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Boom Owl

Tie Defender Re-Design: Its Time

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16 minutes ago, McGarnacle said:

I think the Defender is fine as-is. Full Throttle seems to represent the ship being so fast its hard to hurt, and it means it needs to be flown in a unique way. Maybe get rid of the 1 blue banks and make it cheaper? The problem is the ship is sooo tanky and expensive but can't shoot down its cost in points. Excepts for maybe Rexy.

This is about it. I honestly don’t want to take anything away from the Defender. It’s such an iconic piece within the X-Wing design space.

 If we want to change it, give it configs. But I really like what we have now as the stock model, though it should be just a hair cheaper 

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10 minutes ago, millertime059 said:

Do you also want to completely get rid of Leia then? Because, of not, then my opinion on the matter would be unfit to post.

It makes the ship unique. Every suggestion I’ve seen is to strip out any unique feature from the craft, which I vehemently oppose.

Let me ask, what is people’s objective here, what is their objection to the defender as is? Do you think it is too strong, too expensive, too boring? Do you want to be able to fly 3 in a list? What is the fundamental goal people have with these proposed changes?

What about IG-88, a ship that is probably most similar in profile. One more health, same agility and attack. Good dial, ship ability, sensor slot, evade, etc. Some differences, for sure, but in terms of overall toughness they match up. Yet I see no such cries for major change. And it is a ship you can get three ability and token sharing ships on. With double taps. Why is the defender a problem, yet the Aggressor not?

Part genuine curiosity, part I find many of the suggestions here (remove evade action completely, red K, and reducing health) extremely objectionable.

Get rid of Leia entirely?  No.  But a redesign to make her more balanced wouldn't be terrible.  Maybe she can only inspire a single ship with her 3 charges, maybe with a range limit, maybe a timing difference.  But as both a Defender rework and a Leia rework are in the never-going-to-happen realm, I don't feel like going too deep on it at the moment.

//

The issue with the Defender (which I don't dislike, but might do differently if going from ground up) is mostly the cost (but also that constant 4Ks are boring*).  70 points for an init 1 generic is wicked high.  Aces are mid-80s.  This radically constrains list building.  The ship is powerful, but frequently not able to earn back it's points.  The only way to have a playable Defender is to lower the cost.  The only way to lower the cost is to dial back the power level.

The IG-88 just got a pretty major price cut, and folks are fooling around more with them, trying out 3-ship builds, maybe with IG-88 crew, maybe not.  It's kind of an interesting time for IGs, because FFG realized that their cost wasn't reasonable to their power level.  But the biggest reason that no one is thinking of a revision for the Aggressor but are for the Defender is that the Defender is a popular video game and TV show ship, but so strange and niche that folks can't really fly it.

 

 

 

* I can imagine some sort of ship where white K-Turns or T-Rolls or S-Loops moves would work.  I'd probably design it with a really weak primary weapon (maybe even 1 die!) but the potential to spend recurring charges to gain attack dice (spend 2 of 2 recurring charges to gain 2 attack dice).  When I was thinking about a Hapan Miy'til fighter, that seemed thematic.  Hapan lasers in lore were supposed to take a longer time to recharge than others, and a ship which can only get a 3-dice attack every other turn is exactly the ship which doesn't need to K-turn every round, thus exactly the ship which should have a White K-Turn.  I think there could be some sort of interesting design along those lines.

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Maybe, instead of the white K-Turn, they could give the Defender a variation on Dalan Oberos’ StarViper ability;

“After you fully execute a speed 3-5 maneuver, you may gain 1 stress token to rotate your ship 90 degrees.”

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1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

**** no to Force Talent and regular Talent.

I think any force user gaining access to the Talent slot is fundamentally wrong, if only because force charges are essentially already the best Talent upgrade in the game.

Yeah, force has probably been their biggest mistake since rebooting the game. It's a stupid mechanic that shouldn't exist. So much for not getting free actions anymore. 

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, millertime059 said:

And silly me sitting here thinking force is one of the best and most interesting changes to 2.0, and really helps differentiate Jedi/ with from other pilots.

I don't think built in focus is interesting and the only way it differentiates force users from other ships is it gives force users greater inherent action economy.

If getting a free evade is dumb for performing 3+ speed maneuvers, how is getting effectively free focus every turn (with no consequences) not strictly worse? At least there's conditionals for the evade. 

Edited by AceWing

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6 minutes ago, AceWing said:

Yeah, force has probably been their biggest mistake since rebooting the game. It's a stupid mechanic that shouldn't exist. So much for not getting free actions anymore. 

Force tokens are a neat and well executed mechanic, force upgrades are not.
 

4 minutes ago, millertime059 said:

And silly me sitting here thinking force is one of the best and most interesting changes to 2.0, and really helps differentiate Jedi/ with from other pilots.

Exactly. 

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1 minute ago, AceWing said:

I don't think built in focus is interesting and the only way it differentiates force users from other ships is it gives force users greater interest action economy.

If getting a free evade is dumb for performing 3+ speed maneuvers, how is getting effectively free focus every turn (with no conferences) not strictly worse? At least there's conditionals for the evade. 

Imagine getting an evade, a focus, and three force points. Naked.

That's not NPE or anything.

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1 minute ago, Captain Lackwit said:

Imagine getting an evade, a focus, and three force points. Naked.

That's not NPE or anything.

There should be nothing in this game you get for free. Benefits should be the result of something you were able to pull off, probably in flying. Force is inelegant and overpowered. White k-turns are inelegant and overpowered.  Both should not exist. 

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The problem is the ship is sooo tanky and expensive but can't shoot down its cost in points.

This is a problem with the design though, and why Full throttle ends up leaving in most of the suggestions above.  Because the defender can be so tanky, it needs to cost a lot and that means it can't dish out offense most of the time.

IMO, the problem with the white 4k is the lack of consequences.  if someone blocks a normal 4k, their stressed and facing the wrong direction.  If someone blocks a Defender 4k, they just do it next turn.  Even with Leia, blocking a 4k has a consequence, as they now need to stress to k-turn.  And Since someone asked my opinion on it, I'd like to see the Defenders lose full throttle in exchange for the following: "After you partially execute a maneuver, gain one stress token and one strain token.  after you fully execute a maneuver, perform " as well as losing most of the blue on their dial. Because of this, they go down in cost massively and also probably see more white on the dial.  The i1 might go away entirely too.  Either way, I'd like to see a much stronger risk/reward strategy with this ship.

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Scopes said:

FFS, you got a redesign with 2.0. 

That's why it needs another redesign though.... X7 is bad game design and having it stapled to all Defenders in 2.0 sort of killed them because almost nothing else has that kind of token stacking anymore

Edited by Kieransi

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I would like to see Defenders get punishes for mistakes. Blocking could cause a strain, stress could be much harder to shed, etc.

I would, however, like to see something to represent their tons of cannons. Whether that is being able to spend an Evade to add an extra attack die, or spend a charge from an equipped missile to do so, I would be super happy to see it.

Additionally, you could allow them the ability to always an ion cannon stapled on, rather than full throttle - "when you perform an attack, after the Neutralize Results step, you may spend 1 hit/Crit to give the defender an Ion Token."

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Posted (edited)

Hey @Boom Owl

I think you put a lot of thought and effort into this. Also you've mentioned some good things before in the past. So, this thread bewilders me cuz it doesn't seem sensible at all, nor have I felt this way about the Defenders at all. 

Unfortunately also, Boom, reading through your reasoning does not make sense to me whatsoever in the slightest. 

1. White k-turns are an amazing feature, and truly a unique feature that forces new thoughts on how to fly. You want to be setting up lanes of flip flop kturns to maximize that powerful super joust that no other ship has. 

2. Alone, the Tie D with Full throttle, or in a super joust is literally representative as the best small ship in the game. 

These two qualities made for amazing learning lessons on how to fly better when played with and against in my games with new players. It really showed how targeting was important, and how high efficiency works. This made people into far better players. 

The current design is fast, brutal, boost-able, and is an amazing platform against large fat turrets. 

So, I have no idea how any of these qualities is meant to be bad. They teach the game, they're maybe the most good one can do. 

--

On to the bad:  I really wish they didn't give boost innately: being customizable (with lower cost) would have been better). On the flip side, having boost innately makes these ships qualify for balance checks against 1.0 NPE failures. 

They're really not very customizable, and current missiles and cannons don't really work on these. 

Adding a shield just makes them more expensive, and idk if it's needed.  Again though, makes these such a bliss to play vs NPEs. 

--

In 1.0 Tie D/x7s were critical as a moment of last defense against 1.0 NPE turrets, like Dengar and Fat Han. As a player who's played with them extensively to test highest level possible Tier 1 matchups, I recommend people take a closer look at these ships, as their strengths are both nuanced and GOOD for the game and educating players. 

Edited by Blail Blerg

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And you pay a ton of points for that, such that for a single 3 die arc locked ship you will struggle to earn their value offensively unless you play them well.

And there are lots of things that get either multiple tokens, or abilities to significantly improve the defensiveness of the ship.

Han, Boba, Fenn, Fangs more generally, cheap coordinate (sheathipede/ escape craft), Norra, Jedi, Phantoms, Guri, Jake, TIE/v1, Lando, Luke, various IG-88 builds, Moldy Crow, Del/ Iden swarms, Feroph, Luminara, Fearless swarms, and you get the idea.

There are many ways to get token stacks, rerolls, or other defensive abilities that can significantly improve the lifespan of a ship/ ships. The Defender may be a self contained method, but it’s priced for it too. I mean Palob is a thing, and he can token stack while stealing his opponents tokens. Like is Han’s native ability on an I6 turret somehow less defensive than a Defender? Who would you take in a fight, a naked defender or a naked Han? Not so easy of a choice, is it.

Honestly a good majority of the suggestions seem entirely unserious, or the type that would remove the defender from play completely.

Do you have a problem with E-wings and their double modded torps on the initial engagement? That’s the inverse of the defender stack.

They're also higher I, similar stats, and have similar action bars.

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2 hours ago, AceWing said:

There should be nothing in this game you get for free. Benefits should be the result of something you were able to pull off, probably in flying. Force is inelegant and overpowered. White k-turns are inelegant and overpowered.  Both should not exist. 

You know, I agree but only halfway? But disagree, because that gives some things inherent value which can be adjusted for by cost. Countess Ryad for instance is very well costed because her ability iS INSANE.

But you know what? It's cool. She can still be killed, and with her your opponent isn't running much. So every move with that ace counts.

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Posted (edited)

@Blail Blerg

  • You 100% don't have to agree with my opinion about the Defender. 
  • It was on a short list of ships that I was eager to see change in significant ways from 1.0 to 2.0. I am disappointed with the design. 
  • I think the gameplay available to the Defender and the role that it can play in the faction is severely limited by the White K Turn and Token Stack. 
  • Its not overpowered at the moment. Weak offense and appropriately punishing point cost will have to guarantee its balance for the entirety of 2.0s shelf life.  
  • The ship itself is so much cooler and has so much more potential than the copy paste from 1.0 ship that we ended up with. Thats how I feel. 
Edited by Boom Owl

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7 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

has so much more potential than the copy paste from 1.0 ship that we ended up with. Thats how I feel. 

There’s room for more by way of a config, but I would also contend that they added a LOT with 2nd edition. Most notably:

- Blue banks

- 2K

- Native Boost & Evade

- A shield

Elite config seems all but a given to me at some point (imps need new stuff anyway), and I have no doubt it will give it more offensive power.

Is it currently paying too much for what it does? Well, yes. OP results prove this if nothing else does. So clearly a small cost reduction is in order.

Would more customization options make it more fun? Well, also yes. Currently it has the Juke slot and a Sensor (with few good choices for this chassis), plus two weapons that a 3-primary never needs. More pilots would lend variety. A config would be amazing. More slots is probably a pipe dream but would a mod be too much to ask?

Mainly it needs to be cheaper, especially the non-Rexler named pilots.

Other than that, I and most others find it thematic and fun.

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24 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

@Blail Blerg

  • You 100% don't have to agree with my opinion about the Defender. 
  • It was on a short list of ships that I was eager to see change in significant ways from 1.0 to 2.0. I am disappointed with the design. 
  • I think the gameplay available to the Defender and the role that it can play in the faction is severely limited by the White K Turn and Token Stack. 
  • Its not overpowered at the moment. Weak offense and appropriately punishing point cost will have to guarantee its balance for the entirety of 2.0s shelf life.  
  • The ship itself is so much cooler and has so much more potential than the copy paste from 1.0 ship that we ended up with. Thats how I feel. 

The problem is not agreeing with opinions. Its that I don't agree with your reasoning whatsoever, and that's an exceptionally dangerous place to be when we want to trade insightful commentary. 

#1, the 1.0 design was not disappointing to most I think. And I've explained why the white K is very interesting and useful. I've explained that blocking the token stack is very important for counterplay. 

#2 the dial is now much better

#3 i don't see how its limiting at all. you'd replace it with a different gimmick?

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