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EliasWindrider

Lightsaber Form Fightclub: niman-disciple vs. Soresu defender

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Parry, 3 Strain, take 1 Wound

Maneuver to engaged (2 Strain)

action: Lightsaber: 1eP+5eA+2eD+3eS 2 successes, 1 advantage, 1 Triumph
p-tr.pnga-s-a.pnga-s-s.pnga-a.pnga-a-a.pnga--.pngd-th.pngd-f.pngs-th.pngs-th.pngs-f.png

8 damage

1 Advantage to recover 1 strain

Triumph: Upgrade Leonard’s next check

ST: 12/14

WT: 11/14

The dice have been strong with me. 

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6 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

 

If memory serves, lightsabers are immune to Sunder by RAW.

@Jedi Ronin

I was expecting each of us to roll the crits we receive but this way works to.

Crit on Pan: 1d100 43 Bowled over: The target is knocked Prone and suffers 1 strain.

Not immune they require multiple triumphs to sunder. I think 2

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On 5/13/2019 at 10:02 PM, EliasWindrider said:

Ok... this thread is largely a response to @Tramp Graphics insistence that niman disciple  is the worst form, and it's horribly deficient and relies on a force powers as telekinetic crutch to barely cover it's fatal flaws.  He held out soresu defender as the best form.  So I challenged him to a best of 10 duels.  He chickened  out but @Jedi Ronin agreed to be my sparring partner.

The rules RAW starting characters + 10 xp for morality, then add all the talents from the lightsaber  form spec, no force powers.  The only gear are concealing robes and a basic lightsaber  unmodified.  Duels start at short range, with sabers drawn and ignited.  Each side gets to choose which skill (cool or vigilance) to use for initiative. The destiny pool starts with one white and one black destiny point, one side spends white the otherside spends black. To handicap niman, I won't be using draw closer which means the 3 strongest talents in the niman tree (force assault, draw closer, and force rating) won't contribute, also I'll be using the very generic human species while @Jedi Ronin got to choose a species beneficial to his build (Pantoran  which is widely  considered more powerful than other species).

So in this corner we have

Leonard NiMaan, weighing in with 2's in all attributes except Willpower, in which he started with a 6 and used dedication to raise to a 6. He has 2 ranks in discipline, 1 rank in negotiation, knowledge(lore), lightsaber, vigilance, and coercion.  He has 14 wounds, 16 strain, 3 soak, and melee defense 2 (from 2 ranks in defensive  training).

He starts with a subpar initiative check of 

Vigilance for initiative match 1: 1eP+5eA 3 successes, 3 advantage
p-s-s.pnga-a-a.pnga--.pnga--.pnga-a.pnga-s.png

 

3 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

With sum djem it lands where I want which means I can pick it up with a maneuver and is an instant win,  the other way it falls at the owner's feat and is not an instant win, but him costing me a maneuver generally doesn't hurt me and I can cost him a maneuver by disengaging which means if he wants to attack me he either can't use defensive stance or has to take 4 strain.  Yes my plan with that strategy is to highlight strain and action economy advantage of niman-disciple  over soresu defender in case @Tramp Graphics reads this, which is the real purpose of me monologuing like a villain revealing his evil master plan.  Without spending the strain he can't trigger improved parry, which can't be parried.

Say what you will about @Tramp Graphics, and for the record, I think his reasoning based on (non-canon) lore is ridiculous. However, I don't begrudge him the fact that he didn't want to take part in this competition (despite your clear baiting, which (in my opinion) is unnecessary and immature), because it's very obvious that he can't compete, for a simple reason: While you embrace the mechanics and power-gaming, Tramp seems to weigh in very heavily (look ma! Bold! In the best tradition of Tramp) on the Lore and role-playing. I don't think he could bring himself to create a 1 dimensional lightsaber murderbot with a name.

Also, while you like to profess how you're handicapping yourself, @Jedi Ronin's choice of Pantoran is at best marginal. I doubt his extra point in presence (at the cost of willpower) is going to help him much in a duel. Certainly the extra rank in cool won't offset your 1p5a in Vigilance. I wonder if a Drall would have been a better choice, with 30-50 xp (depending if he wanted to bump his brawn for the soak) spent on the Lightsaber skill. (I'll admit, I kinda want to see a Space Hamster dueling it out)

That being said. I see it's round 2 of 10. Dare I ask if either of you is actually going to present a character instead of a murderbot in any of those rounds? Because both of your "characters" would have been nixed about 30 seconds into a session 0 at my table...

 

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2 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

I thought you were just repeating what I had said previously 😁.  But yeah disengaging is the easy way to take advantage of it.  Btw you been rolling amazingly against tougher dice pools than me and I've been rolling craptastically or at best mediocrely

I’m sure you mentioned it first. 

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6 minutes ago, oneeyedmatt87 said:

 

Say what you will about @Tramp Graphics, and for the record, I think his reasoning based on (non-canon) lore is ridiculous. However, I don't begrudge him the fact that he didn't want to take part in this competition (despite your clear baiting, which (in my opinion) is unnecessary and immature), because it's very obvious that he can't compete, for a simple reason: While you embrace the mechanics and power-gaming, Tramp seems to weigh in very heavily (look ma! Bold! In the best tradition of Tramp) on the Lore and role-playing. I don't think he could bring himself to create a 1 dimensional lightsaber murderbot with a name.

Also, while you like to profess how you're handicapping yourself, @Jedi Ronin's choice of Pantoran is at best marginal. I doubt his extra point in presence (at the cost of willpower) is going to help him much in a duel. Certainly the extra rank in cool won't offset your 1p5a in Vigilance. I wonder if a Drall would have been a better choice, with 30-50 xp (depending if he wanted to bump his brawn for the soak) spent on the Lightsaber skill. (I'll admit, I kinda want to see a Space Hamster dueling it out)

That being said. I see it's round 2 of 10. Dare I ask if either of you is actually going to present a character instead of a murderbot in any of those rounds? Because both of your "characters" would have been nixed about 30 seconds into a session 0 at my table...

 

I wouldn’t create a character like this for a game. And I don’t see myself doing this 10 times. People are welcome to take up the saber and join the ring instead of me. There has certainly been constructive criticism of my build as not being optimized. I made my trade offs for various reasons (and my gambit at better initiative paid off in round 1), others are free to step up and do differently. 

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2 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

I wouldn’t create a character like this for a game. And I don’t see myself doing this 10 times. People are welcome to take up the saber and join the ring instead of me. There has certainly been constructive criticism of my build as not being optimized. I made my trade offs for various reasons (and my gambit at better initiative paid off in round 1), others are free to step up and do differently. 

I didn't mean to say that you would, and I hope no offense was taken. I was simply trying to point out the artificiality of the test and the way it can't really compare to an actual game (especially with Force synergy and team synergy in consideration). But hey, y'all are having fun. Have at it!

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Posted (edited)

3 Strain Parry, take 1 wound 

move to engaged (2 Strain)

action: Lightsaber: 1eP+5eA+2eD+2eS 2 successes, 5 advantage
p-a-a.pnga-a.pnga-s.pnga-s.pnga-s-a.pnga-a-a.pngd--.pngd--.pngs-f.pngs-th.png

8 damage 

3 Advantage gain Maneuver: activate Defensive Stance 2 (2 Strain)

2 Advantage recover 2 strain

ST: 5/14

WT: 1/14

Edited by Jedi Ronin

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4 minutes ago, oneeyedmatt87 said:

I didn't mean to say that you would, and I hope no offense was taken. I was simply trying to point out the artificiality of the test and the way it can't really compare to an actual game (especially with Force synergy and team synergy in consideration). But hey, y'all are having fun. Have at it!

No offense taken.

This exercise has heightened my appreciation for the system: despite how sparse this is in description and character development etc the combat (narrative dice) system still brings out a narrative of what’s happening. 

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, oneeyedmatt87 said:

I didn't mean to say that you would, and I hope no offense was taken. I was simply trying to point out the artificiality of the test and the way it can't really compare to an actual game (especially with Force synergy and team synergy in consideration). But hey, y'all are having fun. Have at it!

The artificial test was designed to reveal truthfulness/falsehoodnees of exactly the points that Tramp was claiming.  I've known Michael Trampert a long time but I don't know how to get him to not inject his frequently fringe interpretation of lore into a mechanics discussion, or how to get him to not insist that everyone who disagrees with his fringe interpretations are biased except to show him proof, which this contest was designed to provide.  For as long as I've known him (something like 15 years) he's been misinterpreting rpg rules, let alone trying to assess effectiveness of them.

Edited by EliasWindrider

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2 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

The artificial test was designed to reveal truthfulness/falsehoodnees of exactly the points that Tramp was claiming.  I've known Michael Trampert a long time but I don't know how to get him to not inject his frequently fringe interpretation of RAW into a mechanics discussion, or how to get him to not insist that everyone who disagrees with his fringe interpretations are biased except to show him proof, which this contest was designed to provide.

Would he want you using/revealing his full real name ?

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1 minute ago, Jedi Ronin said:

Would he want you using/revealing his full real name ?

I don't think that he would care.  Especially as he's a talented self employed graphic artist whose always looking for work.  And he's revealed that information on his deviantart page from which he hosts images that he posts on these boards.  So it's not like I'm saying anything he hasn't already revealed to the community.

https://www.deviantart.com/tramp-graphics

Btw my name is Keith Dalbey, so it's not like I'm hiding anything about me that I've said about him.

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6 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

The artificial test was designed to reveal truthfulness/falsehoodnees of exactly the points that Tramp was claiming.  I've known ********** a long time but I don't know how to get him to not inject his frequently fringe interpretation of lore into a mechanics discussion, or how to get him to not insist that everyone who disagrees with his fringe interpretations are biased except to show him proof, which this contest was designed to provide.  For as long as I've known him (something like 15 years) he's been misinterpreting rpg rules.

Sometimes you just have to accept people as they are. It's unfortunate that he's misinterpreting rules, and that he's so obstinate (a fact lost to no-one who's been reading these forums), but if he's not convinced by constant diverse opinions suggesting likewise, I doubt this competition will change his mind.

Also, fun fact: Disproving his "All Niman users died at Geonosis" is as easy as following the citations to the wiki he's referencing:  http://web.archive.org/web/20110424114906/http://www.starwars.com/games/videogames/news20080728.html?page=7 

It says (my emphasis) "almost all the Jedi at the Geonosis arena who favored Form VI were killed" Almost < All.

Not that I expect him to be convinced. I mean, he's basing his lore/opinion from an archived website. But hey. You never know.

Can't we just agree that all the forms are beautiful?

9 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

Btw my name is Keith ********** so it's not like I'm hiding anything about me that I've said about him.

Finally, my final identity theft plan is blooming. :P

Everything is proceeding as I have forseen...

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2 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Not immune they require multiple triumphs to sunder. I think 2

They are immune to the sunder quality but triumphs can be used to damage equipment...

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6 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

I don't think that he would care.  Especially as he's a talented self employed graphic artist whose always looking for work.  And he's revealed that information on his deviantart page from which he hosts images that he posts on these boards.  So it's not like I'm saying anything he hasn't already revealed to the community.

https://www.deviantart.com/tramp-graphics

Btw my name is Keith Dalbey, so it's not like I'm hiding anything about me that I've said about him.

I was just making sure. And now his user name makes perfect sense. 

Edited by Jedi Ronin

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