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azeronbloodmoone

interesting proposal about sniper spam

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so i've seen alot of talk about snipers and them being over used for competitive use as they are heavily used in most list with 2 or 3 on the list (especially rebels).
besides heavy terrain to hide your troops behind and leia and veers orbital bombardment, How does most people deal with this issue and also how would you recommend to fix the sniper spam that seems to be out there?
i would say that a errata to make there weapon only range 1-4  to try to bring them down from cross field shooting.  also the counter to sniper spam is fast moving units like speeders or counter sniper.

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Easy, what you do is snipe their snipers before they can shoot with your snipers.

You have to go after them turn run with long range units of your own turn one or just accept the plinking they are going to give you. They are good, but they don't wipe out a full squad all at once. They are a slow burn. One of the reasons people take them is they are a cheap activation. Having a pass mechanism in game like Imperial Assault will take away a lot of their appeal.

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46 minutes ago, azeronbloodmoone said:

How does most people deal with this issue and also how would you recommend to fix the sniper spam that seems to be out there?

Put multiple LOS blocking items near the center of the board. Put lots of items for cover everywhere else.

Stride fearlessly up to them with a big vehicle and kill them in one shot.

 

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I don’t really see snipers as a big problem. Terrain puts a stop to them.

Veers and Leia both have good tools for whacking them.

Boba has to close the gap but moves fast and can dispatch them in a hurry. Go ahead and low profile with sharpshooter on the field.

They are a decent tool as they are now. There are tools for handling them.

Of any balance or spam issue, this is one I’m not worried about unless folks are building minimal terrain boards

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1 hour ago, azeronbloodmoone said:

so i've seen alot of talk about snipers and them being over used for competitive use as they are heavily used in most list with 2 or 3 on the list (especially rebels).
besides heavy terrain to hide your troops behind and leia and veers orbital bombardment, How does most people deal with this issue and also how would you recommend to fix the sniper spam that seems to be out there?
i would say that a errata to make there weapon only range 1-4  to try to bring them down from cross field shooting.  also the counter to sniper spam is fast moving units like speeders or counter sniper.

Snipers do virtually no damage output at all for their points, and they are vulnerable (as you mentioned) to vehicles and the like.

 

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2 hours ago, Derrault said:

Snipers do virtually no damage output at all for their points, and they are vulnerable (as you mentioned) to vehicles and the like.

 

they can do alot of damage almost guarantee 1 point of damage per sniper per round, which can easily take out a commander or operative by round 2. also this is before they even get in close to be effective. the point value for both commando strike teams make them well worth it. also dodges can't be used against their shot so nimble doesn't come into play either or defelect.

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1 hour ago, buckero0 said:

Mine average almost 1 damage every time they shoot no matter what the target is.

Well, no, not armor, they average .25 against anything like that.

1 hour ago, azeronbloodmoone said:

they can do alot of damage almost guarantee 1 point of damage per sniper per round, which can easily take out a commander or operative by round 2. also this is before they even get in close to be effective. the point value for both commando strike teams make them well worth it. also dodges can't be used against their shot so nimble doesn't come into play either or defelect.

Assuming a clear lines of sight and lack of pierce immunity (Luke, Vader, Palpatine), and no access to Guardian (ie Chewie, IRG, esteemed leader), sure.

By way of comparison, a basic Rebel trooper squad is 4 points cheaper (even before you account for the need to take duck and cover on the snipers), and deals the same average wounds. (Fleet troopers deal more, albeit at slightly shorter range), is upgradable to be even better, and it doesn’t burn up your SF slots.

Incidentally, for 72 points, the Rebel troopers deal the same average as two sniper strike teams, with the added benefit of only requiring one activation to get the same average wounds in.

 

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2 hours ago, Derrault said:

Well, no, not armor, they average .25 against anything like that.

Assuming a clear lines of sight and lack of pierce immunity (Luke, Vader, Palpatine), and no access to Guardian (ie Chewie, IRG, esteemed leader), sure.

By way of comparison, a basic Rebel trooper squad is 4 points cheaper (even before you account for the need to take duck and cover on the snipers), and deals the same average wounds. (Fleet troopers deal more, albeit at slightly shorter range), is upgradable to be even better, and it doesn’t burn up your SF slots.

Incidentally, for 72 points, the Rebel troopers deal the same average as two sniper strike teams, with the added benefit of only requiring one activation to get the same average wounds in.

 

so with armor pierce still goes though and with transports that is a guarentee damage to the rider then, with the immune to pierce okay yeah not guarentee but they can't spend dodges on those guys either. as for guardian well pierce can effect those units no problem which is still damage being dealt out to units that would need to be taken out.
while yes rebel trooper squad is cheaper they require to get closer, and fleet troopers have the same range as the sniper basic weapons but when you put snipers at back of the field they can still hit you on the other side with only light cover at max to any unit.

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Snipers don't worry me all that much.  Like others have said there are ways to deal with them.  Pathfinders are another option, they have a good range 4 attack.  As long as I can get them in possition without being a target for too much enemy firepower they can easily wipe out a sniper squad before they activate.  

Also when attacking Imperial snipers they are one of the few white defense die Imperial units so that is another reason to focus them down early and reduce your opponents activations early.  Activation advantage is one of the most powerful things in game.

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Posted (edited)

For "how to fix" snipers, I have no idea.

For how to deal with them, I've found a few options.  Most of these are Imperial, as that's what I play, but a few are Rebel.  

The easiest option is counter sniper.  Wait til their snipers are deployed, and then deploy your snipers specifically to take them out.  Play one pip cards that let you hit them first.  Leia and Veers also fall into this, as their one pip cards allow for sniper deletion pretty easily.  Veers is more reliable at making the kill, but he's kinda overkill for a single team, while Leia is the best at this because she can hit multiple teams at once.

The second option is the vehicles.  Shoving an Occupier or AT-ST right up a sniper's ghillie suited butt hurts them, bad.  Range four attacks (AT-ST, Occupier, or Laser Cannon AT-RT) help with this, but it's not always the best option because of deployment and terrain.  (and other vehicle problems)  Alternatively, hitting a sniper at range 4 with the AT-ST's mortar can be effective.  You really need the crits to do anything (assuming they're in cover) but I've taken out a few sniper teams that way.  Even slapping them with suppression can hurt because it's limiting their actions.  

The last major option at the moment is a sniper killer team, built around either Boba (he's the best at this) or someone like Luke.  This is difficult for Luke, because everyone tends to focus on him, and he needs to be off doing commander things, but he can still hop around terrain and get to Snipers a lot easier than some units.  His blaster comes in handy for this as you can get high enough they won't have cover and then murder them without trying to get into melee range.  Boba is the best for his mobility and sharpshooter ability to negate any cover the snipers have.   Impervious also helps him because he can (sometimes) ignore sniper hits like a champ, and thus negate the sniper's primary means of defense.  Rounding out HK  teams is Deathtroopers and pathfinders.  Both have moderately effective range four weapons (more so the Deathtroopers), while the pathfinders have the option of practically climbing into the sniper hide to say hello to Chris Kyle's auerbesh writing cousin.  It's an expensive use for these units to focus on snipers, but they frequently remove them from the battle in one shot, so it's not a terrible idea, especially if your HK teams can kill several units before they go down. 

We'll have to see how certain units like mortars or tauntauns change the sniper-hunting game.  They could be handy, or they could be garbage.  E-Webs and speeder bikes should be good at this role but sadly are not.  E-Webs lack the range necessary (and that they honestly should have), while bikes often seem too fragile.

Edited by Alpha17

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1 hour ago, Alpha17 said:

We'll have to see how certain units like mortars or tauntauns change the sniper-hunting game.  They could be handy, or they could be garbage.  E-Webs and speeder bikes should be good at this role but sadly are not.  E-Webs lack the range necessary (and that they honestly should have), while bikes often seem too fragile.

I dont think tauntauns will be that good vs. Snipers. Their dodge tokens are meaningless vs. High velocity and they can be suppressed to boot.

Mortars will be a game changer because they are another unlimited range 'strike team' style option.

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I think they will be toned down after people start using more los blocking terrain, vehicles and such.

Sure they will always be an effective unit for the low price, I think that maybe from start snipers should have been range 5 maybe instead of entire map.

 

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3 hours ago, KommanderKeldoth said:

I dont think tauntauns will be that good vs. Snipers. Their dodge tokens are meaningless vs. High velocity and they can be suppressed to boot.

Mortars will be a game changer because they are another unlimited range 'strike team' style option.

The problem with mortar teams will be their damage output at those long ranges.  Three white die isn't great, especially if the mortar doesn't have surge to hit/crit, and they won't be able to add their attack pool to a corps unit if that unit is out of range.  That's one reason why I'm actually really disappointed in the mortars they designed, as they really are pretty terrible for the role of indirect fire.  Granted, most of this is speculation, and could easily be wrong, but I'm still not convinced. 

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14 hours ago, azeronbloodmoone said:

so with armor pierce still goes though and with transports that is a guarentee damage to the rider then, with the immune to pierce okay yeah not guarentee but they can't spend dodges on those guys either. as for guardian well pierce can effect those units no problem which is still damage being dealt out to units that would need to be taken out.
while yes rebel trooper squad is cheaper they require to get closer, and fleet troopers have the same range as the sniper basic weapons but when you put snipers at back of the field they can still hit you on the other side with only light cover at max to any unit.

Pierce just removes blocks. If they don't roll crits, and there's no impact, and don't surge to crit, and only have 2 dice, that means there's a 1/8 chance per die of getting a critical hit and having pierce make any difference at all.

And even then, the value of pierce is basically removing the .5 or .333 chance they'd roll a block naturally.

So, no, it's not automatic, it's -> 0.25 wounds.

Yes, I agree the sniper is good at removing 0-2 miniatures per round, usually just 1.
On average that's a single enemy unit, after all 6 rounds, assuming it has a shot every single round and the enemy don't simply interpose terrain to render it useless, or it isn't dropped by a hunter-killer unit.

That's a terrible ROI.

Remember, it's not just the average damage a unit can output, it's the maximum that's important too, because you're never going to deal more than 2 damage activating a sniper, but activating a corps can realize damage up to 11 or 12, and that more than makes up for having a lower range.

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On 5/16/2019 at 8:05 PM, Derrault said:

Snipers do virtually no damage output at all for their points, and they are vulnerable (as you mentioned) to vehicles and the like.

 

I don't use them for direct damage but suppression and panic the damage is just a bonus.  Had one game half my unit kills were panic off the board

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3 hours ago, chr335 said:

I don't use them for direct damage but suppression and panic the damage is just a bonus.  Had one game half my unit kills were panic off the board

I guess, but it’s not like they’re split firing most of the time, nor suppressive or anything like that. 

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11 hours ago, Alpha17 said:

The problem with mortar teams will be their damage output at those long ranges.  Three white die isn't great, especially if the mortar doesn't have surge to hit/crit, and they won't be able to add their attack pool to a corps unit if that unit is out of range.  That's one reason why I'm actually really disappointed in the mortars they designed, as they really are pretty terrible for the role of indirect fire.  Granted, most of this is speculation, and could easily be wrong, but I'm still not convinced. 

They have the critical keyword, so they will convert at least 1 surge (which is all you'll get from 3 dice usually). I could see them being potent doing fire support for other infinite range weapons like snipers and other mortars. Basically it adds another infinite range cheap activation to fight the sniper war.

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15 hours ago, KommanderKeldoth said:

They have the critical keyword, so they will convert at least 1 surge (which is all you'll get from 3 dice usually). I could see them being potent doing fire support for other infinite range weapons like snipers and other mortars. Basically it adds another infinite range cheap activation to fight the sniper war.

cool thing about mortars is they also have suppressive keyword so even with 1 hit your dealing 2 suppression a round to a unit.

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On 5/18/2019 at 12:37 AM, KommanderKeldoth said:

They have the critical keyword, so they will convert at least 1 surge (which is all you'll get from 3 dice usually). I could see them being potent doing fire support for other infinite range weapons like snipers and other mortars. Basically it adds another infinite range cheap activation to fight the sniper war.

Where's that stated?  The article doesn't show their card or mention the Critical keyword.  Another factoid from a podcast I missed?

And the problem I see with adding fire to other mortars and snipers is two-fold.  Can you actually do that, or will adding their fire only work for Shoretroopers?  The other issue is if you have to have line of sight, it becomes a race between the sniper and mortar to see who can get the kill first.  At best, the mortar will likely have 2 HP, and a sniper with pierce will almost certainly win that race.

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1 hour ago, Alpha17 said:

Where's that stated?  The article doesn't show their card or mention the Critical keyword.  Another factoid from a podcast I missed?

And the problem I see with adding fire to other mortars and snipers is two-fold.  Can you actually do that, or will adding their fire only work for Shoretroopers?  The other issue is if you have to have line of sight, it becomes a race between the sniper and mortar to see who can get the kill first.  At best, the mortar will likely have 2 HP, and a sniper with pierce will almost certainly win that race.

I believe it was mentioned in a podcast interview.  Not sure which one

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