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Boom Owl

Tie Defender Re-Design: Its Time

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I took a double Defender list to a charity tournament this last weekend and had a lot of fun with them.  My list (if anyone cares) was:

Rexler Brath

Juke

Jamming Beam

Collision Detector

Proton Rockets

Countess Ryad

Juke

Jamming Beam

Collision Detector

Cluster Missles

 

I had the most fun, and success, when I was able to cycle the Defenders in and out the the battle.  I would set  up Rexler to joust and the Countess to flank.  On the second round Rexler would duck behind an asteroid and the Countess would turn in for a range 3 shot.  I was able to get my opponents to generally chase after one  while the other circled around for another pass.  The Collision Detector really caught people by surprise (and saved me from some poor flying).  It let me escape a few traps as well.  I had 2 win and 3 losses so it was not the best list out there, but very enjoyable.  The 4 K turn and 3-5 speed moves were obvious choices that people expected and set traps for.  So it was interesting to try and find better moves and I was often able to do that.  Sometimes the 4 K was just the best  move and I could take the damage for a round.  It was not easy to eliminate enemy ships though with only two fighters of my own.   I guess I don't see any need for changes, its fun, it can be blocked, it can win and it can lose.  Just my two cents.

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I both agree and disagree with the OP. The flip here is flying 2 Defenders vs flying 1 named one. 

Flying 2, or 1 generic, can often be a kind of uninteresting experience, for the obvious reasons. Much 4k, much points, not great offence, not a lot of thrill.

However, I really love flying a named pilot in a mixed list. It acts like a corner stone, on which you build your plays. The white 4k and token stack are crucial to this.

If anything, I'd like the frame as it is to be the elite config. A weaker version, similar to x7 or TIEd, would open up interesting possibilities for list building with multiples or a cheaper specialist.

 

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Let's assume pilot packs will be a thing (I mean, they almost are  assuredly going to happen at this point).  They should release more pilots for the current TIE Defender as well as make duplicates of the new pilots and current pilots for the TIE Defender Elite.

"But why not just release it as a configuration!?" you may be asking.

Because the CURRENT Defender's ship ability should have been a configuration. Instead, it's baked into the ship chassis and would make any new configurations WAY too insane with new abilities PLUS the ship's current ability. The Elite would use the same dial, just instead of Full Throttle, essentially the old X7 title, it gets the old TIE/D title's ability. It also avoids excessive wording on an elite config card negating the Full Throttle text. On top of all that, this is a decent way to artificially give the Imperials a "new" ship.

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8 minutes ago, Kehl_Aecea said:

Let's assume pilot packs will be a thing (I mean, they almost are  assuredly going to happen at this point).  They should release more pilots for the current TIE Defender as well as make duplicates of the new pilots and current pilots for the TIE Defender Elite.

"But why not just release it as a configuration!?" you may be asking.

Because the CURRENT Defender's ship ability should have been a configuration. Instead, it's baked into the ship chassis and would make any new configurations WAY too insane with new abilities PLUS the ship's current ability. The Elite would use the same dial, just instead of Full Throttle, essentially the old X7 title, it gets the old TIE/D title's ability. It also avoids excessive wording on an elite config card negating the Full Throttle text. On top of all that, this is a decent way to artificially give the Imperials a "new" ship.

Sorry to say I actually kind of like this idea...

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9 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

This is about it. I honestly don’t want to take anything away from the Defender. It’s such an iconic piece within the X-Wing design space.

 If we want to change it, give it configs. But I really like what we have now as the stock model, though it should be just a hair cheaper 

 

5 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

There’s room for more by way of a config, but I would also contend that they added a LOT with 2nd edition. Most notably:

- Blue banks

- 2K

- Native Boost & Evade

- A shield

Elite config seems all but a given to me at some point (imps need new stuff anyway), and I have no doubt it will give it more offensive power.

Is it currently paying too much for what it does? Well, yes. OP results prove this if nothing else does. So clearly a small cost reduction is in order.

Would more customization options make it more fun? Well, also yes. Currently it has the Juke slot and a Sensor (with few good choices for this chassis), plus two weapons that a 3-primary never needs. More pilots would lend variety. A config would be amazing. More slots is probably a pipe dream but would a mod be too much to ask?

Mainly it needs to be cheaper, especially the non-Rexler named pilots.

Other than that, I and most others find it thematic and fun.

This.

A Defender Elite Configuration basically needs to add firepower; specifically some version of the old /x7 double-tap would make sense.

I would love to see Vult Skerris and Darth Vader as pilots, but balancing Vader in a Defender needs a lot of thinking about because Darth Vader/Defender Elite/Supernatural Reflexes would be potentially a this-is-basically-your-entire-squad monster and for good reason (but would need to allow for + academy pilot to actually be legal, limiting the cost to a maximum of 177)

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Posted (edited)

Completely disagree. The Defender is already a unique ship with its own quirks, and there is *so* much more to it than 'lol 4k every round' and 'lol token stacks'. One of the most nuanced and thought-intensive endgames I've ever had in an X-Wing match was Rexler VS Rexler - and not *one* round out of the 10 or so it took to close out the game was both of us 4k-ing (anecdotal, sure, but nevertheless).
The 'Elite' from Rebels was a paint scheme, not a configuration difference, and while I wouldn't mind the old TIE/D cannon double-tap returning, it would need to remove or replace Full Throttle if it did.
The ship could maybe use a very small (1-2) further points reduction to make it a bit more manageable in a squad, but we definitely don't need three of them at once or fundamental changes to a ship that is fine the way it is.
Plus, it's my favourite. Please let's not mess with it!

Edited by MalusCalibur

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TIE Defenders were my favorite ship from XWA, and were the first ships that I got because I love their lore.

I like their place in 2.0 being as tanky as they are, and as expensive as they are. The full throttle and white 4k I like, as I believe one of the keys to been better with this ship is choosing when not to go fast or 4k.

Their point cost is still rough for list building though, but I also think it is (more or less) a fair cost.

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2 hours ago, MalusCalibur said:

The 'Elite' from Rebels was a paint scheme, not a configuration difference, and while I wouldn't mind the old TIE/D cannon double-tap returning, it would need to remove or replace Full Throttle if it did.

This is actually not true. The Elite was a further development of the design.

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Wouldnt mind seeing the defender play with its entire dial, similar to Wolffe playing with both his arcs.

Full throttle could then be:

2 non-recurring charges "While you have at least 1 charge active, decrease the difficulty of your red maneuvers. After you fully execute a speed 3-5 maneuver, you may spend 1 charge to perform an evade action. After fully executing a speed 1-2 maneuver, recover 1 charge."

The entire dial is open, until the defender decides to get his free evade tokens. They need to play with going fast for evades, and slowing down to recover charges. And doing 2 free evades in a row, leaves you with 0 charges and brings your red maneuvers back to the dial and also zero benefits from 3-5 maneuvers aka 4ks until you do a slow maneuver to recover a charge.

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17 minutes ago, wurms said:

2 non-recurring charges "While you have at least 1 charge active, decrease the difficulty of your red maneuvers. After you fully execute a speed 3-5 maneuver, you may spend 1 charge to perform an evade action. After fully executing a speed 1-2 maneuver, recover 1 charge."

 

Like, a lot.... But maybe....

One thing I like about flying Defenders is that fast moves and 4ks are so expected, you can play around with that. Making it charge based is possibly laying out a map for your opponent to read.....

But it's sure interesting to think about how to play your version and make it not so easy to see.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Jehan Menasis said:

Ehm, no.

You can just simply lower the cost.

I don't believe FFG can both {a} lower the cost of the current TIE/D enough to make it playable {b} have a ship which is balanced.

Edited by theBitterFig

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9 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

I would love to see Vult Skerris and Darth Vader as pilots

Can I then get Fenn Rau in a StarViper plz? 

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It only really needs a points reduction. Especially the named pilots. Vessery is priced out of most cost effective lists.

 

Some configurations would be cool down the road. Something to give it Ion like in canon. And in Disney canon they have six lasers! Half again a Tie Interceptor. So 3 dice attack is weak. A Tie Elite configuration with an extra attack die would represent Disney canon better.

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16 minutes ago, All Shields Forward said:

Some configurations would be cool down the road. Something to give it Ion like in canon. And in Disney canon they have six lasers! Half again a Tie Interceptor. So 3 dice attack is weak. A Tie Elite configuration with an extra attack die would represent Disney canon better.

Canon should not be an excuse to break gameplay.

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11 minutes ago, Octarine-08 said:

Canon should not be an excuse to break gameplay.

A fun, and I don’t think broken, implementation would be something where if you have an equipped cannon, you may choose to roll an extra die. If you do, when in the neutralize results step you must spend one uncancelled result to apply the cannons secondary effect. All other results apply damage as normal.

So an ion, or tractor, or jamming beam could give you an extra die on attack, but your damage potential doesn’t increase. You just roll one extra die but must apply the cannon effect.

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21 hours ago, svelok said:

Would this be cool? (Yes, I'm just blatantly stealing taking inspiration from Ric Olie's ability.)

S1T2YbE.png

Dial would be exactly the same as currently, but with the 2-hard as white and the 4-k as red. 

take out sensor and put in tech.

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Here's an idea.  Keep the original Full throttle, remove boost, add slam.  Yes, I am saying let the ship use slam and earn 2 evade for the cost of not firing that turn.  Have a ship that is so ridiculously fast that engaging and disengaging is really, really, really part of its design.

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1 hour ago, All Shields Forward said:

It only really needs a points reduction. Especially the named pilots. Vessery is priced out of most cost effective lists.

This is true, but perhaps self correcting. The problem is the lack of TL ships in the Empire, and Vedder really needs at least two ships that can grab them to work.

But targeting computer could open that up more. Because while Vader is a good option, it leaves too few points for the rest of the list. The best I’ve done with Vessery is pairing with a V1 and a Gunboat. Solid, but hardly top of the Empire. But Vessery with Whisper and Soontir, each sporting the TC seems potentially very good. Or for real stupid stunts, cluster missiles and a TIE/ln swarm with as many TC as you can get.

Good? Probably not. But potentially stupid fun? Maybe.

I honestly think all the pilots are in a decent spot personally. But I also think if you are running named defenders, only run one. I think two ship lists just are too variance prone, and it lacks enough punch. While with the Deltas you can get a third good ship in there, so double Deltas is viable.

But running Rexler Ryad is bad news.

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