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Does Anyone Want Dash and Dengar To Be Good?

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Posted (edited)

Define "good"

First Ed good? I'd sooner they just not exist 

 

Though, honestly, I don't think there's ANY way to make Dash good without him just being lame. Ignoring constantly obstacles is like ignoring half the game!

Dengar is...eh. He has his perks of stupid high I and incredible ability, balanced around one of the worst dials + action bar (no white rotate turret) in the game. He could be good without being an utter pain in the *** 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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I wish Dengar was viable in some form. He currently is not, at all. He’d work as a torp carrier.... if torps weren’t also super expensive on top of his cost plus his garbage dial and actions. 

Dash? I’m not sure how to make Dash viable without bringing back super Dash. That ability is tricky to work around. 

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Dengar - maybe. I think they nerfed the Saltador Maestro 5000 too much, so he deserves some love.

But I don't think Dash can walk the thin line between playable and broken in his current form. A four attack ship with a double bowtie that ignores obtacles is insanely hard to balance, I think FFG wrote themselves into a corner with him, unfortunately...

I've actually been wishing for some time that the pilot cards were Name/Ship only. No cards text, no Initiative, no nothing, everything else stays in the app. I think that stuff like Dash can't be properly balanced with points only - it's either too good or too bad to be playable.

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Posted (edited)

Good? No.  Almost-kinda-playable by fans?  Yes.

So that means that they kind of function in their role, even if the cost is a bit off.  That'd be my goal: functional but bad value.

I think Dash is probably right.  He's too expensive, but he's also a massively powerful ship.  4-dice turret primary, with potential for Trick Shot and Outrider.  Probably not worth 114 points, but I don't really think he should be much less, if any.

Dengar... like other Jumpmasters, needs a light touch more maneuverability.  It won't happen, but it'd be cool if R4 and R4-P had their rules text switched, since that'd be a really interesting droid for Dengar or any other Jumpmaster.  Not an always-on better dial, but a dial which is better twice a game.  JM5K has the potentially potent linked Rotate, but with the current dial, it's kind of irrelevant.  The issue with Jumpmasters is that they aren't exactly functional.  If they "worked"--even if they were worse than Custom YT-1300s--that'd be fine.

Edited by theBitterFig

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1 minute ago, Rojek said:

Dengar - maybe. I think they nerfed the Saltador Maestro 5000 too much, so he deserves some love.

But I don't think Dash can walk the thin line between playable and broken in his current form. A four attack ship with a double bowtie that ignores obtacles is insanely hard to balance, I think FFG wrote themselves into a corner with him, unfortunately...

I've actually been wishing for some time that the pilot cards were Name/Ship only. No cards text, no Initiative, no nothing, everything else stays in the app. I think that stuff like Dash can't be properly balanced with points only - it's either too good or too bad to be playable.

Sensor Blindspot is actually a very substantial weak spot. If you can’t catch a lot of R2 shots, you’re overspending on firepower that doesn’t get you there.

Hera has a 5/4 double-tap after literally changing her maneuver and she’s not wrecking up the meta.

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3 minutes ago, svelok said:

2.0 Dash has already broken the game once... but it would be nice if the 2400 was at least a viable ship in some capacity. Leebo buffs?

Mart Mattin in Sato's Hammer? They could actually make that a cool/not-broken ship with an interesting pilot of middling initiative.

I want to see what they do there.

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1.0 broken levels are really bad. I hope nothing gets there. 

Fat Turrets are also generally rather poor game play. Dengar gets a slight pass cuz his ability was arc locked. 

 

--

Dengar was kind of ok to me. Fun, engaging to play. 

3 pre-pre-pre-pre-nerfx4 Contracted Scouts with Torpedoes? NO. 

Dash? NEVER EVER AGAIn. Also his ability is generally just bad design. I hope he never becomes "great again". 

 

Generally also 2 ship fat turret large ship high upgrade combo 360/always firing angle, regen, high ps run away Bs. I hope it never sees the light of day again. 

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We were just talking at my FLGS how the JM5K will need a lot of love to get itself to a playable state. We're talking price cut, gunner slot, extra illicit slot, extra mod slot, and dedicate points adjustments to those categories when equipping them on a JM5K chassis. Otherwise, why on earth would anyone fly a 2-attack single-arc turret with a million ways to gain stress and only a few ways to lose it?

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Posted (edited)

I really don’t get all the hate here. 1st edition was a totally different game. Dengar is less than 20% of his former self, and Dash now offers a LOT more counterplay than before. He will never get more than 1 action, his only reposition stresses him, his only rotate means he has no mods, he’s only throwing 1 attack or else paying dearly to split up his modless fire, he gets absolutely nothing for being blocked, he offers R3 bonus now, etc.

In exchange, he got 3 dice at R1, loses stress Over rocks, and gets a half-way blackout ability.

Technically nothing here can be defined as NPE because there’s nothing in it that removes agency from the opponent.

Edited by ClassicalMoser

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What's the point of changing edition and reworking all the ships if we're going to carry over old grudges? Yes, I think all ships should be decent as a simple matter of principle.

There's no question that the JM5K was overpowered/undercosted in 1st ed, but one of my great disappointments with 2.0 is that they didn't seem to make much of an effort to turn it into a viable-but-balanced ship. 

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19 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I really don’t get all the hate here. 1st edition was a totally different game. Dengar is less than 20% of his former self, and Dash now offers a LOT more counterplay than before. He will never get more than 1 action, his only reposition stresses him, his only rotate means he has no mods, he’s only throwing 1 attack or else paying dearly to split up his modless fire, he gets absolutely nothing for being blocked, he offers R3 bonus now, etc.

In exchange, he got 3 dice at R1, loses stress Over rocks, and gets a half-way blackout ability.

Technically nothing here can be defined as NPE because there’s nothing in it that removes agency from the opponent.

I agree. I dont understand the hate. The goal should be that all chassi are viable. 

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22 minutes ago, Pink_Viking said:

A wise man once said:

raf,750x1000,075,t,101010_01c5ca27c6.jpg

Indeed. 1.0 is dead, so are the days of 1.0 Dash and 1.0 Dengar. Why do people still hate Dash and Dengar even though FFG has already proven in 2.0 that they will quickly destroy combos that they feel ruin the game.  I think the only thing Dash needs is a points drop to become at least viable. Dengar and the JM5K chassis as a whole need a whole lot more than a points drop to be fixed since dropping points doesn't actually fix anything wrong with the ship.

 

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Posted (edited)

as above

just because it's a new edition doesn't mean everything is perfect

Dash's ability still wildly disregards a MAJOR aspect of the game and I don't believe you can really balance around that. It's either going to heave or be stupid good.

Unsure why he wasn't adapted into a charge mechanic like the resistance droid, but w.e. Do think FFG could've gone further with changing a lot of 1st ed pilot abilities (especially re: giving the best one to the highest initiatives...), but Dash is probably THE worst holdover ito just pilot ability.

 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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Posted (edited)
On 5/10/2019 at 3:55 PM, svelok said:

Issue with Dash is he wasn't reworked enough.

I'm curious how many iterations they had with Dash while bringing him to 2e.

I think a good alternative to his permanent ability would have been to make it charge-based. They really went for it with some pilots in 2.0, e.g. Poe, Dengar, Grand Inquisitor, Tallissan Lintra, Rebel Chewie, etc. You still get a great ability but it is not unlimited each turn and you have to wait for the recharge. I wonder how a Dash on a recharging 2-charge ability would fare. Seems like a more equitable pilot ability yet would keep the Dash flair from 1.0.

 

Edit:

On 5/11/2019 at 1:08 AM, Pink_Viking said:

How often would you go through more than one rock in an activation? I would say something like two or three non-recurring charges would be better, forcing you to choose where and when you'll spend the charges.

I wasn't as clear as I could have been.

 

On 5/11/2019 at 1:25 AM, NakedDex said:

I think he means spend two charges to activate, and regain on charge per turn, similar to some other abilities where reusing it is delayed that way.

Once every other turn to ignore an obstacle sounds fair. It's not often I see Dash use that ability every turn anyway.

This is exactly what I meant. I should have used better examples. Think Moff Jerjerrod or Leia but for Dash. 

Edited by Skitch_

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