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JediPartisan

Balance

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, ScummyRebel said:

Not if you use a flaming snow trooper 🙂 

Well, yes, but for Stormtroopers :)

Edit and for Rebel troopers/fleet troopers. 

Edited by Derrault

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7 hours ago, Derrault said:

Well, yes, but for Stormtroopers :)

Edit and for Rebel troopers/fleet troopers. 

But not for a whole squad of scout wich can launch 8 black dice 1 red with critical surge and pierce 1.

Tho, my comment is a bit useless, because Frag are not "overpowered" on certain type of unit while being godlike on other. It depends, for the most part.

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5 hours ago, RaevenKS said:

But not for a whole squad of scout wich can launch 8 black dice 1 red with critical surge and pierce 1.

Tho, my comment is a bit useless, because Frag are not "overpowered" on certain type of unit while being godlike on other. It depends, for the most part.

Godlike on the scoring units, that everyone takes lots of? Cause if so that doesn't depend much. I am late to the party but it looks to me like frag should've been slightly more than 5 points points to at least make SOME consideration.

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Just now, TauntaunScout said:

Godlike on the scoring units, that everyone takes lots of? Cause if so that doesn't depend much. I am late to the party but it looks to me like frag should've been slightly more than 5 points points to at least make SOME consideration.

To be fair, I take frag grenade, but not on all my socring units. On snowtroopers, or fleet troopers, yes, where critical surge can be the most useful (saturation) but on storm or regular rebels, i'm more toward playing impact to avoid some eventual rush, or to be able to deal with armored unit (even if, yes, they are not "that" used in "big american competition", I find people sturggling a lot to dealt with my 3 tl-tt when they have nothing or just dlt-19).

But yes, perhaps they should cost 6, or at most 7. more, i'm not sure.

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Frags really aren't overpowered.  If anything, they present a nice "jack of all trades" grenade option.  They're helpful for any unit that's going to get within range one of the enemy, (besides Deathtroopers, ironically)  but otherwise, they're kinda a waste of 5 points.  Besides Fleet Troopers and Snows, and possibly Wookiees and royal guard, there are not a lot of units that really want to charge in with them.  Depending on your terrain, concussion grenades might be better on some units, while impact are better against vehicles.  

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So with 4 pages in, I want to bring up a question that really wasn’t seriously explored.

How do we think the two new factions alter the face of game balance? Seppies vs Rebels, suddenly Rebels have the better save (assuming the CIS other units roll comparably to the spoiled B1 Battle Droids). Who will become the better run ‘n gun between empire and republic? Will droid numbers overwhelm Rebels anyway?

I know it is pretty hard to judge since we only know one CIS Corps unit, and one republic corps unit and one commander (the other unit cards are unannounced). Just speculating how we think that’ll go.

 

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12 minutes ago, ScummyRebel said:

So with 4 pages in, I want to bring up a question that really wasn’t seriously explored.

How do we think the two new factions alter the face of game balance? Seppies vs Rebels, suddenly Rebels have the better save (assuming the CIS other units roll comparably to the spoiled B1 Battle Droids). Who will become the better run ‘n gun between empire and republic? Will droid numbers overwhelm Rebels anyway?

I know it is pretty hard to judge since we only know one CIS Corps unit, and one republic corps unit and one commander (the other unit cards are unannounced). Just speculating how we think that’ll go.

 

To me it looks like the rebels are going to be better than the droids.

Battledroids have numbers but lack surge to anything, have white defenses, no key words to boost attack or defense, and even lack most of the common corps upgrade slots (gear, grenades). 

I suppose they will have a significant level of control considering the coordinate droid trooper key word, and the ability to take comms jammer could make capturing objective easier in the clutch. I suspect the corps won't be the heavy lifters of the droid armies. If that's true I could see that level of control for such a low cost being extremely helpful. 

It's probably too early to say though. 

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@ScummyRebel

I get the feeling with the CIS that the corp is primarily going to be just for show while the support, heavies, and SF are going to be where their heavy hitters are (It's like this with all factions, but I think that the gap for the CIS will be larger). I have no doubt that they will absolutely outnumber every faction with activations. As far as droids vs rebels, I think it's really going to come down to who hits the other first due to how bad the defense is. Rebels definitely have the damage to deal with the volume force of the CIS, but they will need to try and separate the units to try to avoid getting ganged up on (Saboteurs or Sabine?). The CIS player on the other hand will need to make sure that they don't spread their forces out too thin or else they'll get picked off too easily, which will be true when fighting any faction.

With what we've seen from the republic, I do think that they'll most certainly be at least on par with the empire for aggressive play. Potentially even more so due to how few your numbers will be in comparison to the other factions. I think that the Republic will end up being the most beginner friendly faction as it probably won't take as large of a cash investment to get a full army and their good attack and defense means that most of your attacks aren't wasted and you have some room for error with positioning. The Republic will likely need to focus more on the objectives similar to how rebel players need to do so, but because of their smaller numbers rather than poor defense.

This is how I currently view the two new factions and like you said we really don't know much at all about them, so take everything here with a grain of salt.

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Too soon to talk about it.

My *hope* for what they'll do is delete a lot of the attitudes of "there's no reason to take/not-take" this or that. When you might come up against one of four factions instead of one of two factions, such things are much harder to say with certainty. Maybe previously "useless" units will rock against Padme lists or something. Maybe taking lots of strike teams will be suicide if Watto's on the table or whatever.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, TauntaunScout said:

Too soon to talk about it.

My *hope* for what they'll do is delete a lot of the attitudes of "there's no reason to take/not-take" this or that. When you might come up against one of four factions instead of one of two factions, such things are much harder to say with certainty. Maybe previously "useless" units will rock against Padme lists or something. Maybe taking lots of strike teams will be suicide if Watto's on the table or whatever.

 

 

Unfortunately, this will never happen. I've been playing 40K / Fantasy / Legion over the last 10 years and I've never come across a book/faction that doesn't have auto-include / auto-not-include units. Obviously, I want this to happen, but I just don't think it's possible. 

 

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14 hours ago, ScummyRebel said:

So with 4 pages in, I want to bring up a question that really wasn’t seriously explored.

How do we think the two new factions alter the face of game balance? Seppies vs Rebels, suddenly Rebels have the better save (assuming the CIS other units roll comparably to the spoiled B1 Battle Droids). Who will become the better run ‘n gun between empire and republic? Will droid numbers overwhelm Rebels anyway?

I know it is pretty hard to judge since we only know one CIS Corps unit, and one republic corps unit and one commander (the other unit cards are unannounced). Just speculating how we think that’ll go.

 

CIS lean in towards cheap and plentiful, GAR lean towards expensive and powerful individually.

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CIS will have low save or low capability only on B1 guys. B2, commando, magna guards, even droideka, are all monstrous units in the lore. Remember that both clones and jedi were frightened by droideka. 

 

I predicted the cost of 6 per B1 before it release. I am pretty sure that B1 will be the only "cheap and bad" units of separatists. 

 

If you manage to do some math, basic beginner scenario plays with around 400pts each. 

With 2 squad of at max 54 (6 for another droide and I believe 12 for one of the weapons) and 8 B1 droides, we are still 350pts left. And I don't see Grevious being under 200points (hopefully he will be a bit better than Vader). So even with that, we have a 150pts droideka units. 

I may be wrong, but when you watch movies, series or read comics, books, separatist have as "bad thing" B1 and... Almost nothing else. 

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So to illustrate my point I give you the Invader League. Of the top 16 there are 12 imperial and 3 rebel (I’m not sure about the 0-0 between Ripasmaster | BR and Thomas). At the very least there are 1/3 the amount of rebels and at the possible worst it’s 1/4, not what you would expect to see in a balanced game. 

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4 hours ago, JediPartisan said:

 

 

So to illustrate my point I give you the Invader League. Of the top 16 there are 12 imperial and 3 rebel (I’m not sure about the 0-0 between Ripasmaster | BR and Thomas). At the very least there are 1/3 the amount of rebels and at the possible worst it’s 1/4, not what you would expect to see in a balanced game. 

The winner is highlighted in green, so it’s 12-4 Imperials. 

Thats just one league though bud, and I, as the person that runs it will be the first to admit that more Rebels would have made it into the single elims if we would have made better tables with less fire lanes in the round robin. With Bossk and DTs running around, it’s no wonder so many made it in.

Ill also take this time to mention a couple other tournament facts: 

-The top 12 at LVO were evenly split. 

-The last two Invader leagues were both won by rebels, even though more players have joined as Imperials (60/40 split). 

-Out of the top 8 at High Command, 5 were Rebels and 3 were Imperials. 

You cant just point at one competition to talk about balance, you have to look at the whole. Rebels and Imperials have traded the top spot all throughout the first year of legion, and it continues to stay that way as we enter year two. The game is very well balanced, and both sides have awesome new units to look forward to! 

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1 hour ago, TalkPolite said:

The winner is highlighted in green, so it’s 12-4 Imperials. 

Thats just one league though bud, and I, as the person that runs it will be the first to admit that more Rebels would have made it into the single elims if we would have made better tables with less fire lanes in the round robin. With Bossk and DTs running around, it’s no wonder so many made it in.

Ill also take this time to mention a couple other tournament facts: 

-The top 12 at LVO were evenly split. 

-The last two Invader leagues were both won by rebels, even though more players have joined as Imperials (60/40 split). 

-Out of the top 8 at High Command, 5 were Rebels and 3 were Imperials. 

You cant just point at one competition to talk about balance, you have to look at the whole. Rebels and Imperials have traded the top spot all throughout the first year of legion, and it continues to stay that way as we enter year two. The game is very well balanced, and both sides have awesome new units to look forward to! 

Please understand, I am in no way blaming you or the other organizers of IL in any way. I think you guys run a great and fun tournament!

But as far as numbers go, we’ll see how other tournaments are when Bossk and Sabine finally hit the shelves and we’ll see how the IL finishes.

Also as I mentioned in my first post, it’s not just one big thing that gives Imperials an advantage. It’s an accumulation of many small tiny advantages that culminate into a bigger advantage. Tournaments like LVO didn’t have the current advantages that Imperials now enjoy (Bossk & the Occupier not to mention the Deathtroopers). Invader League has the distinction of being able to play with almost every new unit before they even hit the shelves and I’m pretty sure it’s just an indication of things to come irl.

But will you (that’s plural - not just you 😁) continue to excuse these types of results when they show the same poor showing for Rebels in other future tournaments?

Also don’t get me wrong, I love Legion and I think it’s a great game, but it currently has problems and if FF goes the X-Wing 1.0 way of fixing things, that problem will only get waaaaay worse. The X-Wing 1.0 way of fixing things is to come out with a more powerful unit on the opposite side to equal things out and that just unbalanced things further, because then you need to play that specific unit in order to have balance. As it is the Imperials need to play specific units to have their advantages, but the unfortunate thing is that one of those units happens to be a corps unit (Stormtrooper DLTs).

Time will tell if I’m just a crackpot, or a real forward thinker.🤪😳😁

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18 minutes ago, JediPartisan said:

Time will tell if I’m just a crackpot, or a real forward thinker.🤪😳😁

Imma hold you to that. 

And trust me, I didn’t take it personally. I just want to make sure people understand why we got to the disparity - we (the organizers) learned some lessons this season we tried to apply to the elimination phase. 

As I said before, I’m excited to see how things change as the factions get more units. Sabine and Taun Tauns are going to change Rebels significantly I feel. 

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6 hours ago, JediPartisan said:

But will you (that’s plural - not just you 😁) continue to excuse these types of results when they show the same poor showing for Rebels in other future tournaments?

What results?  What poor showing?  There are fewer Rebel players, yes, granted, and yet they consistently even out at the top tables. The overabundance of Imperial players probably has as much to do with their ease of play and "wow factor" than anything else.  I'd be more alarmed by the stats if they showed Rebels being more numerous but not taking the top spots than I am in what we have now.  If anything, the stats show that Rebels can win tournaments with skilled players, which is exactly what we would want them to be.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Alpha17 said:

What results?  What poor showing?  There are fewer Rebel players, yes, granted, and yet they consistently even out at the top tables. The overabundance of Imperial players probably has as much to do with their ease of play and "wow factor" than anything else.  I'd be more alarmed by the stats if they showed Rebels being more numerous but not taking the top spots than I am in what we have now.  If anything, the stats show that Rebels can win tournaments with skilled players, which is exactly what we would want them to be.

 

Yeah, so we had an RPQ yesterday, not the biggest by a long shot (19 players), with an Imperial heavy split (7 Rebs, 12 Imps).  Going into round 3, the undefeated were 4 Rebels and 1 Imp, with the final standings having an even split in the top 4 and a slight imperial lean in top 8 (3-5).  In that regard, I'm kind of with you because this has been at consistent theme at our events, heavier imperial showings, but the top end usually even out somewhat.  Rebels show up less, but that's no different than Armada where angry space triangles were more common even when Rebels were throwing up the most wins at top tables.

Edited by MasterShake2

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I believe they two sides are balanced overall. good players may choose Rebels as they are harder to play (see above) and good players can take advantage of less experienced players. Some tournaments may see more Imperial as they are easier to play and more forgiving (again see above). I don't see a single really good list that everyone is taking, again pointing to a good balance overall.   I play Imperial as they are more my style. I don't put a lot of stock that something is grossly over or under costed. 

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Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, Bohemian73 said:

I believe they two sides are balanced overall. good players may choose Rebels as they are harder to play (see above) and good players can take advantage of less experienced players. Some tournaments may see more Imperial as they are easier to play and more forgiving (again see above). I don't see a single really good list that everyone is taking, again pointing to a good balance overall.   I play Imperial as they are more my style. I don't put a lot of stock that something is grossly over or under costed. 

Just to point out, when one side is more challenging than another, that’s an unbalanced game.

In any game, all sides should have an equal chance of winning.

You do realize you’re helping me make my argument? Everyone that argues the point seems to see the issue anyway, if only on a subconscious level.

Edited by JediPartisan

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11 hours ago, JediPartisan said:

Just to point out, when one side is more challenging than another, that’s an unbalanced game.

In any game, all sides should have an equal chance of winning.

You do realize you’re helping me make my argument? Everyone that argues the point seems to see the issue anyway, if only on a subconscious level.

No, it's not.  The chances of winning are certainly equal, and always come down to the players and their individual lists and not to their chosen faction.  A faction that is extremely capable but not forgiving of mistakes is balanced with a more forgiving faction that lacks the flair of the other.  Arguing otherwise is the same as arguing that because one faction fits certain play styles than the other faction, the game is unbalanced.  If that's your idea of balance, then you're wanting a very bland game that doesn't allow for any variation.

And no one is helping you make your argument.  We've shown data from organized play, raw stats, and our own experiences; they all refute what you claim.  Your counter is just to ignore what has been said, and repeat that you're right.

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5 minutes ago, Alpha17 said:

We've shown data from organized play, raw stats, and our own experiences; they all refute what you claim.  Your counter is just to ignore what has been said, and repeat that you're right.

Incorrect, data has not been collected for the new units yet except by Invader League and despite excuses being made, it supports my argument so far.

Also the chances of winning are definitely not equal if one side has more opportunities if gaining victory tokens, but I see arguing with you is pointless.

There are many who see what I’m saying and we will see what future tournaments hold, but will you be willing to accept the results?

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