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JediPartisan

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, crx3800 said:

In this game, there can be victory in defense. Get an objective. Either run with it (if you can) or hunker down near it (if you have to stay near) and enjoy ignoring your first three hits (heavy cover and a dodge). 

 

Yes, this requires you to live long enough to claim the objective first, but I haven't seen that be much of an issue. 

In due time your opponent will move around your cover and/or you'll need to use actions to not-dodge. It's not horribly imbalanced, but it's a slant towards imperials. I personally don't think Legion's imbalanced as wargames go. But heck not even chess is perfectly balanced, what do people expect?

1 hour ago, Thalandar said:

Enlighten me, what is the 40k way of building a table?

It has varied over the years and will vary group to group. I don't know what Raven KS would say it is. The old general wisdom for 40k for us was, use at least one of every kind of scenery you own (cover, blocking, rough terrain, visually clear but impassable, etc.) and take turns placing 1 piece per sq foot or so. Keep taller buildings and hills near the center of the table to avoid horrible imbalances. If in doubt err on the side of more terrain. Everyone has to place at least one piece, then when someone says they think there's enough terrain, their opponent can place 2 more pieces in a row and then that's that. You do this before you know who deploys where, or what the mission is.

The other even older 40k way was, one player sets up the whole table, alone. The other player gets first pick of the deployment zones.

So a few big buildings, a few hills, a pond, an area of rubble, and about 20 fences, stacks of crates, or small ruins, that would about do you for 40k. They used to say to cover half or more the table in scenery.

Edited by TauntaunScout

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3 hours ago, crx3800 said:

It's more about the capability to put more of those rebels in an effective list than you can those imperials. You can run Luke and Han pretty easily together. It's a different thing to put Vader and Palp together. 

Not saying it's impossible, but it's not cost efficient. 

I mean, I've seen some sweet stuff done with Veers and boba...  but that's beside the point lol

I guess I just don't see the benefit. Sure, you'll get an extra 1 or 2 hits through a round, but compared to the dismal white defense dice, I'd still think the Imps have the advantage. The rebels are cheaper, but not so much so that they gain much, if any, of an activation advantage (provided the list isn't just activation spam with everything running barebones), and even when they do it's generally nullified heavily early game. Whole squads of rebel troops wiped out in 1 or 2 shots. 

I'm sure my perspective isn't 100% right. There are players that do well with rebels after all, but the more I see them played the more I think that's a reflection of the player more than the units themselves. 

I suppose a break outside my meta might be needed. The rebel players here get thrashed regularly, not because of bad choices but the dice rarely roll in their favor.

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46 minutes ago, TauntaunScout said:

If I were you, based on your past posts, I'd paint 2 core set of rebels and then add only whatever rebels you simply must own from a modelling perspective. That's the most economical option. It gives you a loaner army, and four Z-6's will be able to hold their own in friendly games more or less indefinitely.

Appreciate this. I’m going to take it to heart. I’ll need to pick up one more corps unit as I in effect have that setup already sans the 4th trooper. I’ll probably add Wookies and Tauntauns for the models and call the faction good (and paint my tauntaun unit up like the KOTOR desert or woodland variant).

35 minutes ago, TauntaunScout said:

In due time your opponent will move around your cover and/or you'll need to use actions to not-dodge. It's not horribly imbalanced, but it's a slant towards imperials.

The other even older 40k way was, one player sets up the whole table, alone. The other player gets first pick of the deployment zones.

I found when I tried Rebels this month I frequently was suppressed before I got the luxury of two actions, so I couldn’t dodge + thing. I agree with your assessment regarding Rebels versus imperials.

As far as terrain building goes, at the home board I’ve largely done the “I built it, now let’s divvy up who goes where”. I still used points for blue player/red player requirements, but largely I try to build pretty symmetric boards in the sense that you wouldn’t natively gain a huge advantage from one side versus another. Especially when you don’t know which deployment is coming out of the deck.

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1 minute ago, ScummyRebel said:

Appreciate this. I’m going to take it to heart. I’ll need to pick up one more corps unit as I in effect have that setup already sans the 4th trooper. I’ll probably add Wookies and Tauntauns for the models and call the faction good (and paint my tauntaun unit up like the KOTOR desert or woodland variant).

 

So you have a core set plus an AT-RT and Rebel Trooper squad expansion? This is most irregular! If that is the case why not get a different corps unit instead of a 4th Trooper unit? Plus if you proxy all ion guns as blasters, you can poach a whole new minimum sized trooper squad without spending any money!

If so then yeah I'd just add whatever you think looks cool. You'll surpass 800 points before you know it.

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4 hours ago, Darth Sanguis said:

I guess I'm a little confused by this. Are the rebels getting more than the imperials?

Nope, but their getting more out of it, since Pierce is more (cost) effective against units with better defense dice aka imperial units. I thought I made this clear in my statement...

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Posted (edited)
41 minutes ago, Staelwulf said:

I thought I made this clear in my statement..

I mean, you said, "Tbh all your imperial red defense dice mean nothing if you're fighting an inflation of Pierce weapons " Which is why I was curious about the statement. If the rebels aren't necessarily getting more pierce than the imps I (personally) wouldn't say an inflation. Though I can see what you mean now that it's been discussed. 
 

41 minutes ago, Staelwulf said:

Nope, but their getting more out of it, since Pierce is more (cost) effective against units with better defense dice aka imperial units

I want to agree with this, but isn't the effectiveness circumstantial?

If, as a rebel player, you're not rolling any blocks, then yes, the enemy pierce would be pretty useless. However, if as a rebel player you were rolling only 1 or 2 blocks (which is about on par with what I've seen), doesn't this make the imperial pierce that much more effective? If pierce allows an attack to decimate it's target in a single blow, (which with Vader and ole papa palpatine it's certainly possible),  wouldn't that make it more effective for the imperials? Eliminating not only damage threat but an activation as well isn't to be ignored. It may be cheaper with the rebels but wouldn't it do more for the imperials (presuming they're targeting rebels. This whole discussion implies Rebs vs Imps, but it's quite common to have same faction matches.)

You're probably right, but that's my train of thought on it.

Edited by Darth Sanguis

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2 hours ago, ScummyRebel said:

When I can generate 6-7 hits with an imperial unit that’s not so bad... 

You are clearly rolling more hits than I ever can with my units apparently. 

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14 minutes ago, crx3800 said:

You are clearly rolling more hits than I ever can with my units apparently. 

My all-snow troopers army can do that. When they aren’t suppressed they use that free Attack action to aim-move-shoot. If they’re in flamethrower range especially... But even if not the free aim helps a ton. 

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, ScummyRebel said:

This right here makes me question how much effort I want to put into building a Rebel force and just go for empire and republic, with a dash of Rebels for thematic game days instead of just gaming.

Course my advice has to be taken with the caveat that I ONLY make my armies for thematic games...

You should also eventually add any other thing with command cards, that you think is too cool for school. Best $15 you can add to a new army is having spare command cards and about 100 more points.

 Weren’t you also hot for the landspeeder kit?

 

 

Edited by TauntaunScout

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7 minutes ago, TauntaunScout said:

My all-snow troopers army can do that. When they aren’t suppressed they use that free Attack action to aim-move-shoot. If they’re in flamethrower range especially... But even if not the free aim helps a ton. 

A friend of mine uses this but adds frags to his snowtroopers... With the surge to crit the attack pools get gruesome. Even my imperial units have a difficult time surviving an attack. 

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1 hour ago, crx3800 said:

You are clearly rolling more hits than I ever can with my units apparently. 

Snowtroopers. Especially ones with flamethrower, grenade of choice (I like impact in case I’m stuck with armor), and an aim token.

Although my scout troopers as a full unit (not strike team) roll a ton of hits too.

46 minutes ago, TauntaunScout said:

Course my advice has to be taken with the caveat that I ONLY make my armies for thematic games...

You should also eventually add any other thing with command cards, that you think is too cool for school. Best $15 you can add to a new army is having spare command cards and about 100 more points.

 Weren’t you also hot for the landspeeder kit?

I may go back and look at command card options like Han and Chewie. I don’t have a lot of interest in Jyn.

Landspeeder is a bit of a who knows? Really like the model but boy that’s pricey for what amounts to a backup faction. Maybe if I can score it cheap? It does look really cool though.

My ultimate vision for Rebels is either: 1) bringing all the minis for the game, or 2) playing a friendly thematic game at someone’s geek den/war room/whatever you want to call it, they want to try empire, and I’m going for a thematic casual game. Although in scenario 2 I wouldn’t rule out a prequel vs GCW faction necessarily... depends on the day and how thematic is thematic.

For games with strangers at LGS? I don’t care as much about theme. Mirror matches are no big deal there, and still playing with Star Wars toys.  When it’s just friends having fun, the theme is kinda nice to have.

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49 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

A friend of mine uses this but adds frags to his snowtroopers... With the surge to crit the attack pools get gruesome. Even my imperial units have a difficult time surviving an attack. 

That's the best combo for the snow troopers, trow a recon intel on them too, and woo doggie!  

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1 hour ago, Darth Sanguis said:

A friend of mine uses this but adds frags to his snowtroopers... With the surge to crit the attack pools get gruesome. Even my imperial units have a difficult time surviving an attack. 

I don't think I own any of those cards so I use impact grenades. As long as you get that black die instead of white...

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Just now, TauntaunScout said:

I don't think I own any of those cards so I use impact grenades. As long as you get that black die instead of white...

Yeah, that's a bit better, but with reds it gets gross...
dicechart.png?w=736
latest?cb=20181218205410

Everything but the flamethrower in a full unit throwing this... 5 reds and up to 6 black... with blast and surge to crit?

thumb_yaranaika-me-recuerda-a-la-haya-~f
 

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41 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Yeah, that's a bit better, but with reds it gets gross...
dicechart.png?w=736
latest?cb=20181218205410

Everything but the flamethrower in a full unit throwing this... 5 reds and up to 6 black... with blast and surge to crit?

thumb_yaranaika-me-recuerda-a-la-haya-~f
 

All that death and destruction for the empire 

download.jpg

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1 hour ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Yeah, that's a bit better, but with reds it gets gross...
dicechart.png?w=736
latest?cb=20181218205410

Everything but the flamethrower in a full unit throwing this... 5 reds and up to 6 black... with blast and surge to crit?

thumb_yaranaika-me-recuerda-a-la-haya-~f
 

IF you're attacking a trooper unit with Blast, the surge to crit doesn't really do much for you. It's nice to have if they have to go into armor, though.

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On 5/15/2019 at 11:25 AM, TalkPolite said:

Davis is playing Rebels, so we’re all doomed anyway

Totally.

 

I’ll weigh in on this discussion briefly.

Having now played both factions competitively (though I’ll admit to still being an Empire newb), I’ve developed the follow opinions:

-The factions are balanced, in that properly built Rebel lists on proper tables will have an equal chance against Empire lists.

-Rebels are less forgiving of mistakes but have a higher skill cap.

-Rebels are far more dependent on good terrain.

-The variety of competitively viable Rebel lists is much smaller than that if Empire.  Luke, Z6s and sniper strike teams are still a winning formula, but Empire has a much larger roster of competitive builds and units.

-The Z6 is better than the DLT.

-Krennic, Deathtroopers, and Bossk change the competitive landscape more than any unit since sniper strike teams.

As Davis would say, that’s just, like, my opinion man.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/15/2019 at 4:33 AM, RaevenKS said:

Did you take the 1/4 covers on the table, and not with a 40k "way of building table" in your assumption ?

No because IMO, a lot of the "tournaments table" are completely unbalance and indeed favorise the Empire.

This was true early on, not at all true at Adepticon or Las Vegas Open.  which are 2 most recent large tournaments. So imo the competitive scene has been fixed in terms of terrain.

They are numerous break downs of competitive play rebs vs Imps and it is statistically insignificant.  Any arguments otherwise are obsolete imo until we start to see 60% one side and only 40% of the other going into the finals at competitive tournaments.  

Edited by weebaer

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3 minutes ago, TauntaunScout said:

Frag grenades seem like power creep.

With the sole exception against armored units, I agree.

impact grenades are still better for armor (especially if you already have surge -> hit)

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I guess it is time for me to focus on building rebels then. Just by math (very little gameplay under my belt) I think Orkimedes nailed it. But a few points do stand out.

The range 2 on the scout pistols is not a disadvantage, but the range of the DLT is an advantage? If stormtroopers can keep rebel troops at range 4, then commandos can keep scouts at range 3. Additionally the commandos have a defense surge and better scout. I love me some scouts, but the range 2 is not fun when working with snipers.

The Rebel Troops with a white dice and defense surge is a little better resisting white attack dice than a storm troopers with red dice and no surge resisting black attack dice.  Again, it is not a huge advantage but it does add up. The DLT is amazing, and proliferating the battle field, but I think the edge is narrower than the credit given. Because aggression usually wins the margin is important but the rebels aren't out in the cold.

The AT-ST is impressive, but you can get two loaded AT-RTs for the cost of a naked AT-ST. 

I do think Snow Troopers and Death Troopers are awesome compared to their counterparts, and the snowspeeder is... sub-optimal, but I don't think the gap is huge. 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, allistorpreist said:

I guess it is time for me to focus on building rebels then.

 

Yes it is. Legion minis are so cheap to buy and easy to paint that it is illogical to have fewer than 4 Legion armies. Mine are:

  • Hoth Imperials
  • Everywhere else Imperials
  • Hoth Rebels
  • Everywhere else Rebels

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2 minutes ago, TauntaunScout said:

Yes it is. Legion minis are so cheap to buy and easy to paint that it is illogical to have fewer than 4 Legion armies. Mine are:

  • Hoth Imperials
  • Everywhere else Imperials
  • Hoth Rebels
  • Everywhere else Rebels

Rebels were the long term plan, I just like painting imperial troops.  Armor looks cool and I wanted to wait for Sabine to play rebels. The Rebels show was one I wanted to hate so bad, but ended up loving. Even plan to swap luke, leah and astromech models for Hyra, Kanus and the greatest rebel ever, Chopper.

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38 minutes ago, ScummyRebel said:

With the sole exception against armored units, I agree.

impact grenades are still better for armor (especially if you already have surge -> hit)

And concussion grenades are better against enemies in cover 2 (even with 5 troopers)

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5 minutes ago, Derrault said:

And concussion grenades are better against enemies in cover 2 (even with 5 troopers)

Situationally different special effects. Better die. Same range. Same cost. Unless you know what they are shooting at, one is better for the same price. 

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