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DarthSempai

How to fix the V19-torrent

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Many players seem to be of the opinion that the V19-Torrent just aren't good enough. They're cheap filler similar to Z-95 or Tie-Fighter, but without the support, dials or ability necessary to make them work, and any missile on them seems to be over costed with the difficulty of getting a TL (even with synchronized console). Moreover, the PS3 with an EPT is costed approximately 2 points too much when compared to almost every other ship out there (who usually pay 2 points for a jump from I1 to I3 + an EPT). 

How would you like this fix : the Blue Squadron Protector gets a second missile slot. 

The gold squadron trooper with barrage rocket could potentially be too good, being a cheaper Tie-Bomber with Brocket and access to reroll with sinker, I can see with it would be unpleasant to face a swarm of those. However, why not make use of the ''overcostedness' of the Blue Squaddie to justify an extra slot, like they are doing with the Hyenas. This way, there is a legitimate reason to pay those extra points and they give the torrents generics that usually complement jedi and ARC's a bit more flexibility, either as cheap blocker or as small missile boat, without being too cheap that you can just spam 6 of those.


Thoughts?

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Posted (edited)

The 25 point gold trooper is an absolute bargain for what they are and need zero improvements. You have to price them in a faction vacuum that has access to 42 point Arcs, highly mobile Jedi, and a R2 howlrunner in the way of Sinker.  

The real problem with them is that there is absolutely zero incentive to take anything but the Golds.  The price increase for a single initiative and access to talent is just too steep.  And the named ones are just too expensive relative to other options and list building mechanics.

Edited by viedit

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, DarthSempai said:

Many players seem to be of the opinion that the V19-Torrent just aren't good enough.

They are wrong. The named Torrents are a giant mess because their points scale incorrectly.

The Gold Squadron Troopers though are nearly ideal filler already because of their combination of good hp (specifically 5 on 2 agility), decent dial, linked action, and i2 instead of i1. 

:Jedi::CloneTroppa::CloneTroppa::CloneTroppa::CloneTroppa::CloneTroppa:

Edited by Boom Owl

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Posted (edited)

thoughts:

torrent is fine

bizarre jump in points from I 2 onwards isn't

Easy fix --> point cost reduction

 

Gold --> 25 points (perfection)

Blue --> 27 points (-2) -talent-

Tucker --> 27 points (-4)

Swoop --> 27 points (-5)

Axe --> 29 points (-5) -talent-

Kickback --> 31 points (-5) -talent-

Oddball --> 33 points (-5) -talent-

 

 

done

 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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I'll admit I thought that people would be more interested in a cheap brocket carrier :P . Is that because you think that a cheap (36 points) torrent with reroll from sinker would be too good? Or maybe because it becomes too similar to Jonus + tie-bombers and you don't want all factions to play/feel  the same or be able to fill the same niche?

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3 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Blue --> 27 points (-2)

Hmm. I may be wrong about Debris Gambit making them consistently tankier (white evade linked from barrel roll if within range 1 of an obstacle, like Sabine pilot) being the reason they're priced the way they are. At 27 points they'd be 32 points (enough space for 6x) with Juke. 1x Blue with Juke = meh to the point of being almost pointless unless they're shooting last in a list, then still mehish. 6x Blue with Juke = nasty potential due to a pseudo-snowball effect with concentrated fire. 

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Posted (edited)

getting a second upgrade slot wouldn't fix the core problem of them being way too expensive

Just now, Hiemfire said:

Hmm. I may be wrong about Debris Gambit making them consistently tankier (white evade linked from barrel roll if within range 1 of an obstacle, like Sabine pilot) being the reason they're priced the way they are. At 27 points they'd be 32 points (enough space for 6x) with Juke. 1x Blue with Juke = meh to the point of being almost pointless unless they're shooting last in a list, then still mehish. 6x Blue with Juke = nasty potential due to a pseudo-snowball effect with concentrated fire. 

 

if you ain't a phantom, juke isn't actually that good

2 dice, no mods? pft. The n1 is going to laugh all over that

Edited by ficklegreendice

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, DarthSempai said:

I'll admit I thought that people would be more interested in a cheap brocket carrier :P . Is that because you think that a cheap (36 points) torrent with reroll from sinker would be too good? Or maybe because it becomes too similar to Jonus + tie-bombers and you don't want all factions to play/feel  the same or be able to fill the same niche?

For me, it's because I think the concept of Barrage Rockets sucks, and I kinda wish they weren't in the game.  Ordnance should be hard.  Locks with most stuff, but I like how Proton Rockets works as a Focus/Bullseye weapon.

Edited by theBitterFig

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2 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

getting a second upgrade slot wouldn't fix the core problem of them being way too expensive

 

if you ain't a phantom, juke isn't actually that good

2 dice, no mods? pft. The n1 is going to laugh all over that

2 dice still have a fair chance of rolling a hit, Juke increases the chances of that hit getting through even without mods. 1 Juking Blue, as I said, would be mostly meh since the target would most likely go "nope" and burn a token to block it. More than one firing on the same target changes things a bit, especially when dealing with 1-2 green dice ships (other than Rebel Han right now). Not saying that N1s won't be more efficient at it, just that it is a potential reason for the Blue's pricing due to the pseudo-snowball effect of them in mass with the upgrade.

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19 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

thoughts: torrent is fine; bizarre jump in points from I 2 onwards isn't; Easy fix --> point cost reduction

  • Gold --> 25 points (perfection)
  • Blue --> 27 points (-2) -talent-
  • Tucker --> 27 points (-4)
  • Swoop --> 27 points (-5)
  • Axe --> 29 points (-5) -talent-
  • Kickback --> 31 points (-5) -talent-
  • Oddball --> 33 points (-5) -talent-

done [Reformatted to save space]

These seem about right.  If the Gold is correct, it's 1 point more than a TIE with the same Init (Obsidian).  As such, Blue at Black TIE + 1, Tucker at Night Beast + 1, Oddball at Mauler Mithel + 1 all make sense.

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14 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

6x Blue with Juke = nasty potential due to a pseudo-snowball effect with concentrated fire. 

Not really all that nasty.  Without some red dice mods, Juke math still works out bad.

6 Juke Blues would do 3.338 damage to a ship with 3 green dice and a focus.

5 Golds + Sinker does 4.169 against the same target.

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More threatening is mass crack shot.  Focus those little buggers and chuck dice.  Something is going to die.  If you could get 5 of them with at i3 + Crack shot for 28 points you have room for Delta luminara.  That list would put a hurt on things.

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9 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

2 dice still have a fair chance of rolling a hit, Juke increases the chances of that hit getting through even without mods. 1 Juking Blue, as I said, would be mostly meh since the target would most likely go "nope" and burn a token to block it. More than one firing on the same target changes things a bit, especially when dealing with 1-2 green dice ships (other than Rebel Han right now). Not saying that N1s won't be more efficient at it, just that it is a potential reason for the Blue's pricing due to the pseudo-snowball effect of them in mass with the upgrade.

I absolutely get your concern, but I don't think that 5 juking BSPs (with points to spare for another BSP or GST) under the currently pricing is realistically all that much different that six juking BSPs.  The Gold Squadron Trooper is a great little ship but I'm solidly in the camp that all the other ones need a price drop.

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black squadron aces at 26 each get a talent, a far better dial, and far better support with TIE fighters generally having FAR superior pilot abilities

don't think blue squaddies, even with their stellar statline, is going to do much more harm

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8 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

black squadron aces at 26 each get a talent, a far better dial, and far better support with TIE fighters generally having FAR superior pilot abilities

don't think blue squaddies, even with their stellar statline, is going to do much more harm

5x BSA with Juke + Howlrunner with Juke fits.  It'll do about as much damage as Howl + Iden + 5x Academy, but will more easily fail against some ships out there.

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The bigger problem with mass juke is that you are spending so much on the upgrade that you may as well have another ship.  That's one more arc firing.  One more blocker.  One more ship to conserve MOV.  The torrents role is to chip away more MOV from your opponent than it gives up.  You do that through area control and blocking.  Deny your opponent actions and positioning.  Light them up.  The more ships you have shooting with mods (AKA focus or TL) the better chance you have pushing damage in.   

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2 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

thoughts:

torrent is fine

bizarre jump in points from I 2 onwards isn't

Easy fix --> point cost reduction

 

Gold --> 25 points (perfection)

Blue --> 27 points (-2) -talent-

Tucker --> 27 points (-4)

Swoop --> 27 points (-5)

Axe --> 29 points (-5) -talent-

Kickback --> 31 points (-5) -talent-

Oddball --> 33 points (-5) -talent-

 

 

done

 

Seems legit. The ps2 is one of the most efficient ships in the game, the elite generic is a little too dear, the named guys are hilariously terribly overpriced.

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3 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

thoughts:

torrent is fine

bizarre jump in points from I 2 onwards isn't

Easy fix --> point cost reduction

 

Gold --> 25 points (perfection)

Blue --> 27 points (-2) -talent-

Tucker --> 27 points (-4)

Swoop --> 27 points (-5)

Axe --> 29 points (-5) -talent-

Kickback --> 31 points (-5) -talent-

Oddball --> 33 points (-5) -talent-

 

 

done

 

While we're at it, let's also do a 2-3 point reduction on every ARC pilot that's not the 104th Battalion pilot or Sinker. 5 points to move from IN2 to IN3 with a talent slot is absolutely bonkers.

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, PhantomFO said:

While we're at it, let's also do a 2-3 point reduction on every ARC pilot that's not the 104th Battalion pilot or Sinker. 5 points to move from IN2 to IN3 with a talent slot is absolutely bonkers.

were is up to me...

104th --> 42 (seems fine to me)

Squad Seven --> 44 (-3) ...seriously wtf

Jag --> 46 (-3) [I mean, his ability IS pretty good]

Wolfe --> 48 (-3) [I could honestly live with Wolfe at his current price point, but it doesn't seem terribly right next to Braylen]

Sinker --> 54 (-0) [...dude, it's a powerful ******* ability]

Oddball --> 48 (-7) [there is no reason to ever take him over Wolfe if he costs more. This guy is the Tomax Bren of Arcs]

Edited by ficklegreendice

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Posted (edited)
44 minutes ago, viedit said:

Would it break your brain to know I got top 8 templates at a trial using Oddball arc and a seven squad vet arc?  😁

Nope.  Non-Gold Torrents: Clearly overpriced.  Non-104th ARCs: not nearly as clear.  The spread between 104th and Squad Seven is high, but it's a lot harder to say who is wrong.

When the Republic ARC first got points, I kinda felt the Squad Seven Veteran at 47 was absolutely spot-on in price, but the 104th was an outlier with how much lower it was than what I'd expect.  Compare to a B-Wing, for example, and how much more a 104th gets for 1 point more.  Or compare to a Special Forces Gunner TIE/sf, which is 44 points.  The ARC is 2 points cheaper and doesn't fly quite as well, but the ARC is tankier and has an always-on 3/2 red dice statline, as opposed to 3/0 or 2/2 which has to be chosen at time-of-action.

But on the other hand, the 104th hasn't been causing problems with it's price.  It kind of shows that, to a certain extent, what matters are the breakpoints more than the particular price.  ARCs aren't in the 5-per-list bracket, B-Wings aren't in the 5-per-list Bracket, and maybe it doesn't matter if there's a minor cost difference, because they aren't in the same faction.  There will be particular sets of upgrades and total squads (4x 104th with 7th Fleet Gunner should be priced out), but often a point or two doesn't really matter.

53 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

were is up to me...

104th --> 42 (seems fine to me)

Squad Seven --> 44 (-3) ...seriously wtf

Jag --> 46 (-3) [I mean, his ability IS pretty good]

Wolfe --> 48 (-3) [I could honestly live with Wolfe at his current price point, but it doesn't seem terribly right next to Braylen]

Sinker --> 54 (-0) [...dude, it's a powerful ******* ability]

Oddball --> 48 (-7) [there is no reason to ever take him over Wolfe if he costs more. This guy is the Tomax Bren of Arcs]

Oddball dropping down to about Wolfe-price does make sense to me.  There are enough Init 5s out there who are the same or cheaper than strong Init 3 and 4 pilots.  Duchess, Rexler, Tallie, Thane, Tomax.

But I just have a minor issue with the Squad Seven being the same price as the Kimogila; I kinda feel like a SSV should be +2 points over a Cartel Executioner.  More realistically the Kimogila probably needs a price cut, as well as Rebel ARCs, and TIE/sf, and probably two dozen other things.

//

Overall, I just can't shake the feeling that if the 104th had cost 44/45, folks wouldn't have felt 47 for a Squad Seven was out-of-line.

I'm not saying the 104th needs a price increase, but mostly that the frame-of-reference will impact how we view ships.

Edited by theBitterFig

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