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EliasWindrider

Lightsaber Form Fightclub: niman-disciple vs. Soresu defender

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Posted (edited)

Ok... this thread is largely a response to @Tramp Graphics insistence that niman disciple  is the worst form, and it's horribly deficient and relies on a force powers as telekinetic crutch to barely cover it's fatal flaws.  He held out soresu defender as the best form.  So I challenged him to a best of 10 duels.  He chickened  out but @Jedi Ronin agreed to be my sparring partner.

The rules RAW starting characters + 10 xp for morality, then add all the talents from the lightsaber  form spec, no force powers.  The only gear are concealing robes and a basic lightsaber  unmodified.  Duels start at short range, with sabers drawn and ignited.  Each side gets to choose which skill (cool or vigilance) to use for initiative. The destiny pool starts with one white and one black destiny point, one side spends white the otherside spends black. To handicap niman, I won't be using draw closer which means the 3 strongest talents in the niman tree (force assault, draw closer, and force rating) won't contribute, also I'll be using the very generic human species while @Jedi Ronin got to choose a species beneficial to his build (Pantoran  which is widely  considered more powerful than other species).

So in this corner we have

Leonard NiMaan, weighing in with 2's in all attributes except Willpower, in which he started with a 6 and used dedication to raise to a 6. He has 2 ranks in discipline, 1 rank in negotiation, knowledge(lore), lightsaber, vigilance, and coercion.  He has 14 wounds, 16 strain, 3 soak, and melee defense 2 (from 2 ranks in defensive  training).

He starts with a subpar initiative check of 

Vigilance for initiative match 1: 1eP+5eA 3 successes, 3 advantage
p-s-s.pnga-a-a.pnga--.pnga--.pnga-a.pnga-s.png

Edited by EliasWindrider

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

igilance for initiative match 1: 1eP+5eA 3 successes, 3 advantage

Pan

Pantoran Soresu Defender

Intellect 6

Presence 3

Will 1

WT: 14

ST: 14

Cool 2, Vigilance 2, Discipline 1, Lightsaber 1

 

Initiative2eA+1eP 5 successes, 1 Triumph
a-s-s.pnga-s-s.pngp-tr.png

I’ll spend the Triumph to take a free Maneuver and activate Defensive Stance 2, taking 2 Strain. 

Pan raises his blue lightsaber in both hands  and takes the classic Soresu defensive stance, letting the Force flow through him. 

He rushes to engage Leonard, bringing his blue lightsaber up and swinging down (Maneuver to move from Short to Engage, Action: Lightsaber attack)

Lightsaber attack: 1eP+5eA+2eD+2eS 3 successes, 3 advantage
p-s-a.pnga-a-a.pnga-s-s.pnga-s-a.pnga-a.pnga--.pngd-th.pngd-f.pngs--.pngs-th.png

9 Damage (before Parry)

3 Advantage: +1 Melee Defense until end of Pan's next turn.

Current defenses: Melee Defense 1 (Setback to attack), Defensive Stance 2 (Upgrade twice to attack)

Wounds: 0 Strain: 2

 

Edited by Jedi Ronin

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Posted (edited)

Leonard uses parry taking 3 strain and 4 wounds.

Lightsaber: 1eP+5eA+2eC+1eS 2 successes, 2 advantage, 1 Triumph
p-tr.pnga-a.pnga-s-a.pnga-a.pnga-s.pnga-s-a.pngc-f-th.pngc-th.pngs-f.png

He deals 8 damage.

Technically Leonard could use the triumph or 2 advantage to disarm Pan,  but that requires GM approval and I'm trying to prove a point by handicapping niman.  So he'll spend the triumph to crit, the advantage to recover 2 strain, and his maneuver to disengage.

Currently at 4/14 wounds and  1/16 strain (counting up from zero)

Edited by EliasWindrider

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Just putting it out there that one of the big strengths of Soresu, IMO, is that they can take every Talent in their tree without delving into Soresu Technique or either of it's dependent Talents (which are both kind of group-oriented and so not that beneficial in a 1-on-1). So just putting it out there that Pan here maybe isn't the optimal Soresu build for such a contest as this, which would have been a Brawn build, I think.

If going with the Technique-stat focus is a requirement of the conceptualization of this contest, that's fine, but... just sayin'...

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23 minutes ago, emsquared said:

Just putting it out there that one of the big strengths of Soresu, IMO, is that they can take every Talent in their tree without delving into Soresu Technique or either of it's dependent Talents (which are both kind of group-oriented and so not that beneficial in a 1-on-1). So just putting it out there that Pan here maybe isn't the optimal Soresu build for such a contest as this, which would have been a Brawn build, I think.

If going with the Technique-stat focus is a requirement of the conceptualization of this contest, that's fine, but... just sayin'...

That wasn't a requirement per se and you raise a good point but I think it is probably best against the style vs style comparison.  I didn't even consider not going with a focus on Intellect.  I agree that Soresu's schtick involves protecting others and 2 of it's premier Talents do just that and they are the only ones requiring a Lightsaber(Intellect) check and they are utterly useless in this sort of duel.  I think this is why Elias would have preferred that @TrampGraphics do this instead of me because of things like this.  If I dropped those core parts of Soresu (Intellect based, 2 premier talents) then am I really running a "Soresu Defender"?  It's certainly a LOT less representative of how Soresu Defenders are built.  And if I did run it that way and could consistently win then it's a "Soresu Defender who totally focused on Brawn" is better than Niman which avoids the point of this. 

Mostly I think this is fun and interesting.  Realistically I don't think this is going to convince Tramp of anything.  If he doesn't totally ignore it (and dismiss it when brought up) he'll find ways to invalidate it as meaningful example or test in his mind.

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a couple things I want to make a quick note of. while using 3 advantages to gain 1 defense is normally pretty solid in a 1v1 scenario it is actually a waste of 1 advantage. Because 2 advantages can give your opponent a set back dice on their next check and then you can use the 1 left over to recover a strain. In addition to this I want to note that technically the niman user is not the only one that could have ended the fight with a disarm on the first attack as all lightsaber have the sunder quality which means that the soresu user could have used the 3 advantages to sunder the opponents saber hilt effectively disarming or close to disarming the niman user. Also I could be wrong but isn't there a defensive stance maneuver that can be taken by all characters that adds a black dice to all attacks coming from and to that the person using that maneuver. Part of the reason I ask is I always thought the defensive stance talent worked a lot like True Aim where it stacked onto the already existing maneuver..... anyway just a few points I thought I would bring up in the process.

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22 minutes ago, tunewalker said:

a couple things I want to make a quick note of. while using 3 advantages to gain 1 defense is normally pretty solid in a 1v1 scenario it is actually a waste of 1 advantage. Because 2 advantages can give your opponent a set back dice on their next check and then you can use the 1 left over to recover a strain. In addition to this I want to note that technically the niman user is not the only one that could have ended the fight with a disarm on the first attack as all lightsaber have the sunder quality which means that the soresu user could have used the 3 advantages to sunder the opponents saber hilt effectively disarming or close to disarming the niman user. Also I could be wrong but isn't there a defensive stance maneuver that can be taken by all characters that adds a black dice to all attacks coming from and to that the person using that maneuver. Part of the reason I ask is I always thought the defensive stance talent worked a lot like True Aim where it stacked onto the already existing maneuver..... anyway just a few points I thought I would bring up in the process.

That would have been a bit better use of 3 Advantage.  There is a Guarded Stance Manuever that gives the performing character a setback on any combat checks but also grants melee defense +1 until the end of the next turn.  I don't think the rules allow sundering a hilt and I wouldn't allow it as a GM - that seems like a very cheesy way of sidestepping the no Sunder rule on lightsabers.

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23 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

That would have been a bit better use of 3 Advantage.  There is a Guarded Stance Manuever that gives the performing character a setback on any combat checks but also grants melee defense +1 until the end of the next turn.  I don't think the rules allow sundering a hilt and I wouldn't allow it as a GM - that seems like a very cheesy way of sidestepping the no Sunder rule on lightsabers.

thank you for addressing all my notes and concerns.

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Posted (edited)

 

1 hour ago, tunewalker said:

a couple things I want to make a quick note of. while using 3 advantages to gain 1 defense is normally pretty solid in a 1v1 scenario it is actually a waste of 1 advantage. Because 2 advantages can give your opponent a set back dice on their next check and then you can use the 1 left over to recover a strain. In addition to this I want to note that technically the niman user is not the only one that could have ended the fight with a disarm on the first attack as all lightsaber have the sunder quality which means that the soresu user could have used the 3 advantages to sunder the opponents saber hilt effectively disarming or close to disarming the niman user. Also I could be wrong but isn't there a defensive stance maneuver that can be taken by all characters that adds a black dice to all attacks coming from and to that the person using that maneuver. Part of the reason I ask is I always thought the defensive stance talent worked a lot like True Aim where it stacked onto the already existing maneuver..... anyway just a few points I thought I would bring up in the process.

If memory serves, lightsabers are immune to Sunder by RAW.

@Jedi Ronin

I was expecting each of us to roll the crits we receive but this way works to.

Crit on Pan: 1d100 43 Bowled over: The target is knocked Prone and suffers 1 strain.

Edited by EliasWindrider

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In my opinion the primary reason to take soresu defender is for soresu technique so that you could use intellect.  Knight does a much better job of protecting allies thanks to circle of shelter and guardian of the republic, it also provides improved parry, improved reflect, force rating and dedication (among other goodness).

BTW consular: niman-disciple/knight/padawan-survivor is a pretty awesome 3 spec combo. It does soresu better than soresu defender in most situations including crafting a tricked out lightsaber.   I consider supreme parry a detriment in almost all cases.

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

@tunewalker. Btw strain recovery is explicitly 2 advantage for 2 strain,  the game developers purposely disallowed 1 strain for 1 advantage 

This is demonstrably incorrect by accordance to the combat tables on page 212 of the force and destiny core rule book which states right next to 1 advantage (recover 1 strain) Add boost to next allies check. notice something improtant about the conflict area...... The other stuff next to it are listed as "advantage varies" but right there on page 212 it is 1 advantage for 1 strain. The 2 advantage table does not mention strain at all but because you can spend each of your advantages as you wish you can do 1 for 1, 2 for 2 or even 3 for 3...

Edited by tunewalker

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Posted (edited)

Parry, 3 Strain, took 2 damage. 

Maneuver: get up 

Maneuver: engage (2 Strain)

Action: Lightsaber: 1eP+5eA+2eS+2eD 4 successes, 3 advantage
p-s-a.pnga-s-s.pnga-s.pnga-a-a.pnga-s-s.pnga--.pngs-f.pngs--.pngd-f.pngd--.png

10 Damage 

2 Advantage to Crit

Crit: 1d100 45

Bowled over (ha!): knocked prone, suffers 1 Strain 

1 Advantage to recover 1 Strain 

strain: 7/14

wounds: 2/14

Edited by Jedi Ronin

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Posted (edited)

Parry took 3 strain and 5 damage

Maneuver to stand

Action to attack

Lightsaber: 1eP+5eA+2eD 2 successes, 3 advantage
p-s.pnga-a.pnga-a.pnga-s.pnga-a.pnga-a.pngd-th.pngd--.png

8 damage, 2 advantage  to crit, 1 to recover strain, take 2 strain to disengage

Crit on Pan: 1d100+10 106

Horrific Injury roll 1d10

Horrific Injury which attribute: 1d10 6 Pan's agility is 1 until healed.

Leonard 9/14 wounds 6/16 strain

 

Edited by EliasWindrider

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1 hour ago, tunewalker said:

This is demonstrably incorrect by accordance to the combat tables on page 212 of the force and destiny core rule book which states right next to 1 advantage (recover 1 strain) Add boost to next allies check. notice something improtant about the conflict area...... The other stuff next to it are listed as "advantage varies" but right there on page 212 it is 1 advantage for 1 strain. The 2 advantage table does not mention strain at all but because you can spend each of your advantages as you wish you can do 1 for 1, 2 for 2 or even 3 for 3...

You are correct... Where did I get that from?

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, SavageBob said:

Why are y'all avoiding disarming for 3 Advantage? It's not an insta-win. The other guy just has to spend a maneuver to pick his lightsaber back up.

With sum djem it lands where I want which means I can pick it up with a maneuver and is an instant win,  the other way it falls at the owner's feat and is not an instant win, but him costing me a maneuver generally doesn't hurt me and I can cost him a maneuver by disengaging which means if he wants to attack me he either can't use defensive stance or has to take 4 strain.  Yes my plan with that strategy is to highlight strain and action economy advantage of niman-disciple  over soresu defender in case @Tramp Graphics reads this, which is the real purpose of me monologuing like a villain revealing his evil master plan.  Without spending the strain he can't trigger improved parry, which can't be parried.

Edited by EliasWindrider

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, EliasWindrider said:

strategy is to highlight strain and action economy advantage of niman-disciple  over soresu defender in case @Tramp Graphics reads this

Which is basically what I said in the other thread before we started this. It’s not a surprise exactly, disengaging isn’t exactly what I expected but it takes advantage of the imbalance very well. 

Edited by Jedi Ronin

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48 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

Which is basically what I said in the other thread before we started this. It’s not a surprise exactly, disengaging isn’t exactly what I expected but it takes advantage of the imbalance very well. 

I thought you were just repeating what I had said previously 😁.  But yeah disengaging is the easy way to take advantage of it.  Btw you been rolling amazingly against tougher dice pools than me and I've been rolling craptastically or at best mediocrely

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29 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

I thought you were just repeating what I had said previously 😁.  But yeah disengaging is the easy way to take advantage of it.  Btw you been rolling amazingly against tougher dice pools than me and I've been rolling craptastically or at best mediocrely

Well it looks like I may have been to cautious with the Strain. 11 Damage and Pan is out. 

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Parry 3 strain 5 wounds at but not over the threshold. 

Lightsaber: 1eP+5eA+2eD 1 success, 3 advantage
p--.pnga-a-a.pnga-s.pnga--.pnga-a-a.pnga-s.pngd-th.pngd-f.png

Like I said I've been rolling crap

7 damage, take an extra setback on your next check, recover 1 strain, take 2 strain to disengage and move to medium.

14/14 wounds 10/16 strain.

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