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We are talking the elephant in the room, discuss cheating and part 2 of painting minis.

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This is why they really need a better system than the pile of cardboard tokens, something that dispenses with the current order tokens entirely. Something like an official order pool kit that contains a bunch of hard plastic somethings and a bag to put them in. Perhaps use D4s with the various unit type symbols on the different sides, but smooth sided so you can't tell from just the feel of the dice.

Both players would have this bag of dice and your opponent would be the one to pull your order from the pool. Sure, its just more proprietary crap that FFG can sell us, but it would fix the issue.

2 big problems with the current order tokens are that they get damaged easily, and it would be quite easy to cheat with them. Put different divots on different unit types, disguised as normal wear and tear that the tokens would suffer. Put stickers on different orientations, cleverly disguised as you simply marking that those are your tokens. etc...

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7 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

I've seen and heard of people cheating in casual games with nothing on the line. I've even seen firsthand people cheat while playing tabletop RPGs which are supposed to be cooperative story telling. It isn't always about the prize, its about "winning," either in actually winning the game, being "smarter" than the other players to get away with something, or just because they can't stand to "fail." 

Plus, there is a certain amount of notoriety that goes along with qualifying for World's, let alone winning. 

I can't even grok the impulse to minmax a list, so this is really bizarre to me.

5 hours ago, BadMotivator said:

This is why they really need a better system than the pile of cardboard tokens, something that dispenses with the current order tokens entirely.

Or dispense with Orders entirely. This is Star Wars (1977) but Orders make it feel like Gettysburg (1993). They've always been my least favorite mechanic in Legion but they're not going anywhere.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, BadMotivator said:

This is why they really need a better system than the pile of cardboard tokens, something that dispenses with the current order tokens entirely. Something like an official order pool kit that contains a bunch of hard plastic somethings and a bag to put them in. Perhaps use D4s with the various unit type symbols on the different sides, but smooth sided so you can't tell from just the feel of the dice.

Both players would have this bag of dice and your opponent would be the one to pull your order from the pool. Sure, its just more proprietary crap that FFG can sell us, but it would fix the issue.

2 big problems with the current order tokens are that they get damaged easily, and it would be quite easy to cheat with them. Put different divots on different unit types, disguised as normal wear and tear that the tokens would suffer. Put stickers on different orientations, cleverly disguised as you simply marking that those are your tokens. etc...

If the tokens are worn, they would fall under "damaged component" section of the tournament rules, requiring the player to find replacements or "treat the component as lost." Some TOs might consuder "normal wear" as marking, since each token would wear slightly differently. Avoiding wear and tear is why I have my order tokens in plastic coin protectors. 

 

Edited by Caimheul1313

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2 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

If the tokens are worn, they would fall under "damaged component" section of the tournament rules, requiring the player to find replacements or "treat the component as lost." Some TOs might consuder "normal wear" as marking, since each token would wear slightly differently. Avoiding wear and tear is why I have my order tokens in plastic coin protectors. 

 

This is why I'm going to take 16 blue and red poker chips and use a sharpie to put all the symbols on them. A plastic chip won't wear out. I have the chips I just can't find the black sharpie. Why do black sharpies always disappear?

 

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6 hours ago, BadMotivator said:

2 big problems with the current order tokens are that they get damaged easily, and it would be quite easy to cheat with them. Put different divots on different unit types, disguised as normal wear and tear that the tokens would suffer. Put stickers on different orientations, cleverly disguised as you simply marking that those are your tokens. etc...

I just use a dice bag so I don’t have a way of knowing what I’m getting. Doesn’t matter if it looks different from wear and tear on the backs. Stickers? No problem - I can’t see the orientation of the token in the bag so I can’t determine how it was “marked.” 

Actual divots deep enough to be felt blind? I have a hard time believing that would look like normal wear and tear and couldn’t happen under normal uses (unless your order tokens double as your dog’s frisbee?)

And honestly? If my components ever got that worn somehow, I’d just go buy one of those aftermarket legal token sets off Etsy. Plastic, not going to wear and tear, and won’t be giving any “tell” on the order system.

 

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I picked up a cheap bag and stenciled the Imperial Cog on it a while back just because I found it easier than stacking tokens.  This just gives me another reason to continue doing the same.

What originally had me worried was that his Mynock tokens were blamed for the problem.  I have and use the same metal tokens, and love them.  Would have to have problems arise because I swapped out boring cardboard for something shiny. 

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1 hour ago, TauntaunScout said:

This is why I'm going to take 16 blue and red poker chips and use a sharpie to put all the symbols on them. A plastic chip won't wear out. I have the chips I just can't find the black sharpie. Why do black sharpies always disappear?

 

i just ordered coin capsules on ebay, solved my problem.

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3 hours ago, TauntaunScout said:

Or dispense with Orders entirely. This is Star Wars (1977) but Orders make it feel like Gettysburg (1993). They've always been my least favorite mechanic in Legion but they're not going anywhere.

I'm the opposite, I really like the order system as a game mechanic. It gives you that extra randomness to manage and minimise as part of your strategy. Makes the command cards have more importance too as going first with a low pip sacrifices some of your order control. Maybe it's also partly the rush when you want a given unit and manage to draw it :)

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2 hours ago, DwainDibbly said:

I'm the opposite, I really like the order system as a game mechanic. It gives you that extra randomness to manage and minimise as part of your strategy. Makes the command cards have more importance too as going first with a low pip sacrifices some of your order control. Maybe it's also partly the rush when you want a given unit and manage to draw it :)

I don't like how it combines with the substantial bonuses/penalties that characters can apply to other units, and the endless keyword special effects. Makes the game all about Rube Goldberg contraptions made of dice and cards. This is also why I don't play Age of Sigmar. But unlike AoS, this has little Star Wars figures.

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12 hours ago, ScummyRebel said:

I just use a dice bag so I don’t have a way of knowing what I’m getting. Doesn’t matter if it looks different from wear and tear on the backs. Stickers? No problem - I can’t see the orientation of the token in the bag so I can’t determine how it was “marked.” 

Actual divots deep enough to be felt blind? I have a hard time believing that would look like normal wear and tear and couldn’t happen under normal uses (unless your order tokens double as your dog’s frisbee?)

And honestly? If my components ever got that worn somehow, I’d just go buy one of those aftermarket legal token sets off Etsy. Plastic, not going to wear and tear, and won’t be giving any “tell” on the order system.

 

People are clever.

Say you put a bunch of stickers that just have your name on them to denote ownership, stickers you made with your typical label maker.

Perhaps you have all your Core token's stickers have your name sticker directly in the center and the labels are perfectly square.

Your Commander stickers however, have the ends of the labels cut at an ever so slight angle while still being in the center of the token.

Your support token stickers are slightly off-center of the token, while your heavy/emplacements have their tokens slightly offcenter and have angled cuts.

 

Cheaters are sneaky, and something like this would be difficult to detect without organizers meticulously checking everybody's tokens.

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I hate bags. The ***** just look into the bag before fiddling around in it. And if they just have a glance at it before grabbing the bag, how do I know they haven't gotten to see one or two tokens before shuffling in there? I prefer the stack because if there's an issue. I just ask my opponent to let me shuffle/cut their stack.

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5 hours ago, lologrelol said:

I hate bags. The ***** just look into the bag before fiddling around in it. And if they just have a glance at it before grabbing the bag, how do I know they haven't gotten to see one or two tokens before shuffling in there? I prefer the stack because if there's an issue. I just ask my opponent to let me shuffle/cut their stack.

This is getting into why "competitive miniatures game" is oxymoronic to me. I have to cooperate more with my opponents for these things than I would've with a coworker at an entry level job. Otherwise the whole thing breaks down very quickly.

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35 minutes ago, TauntaunScout said:

This is getting into why "competitive miniatures game" is oxymoronic to me. I have to cooperate more with my opponents for these things than I would've with a coworker at an entry level job. Otherwise the whole thing breaks down very quickly.

Honestly, I feel like xwing makes a better competitive game. Mechanically, there are less places to cheat if you were really one of those people that you would be so inclined to try. It’s also much closer to being a symmetric game.

Legion is a great casual game. It requires some mutual respect to play. You have to agree on how custom terrain works. You have to have at least some trust that order token shenanigans aren’t going on. I actually like that angle and aspect, that it requires a casual atmosphere to enjoy.

I enjoy playing both for sure. 

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17 hours ago, Ophion said:

Current system is fine. The rules and the violation arent complicated. Ffg responded appropriately.  Everything else is just the community struggling to interpret what happened.

Yah, it seems pretty much this...

As for the most common type of non-intentional/intentional cheating/playing outside the rules for advantage I see is 'trick rolling'...

I think in any event, I'd prefer FFG made standard the idea of using the dice app, or dice cups.

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10 hours ago, CaptainRocket said:

Yah, it seems pretty much this...

As for the most common type of non-intentional/intentional cheating/playing outside the rules for advantage I see is 'trick rolling'...

I think in any event, I'd prefer FFG made standard the idea of using the dice app, or dice cups.

i like dice cups or towers

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On 5/10/2019 at 9:54 AM, Darth evil said:

i just ordered coin capsules on ebay, solved my problem.

This right here, I did the same. If the capsule gets marked up so you can feel something on them, you just swap it out. The token itself stays in very go shape.

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On 5/15/2019 at 5:38 AM, The Black Man said:

I use two Chessex large dice bags. One red, one blue.

They double as color player markers as well. Simple and effective.

1989174286_SWLBags.jpg.11478ff323623f27dcd07f8f05600a6e.jpg

I have these exact bags, color and all, for my legion stuff. I empty one of them at the beginning of the game and use it for orders. 

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