not? In in any other situation we would expect Jedi to have a lit light saber out in a blink of an eye. What's up with this?

So, there are two parts to answer this question:

First, we do actually see some Jedi react accordingly. Ki-Adi Mundi, for example. However, as one clone states during the Clone Wars, "If the Clones know how to do anything, it's how to kill a Jedi." The clones know exactly what it takes to bring the Jedi down. 

Second, a key part of Order 66 is actually the mental state of the clones. Part of a Jedi's "danger sense" is the ability to sense the intent of those around them. For example, of you suddenly sense murderous intent right behind you, you know someone snuck up on you and is trying to kill you. But the clones' intent didn't really change when Order 66 went through. Their intent was always to violently defend the Republic. The only thing that changed was the target. Not every Jedi would be able to sense such a subtle change, especially not when they're fighting on the front line of a battle.

That's just what I've been able to gleam from various sources, but it does go a long way to explain why Order 66 was so effective. That said, in  Legends and Canon, there does appear to be a  pretty extensive list of survivors. Hence, the Inquisitorious. Between Vader actively hunting the Jedi, and the Inquisitors constantly searching for any signs of a Force sensitive, Jedi or not, it didn't take long for most of those survivors to be tracked down. It also doesn't help that the Empire had an exhaustive list of every Jedi survivor of Order 66, with the full history of each Jedi as well (thanks to having complete, unrestricted access to the Jedi archives).

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I guess my answer would be multiple-fold.

First of all, the Jedi Council was pondering on informing the Senate about telling their ability to use the Force was diminished. There is a literal line about this in the prequels. To me, that says as much as only the strongest of Jedi would still be able to pierce that 'cloud' or 'haze' and respond with their Jedi Reflexes or something. Thus, Yoda could foresee this happening as and when Order 66 was issued, and general Padawan number 66 couldn't, nor could Generic Jedi Knight number 66.

Next, not all, but most of the scenes we get to see are combat situations or patrols with weapons drawn and clone fireteams, speeder bikers, and pilots combat ready. Most Jedi, especially with diminished powers (however that works or turned out to be) would not get that split-second between leading a clone squad from the front to being the leading target in front of a clone squad.

Like @Daeglan indicated, there could have been many survivors following that first wave of extermination. Were all the (Fully trained and combat capable) Jedi leading combat squads from the front lines? Were they all in or near military units? (Barring Jedi Temple teachers, librarians, support staff, etc.). Couldn't there have been a Jedi in some backwater hospital with a broken leg or something? Far from clones? Seeing the Galactic CNN-like broadcast and skedaddling away quiet like? Exploring Jedi in the Outer Rim might have dodged the bullet as well. Being all alone between millions of stars instead of clones. I see many options for Jedi to have not been a victim of Order 66 directly.

The source image... I guess that doesn't say "Whaaat!?" more than it would indicate "Look at the size of that thing!" But that is personal interpretation.

And then Darth Vader has some odd fifteen to twenty years to hunt down survivors. Him being supported by Hands of the Emperor, an Inquisitorius, an extensive intelligence network, and what not. The initial bushwacking from Order 66 might as well have gutted the Jedi Order completely under such circumstances. With few scraps left.

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5 hours ago, Archlyte said:

but aren't they also like able to react to danger more quickly because of "Jedi reflexes" and what not?

That's fan & EU power creep, not something supported by the movies or the shows.

Time and again we see Jedi caught off-guard or unaware of developments.

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5 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

That's fan & EU power creep, not something supported by the movies or the shows.

Time and again we see Jedi caught off-guard or unaware of developments.

Not really. Qui gon discusses it regarding Anakin an pod racing.

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7 hours ago, Underachiever599 said:

So, there are two parts to answer this question:

First, we do actually see some Jedi react accordingly. Ki-Adi Mundi, for example. However, as one clone states during the Clone Wars, "If the Clones know how to do anything, it's how to kill a Jedi." The clones know exactly what it takes to bring the Jedi down. 

Second, a key part of Order 66 is actually the mental state of the clones. Part of a Jedi's "danger sense" is the ability to sense the intent of those around them. For example, of you suddenly sense murderous intent right behind you, you know someone snuck up on you and is trying to kill you. But the clones' intent didn't really change when Order 66 went through. Their intent was always to violently defend the Republic. The only thing that changed was the target. Not every Jedi would be able to sense such a subtle change, especially not when they're fighting on the front line of a battle.

That's just what I've been able to gleam from various sources, but it does go a long way to explain why Order 66 was so effective. That said, in  Legends and Canon, there does appear to be a  pretty extensive list of survivors. Hence, the Inquisitorious. Between Vader actively hunting the Jedi, and the Inquisitors constantly searching for any signs of a Force sensitive, Jedi or not, it didn't take long for most of those survivors to be tracked down. It also doesn't help that the Empire had an exhaustive list of every Jedi survivor of Order 66, with the full history of each Jedi as well (thanks to having complete, unrestricted access to the Jedi archives).

I did forget that they are Jango clones but apparently their training must have included his Jedi hatred or something.

As for their danger sense it would seem to me that if it is just sensing intent then random things falling on them or unexpected turns in a speeder chase would kill them like anyone else. If we want to tie it to individual beings Chirrut Imwe reveals that the Force moves darkly about a being that is about to kill. Chirrut is merely Force Sensitive and the Jedi were operating in the field in a war so many of them would be knights I would assume. Now this wouldn't be easy I guess in the situations where the Clones are firing at stuff already, but in some of those situations the clones are jus chillin when the switch gets flipped. 

Thanks for researching it a bit I do appreciate that. I agree with you that there would be an extensive list of survivors. 

To me there is no way the Clone Wars ends that day. The droids may have shut down but hostility has momentum and going from total war to total peace in a few hours seems ridiculous to me, and an artifice of the constraints of movie run time. Also I prefer to think of the Clones and the Droid army as being only a fraction of the total forces committed in a war that spanned so many solar systems. A clone factory on one planet seems puny and those droids were so stupid an ineffective that real troops would have had to have carried the bulk of the war effort imo. 

 

 

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8 hours ago, Xcapobl said:

I guess my answer would be multiple-fold.

First of all, the Jedi Council was pondering on informing the Senate about telling their ability to use the Force was diminished. There is a literal line about this in the prequels. To me, that says as much as only the strongest of Jedi would still be able to pierce that 'cloud' or 'haze' and respond with their Jedi Reflexes or something. Thus, Yoda could foresee this happening as and when Order 66 was issued, and general Padawan number 66 couldn't, nor could Generic Jedi Knight number 66.

Next, not all, but most of the scenes we get to see are combat situations or patrols with weapons drawn and clone fireteams, speeder bikers, and pilots combat ready. Most Jedi, especially with diminished powers (however that works or turned out to be) would not get that split-second between leading a clone squad from the front to being the leading target in front of a clone squad.

Like @Daeglan indicated, there could have been many survivors following that first wave of extermination. Were all the (Fully trained and combat capable) Jedi leading combat squads from the front lines? Were they all in or near military units? (Barring Jedi Temple teachers, librarians, support staff, etc.). Couldn't there have been a Jedi in some backwater hospital with a broken leg or something? Far from clones? Seeing the Galactic CNN-like broadcast and skedaddling away quiet like? Exploring Jedi in the Outer Rim might have dodged the bullet as well. Being all alone between millions of stars instead of clones. I see many options for Jedi to have not been a victim of Order 66 directly.

The source image... I guess that doesn't say "Whaaat!?" more than it would indicate "Look at the size of that thing!" But that is personal interpretation.

And then Darth Vader has some odd fifteen to twenty years to hunt down survivors. Him being supported by Hands of the Emperor, an Inquisitorius, an extensive intelligence network, and what not. The initial bushwacking from Order 66 might as well have gutted the Jedi Order completely under such circumstances. With few scraps left.

Lol really? You are gonna argue with a picture I put in for fun? Yeah that whole haze of the dark side thing implies that the Sith should never have lost any conflict against the Jedi because it completely blinds them. This was simply an unfortunate plot device that was used by George because he never gives a **** beyond the needs of the movie. It was a huge world building cock-up. 

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There are three of key points in this as I see it. 

The first is the misunderstanding that Yoda detected the Clones were turning on him. The source material identifies that when he grips his chest he is feeling the loss of of the other Jedi throughout the galaxy, hundreds of Jedi dead nearly simultaneously. Additionally, Commander Gree, in charge of Yoda's clones, actually waited on carryout the order, first to calm his troops (who were understandably intimidated by the Jedi Master) and second to plan the assault on the Jedi Master. This gave Yoda time to figure out what was going on, so he didn't truly rely on Jedi prescience to identify the danger, but instead a good dose of calculated logic and Jedi instincts. The Jedi instincts part comes to the second key point.

In Attack of the Clones, Anakin and Obi-Wan notice the threat of the kouhun before it strikes. In this instance, the two Jedi are "on watch," alert for threats but in a place of relative peace and calm. When the murderous intent of the kouhun enters this place of tranquility, it's very noticeable, the darkness of its murderous intent a stain on the Force of the area. This allows the Jedi sense the kouhun and react quickly. In the case of Yoda, we also see him observing the battle from the command station above the battlefield. This meant the area itself, while on edge, was also relatively calm. When Commander Gree then made a move, there was a distinct darkness that descended, which was out of place with the area, giving Yoda advance warning in addition to the feelings of loss from the many Jedi. If we use this as a baseline then to look at the other scenes of battle, we see that most of the Jedi were in midst of combat - the darkness of murderous intent heavy and thick in the air. This meant that the clones change of target for this intent would, as Underachiever above pointed out, be too subtle to give any significant warning. Despite this, many Jedi, such as Aayla Secura and Ki Adi Mundi, do turn and confront their clones, gaining understanding of the situation prior to actually being attacked, but this really only made it worse, which brings us to the third key point.

The Jedi, throughout the Clones Wars, had come to rely and trust their clones. The look of confusion and horror on Ki Adi Mundi and Aayla Secura's faces were borne from the betrayal of that trust. The names given to the clones by these Jedi were echoing through their thoughts as they attempted to understand why their clones (in some cases dear friends) were turning on them. The attachment that the Jedi had developed for the clones (despite the warnings against developing attachment the Jedi Code issues) through the many campaigns and battles of the Clone Wars weighed down the Jedi's reactions in a bog of regret and confusion. Their final moments were agony.

Most of the instances of Jedi surviving come from those Jedi who heeded the warnings and never saw their clones as more than weapons of war, or those, like Depa Billaba and Caleb Dume, who were not immediately in combat at the time. Even in these later instances, the Jedi typically were struck down, though it took longer (as mentioned previously, the clones knew how to fight Jedi) and usually resulted in the Jedi sacrificing themselves for the Padawan. This also worked into the plans of Order 66, because the very Jedi that were so callous as to distrust and suspect the clones were also those Jedi who were closest to the Dark Side, and so made for ripe harvesting within the Inquisitorious. The other Jedi, those lucky enough to not be in combat, or escape via providence, then became the main targets of Vader's Purge, and canonically, we know of 15 Jedi who survived. From the movies, Yoda and Obi-wan Kenobi, Caleb Dume who took the name Kanan Jarrus in Rebels, Luminara Unduli who died in captivity, Jocasta Nu, Kirak Infil’a, and Ferren Barr from the new Marvel comics, Prosset Dibbs, Bil Valen, and Masana Tide who became Inquisitors, and Zubain Anokonori, Nuhj, Mususiel, and Khandra who fled to Anoat in the mobile game, along with Uvell from the tie-in stories in Star Wars Insider. When we think about the fact that the Jedi numbered in the hundreds at the end of the Clone Wars, 15 canonical survivors is a decent amount, and implies more are likely.

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1 hour ago, Stan Fresh said:

The same movie in which Qui-Gon corrects Anakin's preconception that Jedi aren't invincible?

Yeah I'm just saying I didn't get it from the EU, but you are correct there are plenty of contradictions. 

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36 minutes ago, Kyla said:

There are three of key points in this as I see it. 

The first is the misunderstanding that Yoda detected the Clones were turning on him. The source material identifies that when he grips his chest he is feeling the loss of of the other Jedi throughout the galaxy, hundreds of Jedi dead nearly simultaneously. Additionally, Commander Gree, in charge of Yoda's clones, actually waited on carryout the order, first to calm his troops (who were understandably intimidated by the Jedi Master) and second to plan the assault on the Jedi Master. This gave Yoda time to figure out what was going on, so he didn't truly rely on Jedi prescience to identify the danger, but instead a good dose of calculated logic and Jedi instincts. The Jedi instincts part comes to the second key point.

In Attack of the Clones, Anakin and Obi-Wan notice the threat of the kouhun before it strikes. In this instance, the two Jedi are "on watch," alert for threats but in a place of relative peace and calm. When the murderous intent of the kouhun enters this place of tranquility, it's very noticeable, the darkness of its murderous intent a stain on the Force of the area. This allows the Jedi sense the kouhun and react quickly. In the case of Yoda, we also see him observing the battle from the command station above the battlefield. This meant the area itself, while on edge, was also relatively calm. When Commander Gree then made a move, there was a distinct darkness that descended, which was out of place with the area, giving Yoda advance warning in addition to the feelings of loss from the many Jedi. If we use this as a baseline then to look at the other scenes of battle, we see that most of the Jedi were in midst of combat - the darkness of murderous intent heavy and thick in the air. This meant that the clones change of target for this intent would, as Underachiever above pointed out, be too subtle to give any significant warning. Despite this, many Jedi, such as Aayla Secura and Ki Adi Mundi, do turn and confront their clones, gaining understanding of the situation prior to actually being attacked, but this really only made it worse, which brings us to the third key point.

The Jedi, throughout the Clones Wars, had come to rely and trust their clones. The look of confusion and horror on Ki Adi Mundi and Aayla Secura's faces were borne from the betrayal of that trust. The names given to the clones by these Jedi were echoing through their thoughts as they attempted to understand why their clones (in some cases dear friends) were turning on them. The attachment that the Jedi had developed for the clones (despite the warnings against developing attachment the Jedi Code issues) through the many campaigns and battles of the Clone Wars weighed down the Jedi's reactions in a bog of regret and confusion. Their final moments were agony.

Most of the instances of Jedi surviving come from those Jedi who heeded the warnings and never saw their clones as more than weapons of war, or those, like Depa Billaba and Caleb Dume, who were not immediately in combat at the time. Even in these later instances, the Jedi typically were struck down, though it took longer (as mentioned previously, the clones knew how to fight Jedi) and usually resulted in the Jedi sacrificing themselves for the Padawan. This also worked into the plans of Order 66, because the very Jedi that were so callous as to distrust and suspect the clones were also those Jedi who were closest to the Dark Side, and so made for ripe harvesting within the Inquisitorious. The other Jedi, those lucky enough to not be in combat, or escape via providence, then became the main targets of Vader's Purge, and canonically, we know of 15 Jedi who survived. From the movies, Yoda and Obi-wan Kenobi, Caleb Dume who took the name Kanan Jarrus in Rebels, Luminara Unduli who died in captivity, Jocasta Nu, Kirak Infil’a, and Ferren Barr from the new Marvel comics, Prosset Dibbs, Bil Valen, and Masana Tide who became Inquisitors, and Zubain Anokonori, Nuhj, Mususiel, and Khandra who fled to Anoat in the mobile game, along with Uvell from the tie-in stories in Star Wars Insider. When we think about the fact that the Jedi numbered in the hundreds at the end of the Clone Wars, 15 canonical survivors is a decent amount, and implies more are likely.

I don't know what the source material is but the thing about Jedi is that they don't have normal reactions to danger and threat. Yes they are not perfect but the idea that they survived battles with tons of stuff shooting at them and ambushing them but really just went down like sacks when clones did the same thing isn't something that makes sense to me. It's very convenient for the story of course, but it makes the Jedi into normal folks with lightsabers. 

If they experienced agony then I guess they really failed in their training. That monk who self-immolated in Viet Nam was an example of the kind of control Jedi should have, even at the drop of a hat and especially if you have a way of sensing stuff that is about to happen. 

On survivors: The sheer size of the galaxy is an issue. So many worlds with myriad moons and stations and cities. The clones are pumped out from a few facilities on one planet in the entire galaxy according to the movie. Would be like the Earth being conquered by the chess club from a High School. Given the size of their task as a whole the idea that they could remain close to all Jedi just doesn't wash. 

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3 minutes ago, Archlyte said:

I don't know what the source material is but the thing about Jedi is that they don't have normal reactions to danger and threat. Yes they are not perfect but the idea that they survived battles with tons of stuff shooting at them and ambushing them but really just went down like sacks when clones did the same thing isn't something that makes sense to me. It's very convenient for the story of course, but it makes the Jedi into normal folks with lightsabers. 

If they experienced agony then I guess they really failed in their training. That monk who self-immolated in Viet Nam was an example of the kind of control Jedi should have, even at the drop of a hat and especially if you have a way of sensing stuff that is about to happen. 

On survivors: The sheer size of the galaxy is an issue. So many worlds with myriad moons and stations and cities. The clones are pumped out from a few facilities on one planet in the entire galaxy according to the movie. Would be like the Earth being conquered by the chess club from a High School. Given the size of their task as a whole the idea that they could remain close to all Jedi just doesn't wash. 

Considering how few Jedi there actually were to begin with, it’s not that hard to imangine. Even at their peak, the Jedi only numbered around 10,000 individual Jedi.

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2 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Considering how few Jedi there actually were to begin with, it’s not that hard to imangine. Even at their peak, the Jedi only numbered around 10,000 individual Jedi.

There are too many of them for my taste as suggested by EU sources, but the size of that temple to me suggests a lot of Jedi, even with a ton of wasted space. I like the idea of there being very few Jedi at that time but the amount that existed is nebulous. 

So let's say there is a small number of Jedi, and they are all dispatched to hang out with the clones. Then maybe you have the situation where they can be neatly exterminated by the clones, but I don't think all of the Jedi would be with the clones given the way there are all these Jedi "types" who aren't all martial. 

It's a convenient plot device that George came up with because he had to get it all wrapped up in 140 minutes and make it match the condition of the Jedi having been extinguished. A campaign of hunting down the Jedi and other dissidents would have probably lasted for years. I don't imagine the galaxy would have politically turned on a dime. 

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1 minute ago, Archlyte said:

There are too many of them for my taste as suggested by EU sources, but the size of that temple to me suggests a lot of Jedi, even with a ton of wasted space. I like the idea of there being very few Jedi at that time but the amount that existed is nebulous. 

So let's say there is a small number of Jedi, and they are all dispatched to hang out with the clones. Then maybe you have the situation where they can be neatly exterminated by the clones, but I don't think all of the Jedi would be with the clones given the way there are all these Jedi "types" who aren't all martial. 

It's a convenient plot device that George came up with because he had to get it all wrapped up in 140 minutes and make it match the condition of the Jedi having been extinguished. A campaign of hunting down the Jedi and other dissidents would have probably lasted for years. I don't imagine the galaxy would have politically turned on a dime. 

The total number of potential Jedi who survived Order 66 has been estimated to be around maybe 100-200 or so individuals out of an order that had a total of 10,000 fully trained Jedi throughout the galaxy. 

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3 hours ago, Archlyte said:

Lol really? You are gonna argue with a picture I put in for fun? Yeah that whole haze of the dark side thing implies that the Sith should never have lost any conflict against the Jedi because it completely blinds them. This was simply an unfortunate plot device that was used by George because he never gives a **** beyond the needs of the movie. It was a huge world building cock-up. 

Argueing the picture was a joke. Sorry if you didn't get that. I actually loved the image, and just another Star Wars quote crashed into my head there. My mind sometimes works in mysterious ways. 😉

And I wholeheartedly agree with the rest of your post. I don't think any one ever came up with a good reason why the Jedi would become blindsided then and there. It is implied there were always two Sith (from the moment the Rule of Two was installed). So it wasn't like the Jedi became power-diminished because of a sudden Sith presence. Nor by their numbers.

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3 minutes ago, Xcapobl said:

Argueing the picture was a joke. Sorry if you didn't get that. I actually loved the image, and just another Star Wars quote crashed into my head there. My mind sometimes works in mysterious ways. 😉

And I wholeheartedly agree with the rest of your post. I don't think any one ever came up with a good reason why the Jedi would become blindsided then and there. It is implied there were always two Sith (from the moment the Rule of Two was installed). So it wasn't like the Jedi became power-diminished because of a sudden Sith presence. Nor by their numbers.

Yeah I'm dense sometimes. Feel like a jerk now. 

And totally agree about the whole Jedi power outage crap. If they sensed they were that freakin weak I think they would have been acting a bit different. Like they would have considerable numbers investigating what was up with the Force for one thing. 

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3 hours ago, Archlyte said:

To me there is no way the Clone Wars ends that day. The droids may have shut down but hostility has momentum and going from total war to total peace in a few hours seems ridiculous to me, and an artifice of the constraints of movie run time. Also I prefer to think of the Clones and the Droid army as being only a fraction of the total forces committed in a war that spanned so many solar systems. A clone factory on one planet seems puny and those droids were so stupid an ineffective that real troops would have had to have carried the bulk of the war effort imo. 

 

 

You seem to forget that the droids armies weren't the only thing stamped out at the end of RotS. The entire Separatist Council, every single key figure in charge of the Separatist movement, was in Mustafar when Anakin arrived and slaughtered them. With no more leadership, no army, and every planet they had overtaken now free to fight back unopposed, the Separatist Alliance as a whole would have almost immediately crumbled.

That said, there were still small pockets of Separatist resistance, mainly through the Outer Rim, that continued fighting back against the Empire. They were the excuse the Emperor needed to upscale the Empire's military, rather than cutting back. So while the overall Separatist movement ended at the end of RotS, some fighting did continue after the war itself came to an end. This actually mirrors real life, as nearly every major war has had small battles fought after the war officially ended.

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1 minute ago, Underachiever599 said:

You seem to forget that the droids armies weren't the only thing stamped out at the end of RotS. The entire Separatist Council, every single key figure in charge of the Separatist movement, was in Mustafar when Anakin arrived and slaughtered them. With no more leadership, no army, and every planet they had overtaken now free to fight back unopposed, the Separatist Alliance as a whole would have almost immediately crumbled.

That said, there were still small pockets of Separatist resistance, mainly through the Outer Rim, that continued fighting back against the Empire. They were the excuse the Emperor needed to upscale the Empire's military, rather than cutting back. So while the overall Separatist movement ended at the end of RotS, some fighting did continue after the war itself came to an end. This actually mirrors real life, as nearly every major war has had small battles fought after the war officially ended.

Also nobody saw this cause as actually dear to them apart from the puppet leader who led them into it? No one else was invested in the conflict they just did it cause Nute Gunray and Butstab Nilwat said to? 

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30 minutes ago, Xcapobl said:

So it wasn't like the Jedi became power-diminished because of a sudden Sith presence. Nor by their numbers.

It's specifically the dark side that is clouding their vision, not the Sith. There's a difference.

Both Yoda and Dooku state that the dark side clouds Jedi awareness/foresight. That doesn't mean it's an external influence on the Jedi; it could be that the Jedi's ongoing fall from grace is the cause of their inability to clearly see the future (or even the present!). The dark side is inside them. The prequels are in large parts about the Jedi failing hard at their duties because they allow themselves to be morally compromised by politics, bureaucracy, war, and tradition.

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49 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

The total number of potential Jedi who survived Order 66 has been estimated to be around maybe 100-200 or so individuals out of an order that had a total of 10,000 fully trained Jedi throughout the galaxy. 

I think it is a matter of scale. In a galaxy of hundreds of billions of beings there are 10000 of those a couple hundred survive. But they have no resources arent organized. Have no real way to organize. Most of them are partially trained padawans. Seems reasonable to me. Also keep in mind hyperboly can be involved in so.e statements.

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4 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

It's specifically the dark side that is clouding their vision, not the Sith. There's a difference.

Both Yoda and Dooku state that the dark side clouds Jedi awareness/foresight. That doesn't mean it's an external influence on the Jedi; it could be that the Jedi's ongoing fall from grace is the cause of their inability to clearly see the future (or even the present!). The dark side is inside them. The prequels are in large parts about the Jedi failing hard at their duties because they allow themselves to be morally compromised by politics, bureaucracy, war, and tradition.

What was causing the reduction in the Jedi’s ability to sense or foresee was a Dark Side Nexus beneath the Jedi Temple. 

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