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ShoutingMan

Dual Cymoon + 2 Feedback wanted.

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I've been playing Triple Cymoon lately, to no success. While the main problem is my own lack of skill in navigating, my demise is only hastened by the lack of dice control is major threat with red-dice dominant ships. I want to get away from the "triple" fleets and do some more conventional, while playing with mechanics I still haven't explored. And I've never used Vader. So, here's a Vader fleet.  (I was trying to build a Dual Kuat + GSD fleet, but the GSD left me upgrade starved on the Star Destroyers.) 

 

Quote

Name: Dual Cymoon Vader + 2
Faction: Imperial
Commander: Darth Vader

Assault: Advanced Gunnery
Defense: Planetary Ion Cannon
Navigation: Dangerous Territory

ISD Cymoon 1 Refit (112)
• Darth Vader (36)
• Damage Control Officer (5)
• Boarding Troopers (3)
• XX-9 Turbolasers (5)
• XI7 Turbolasers (6)
= 167 Points

ISD Cymoon 1 Refit (112)
• Strategic Adviser (4)
• Boarding Troopers (3)
• XX-9 Turbolasers (5)
• XI7 Turbolasers (6)
• Avenger (5)
= 135 Points

Gozanti Cruisers (23)
• Comms Net (2)
= 25 Points

Gozanti Cruisers (23)
• Repair Crews (4)
= 27 Points

Squadrons:
• Valen Rudor (13)
• Ciena Ree (17)
• Howlrunner (16)
= 46 Points

Total Points: 400

 

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And just for fun, here's a quasi-equivalent based on Kuat

 

Quote

Name: Dual Kuat Vader + 2
Faction: Imperial
Commander: Darth Vader

Assault: Advanced Gunnery
Defense: Planetary Ion Cannon
Navigation: Dangerous Territory

ISD Kuat Refit (112)
• Darth Vader (36)
• Ordnance Experts (4)
• Electronic Countermeasures (7)
• Heavy Ion Emplacements (9)
• Assault Concussion Missiles (7)
= 175 Points

ISD Kuat Refit (112)
• Strategic Adviser (4)
• Ordnance Experts (4)
• Electronic Countermeasures (7)
• Heavy Ion Emplacements (9)
• Assault Concussion Missiles (7)
= 143 Points

Gozanti Cruisers (23)
• Comms Net (2)
= 25 Points

Gozanti Cruisers (23)
• Repair Crews (4)
= 27 Points

Squadrons:
• Ciena Ree (17)
• Valen Rudor (13)
= 30 Points

Total Points: 400

 

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I’m not a Cymoon user but with that much long range dice I’d push for Gunnery Teams over Boarding Troopers. Don’t rely on someone picking your Advanced Gunnery Objective, it ain’t going to happen.

Alternatively have you thought about one Cymoon and one Kuat?  You could then have BT’s on the Kuat?

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19 hours ago, Herr Style said:

I’m not a Cymoon user but with that much long range dice I’d push for Gunnery Teams over Boarding Troopers. Don’t rely on someone picking your Advanced Gunnery Objective, it ain’t going to happen.

Alternatively have you thought about one Cymoon and one Kuat?  You could then have BT’s on the Kuat?

I've got a opponent that likes to get in close range for big-ship knife fights, and BT Avenger is a bit of a counter to that.

More practically: I don't have the points for GT (7 its) over BT (3 pts).

I don't expect Advanced Gunnery to ever be picked. But I don't like any of the other Red objectives. So, it basically pushes an opponent to pick the least bad option which is Dangerous Territory.

Going Cymoon plus Kuat is a wholly sensible idea. I've been playing simple fleets to make my life easier, which nearly identical ships. So paired Kuats or paired Cymoons. So that might look like this. I also swapped SA and DCO, to put DCO on the ship more likely to running into black dice critical effects. On this fleet, I wonder if I need to remove Howlrunner to have points for ECM and/or HIE on the Kuat?

Quote

Name: Cymoon Kuat Vader + 2
Faction: Imperial
Commander: Darth Vader

Assault: Advanced Gunnery
Defense: Planetary Ion Cannon
Navigation: Dangerous Territory

ISD Cymoon 1 Refit (112)
• Darth Vader (36)
• Strategic Adviser (4)
• Gunnery Team (7)
• XX-9 Turbolasers (5)
• XI7 Turbolasers (6)
= 170 Points

ISD Kuat Refit (112)
• Damage Control Officer (5)
• Boarding Troopers (3)
• Assault Concussion Missiles (7)
• Avenger (5)
= 132 Points

Gozanti Cruisers (23)
• Comms Net (2)
= 25 Points

Gozanti Cruisers (23)
• Repair Crews (4)
= 27 Points

Squadrons:
• Valen Rudor (13)
• Ciena Ree (17)
• Howlrunner (16)
= 46 Points

Total Points: 400

 

Edited by ShoutingMan

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Or delete Howlrunner and Avenger and Boarding Troopers, and get GT and Phylon on both Cymoons.

 

Quote

Name: Dual Cymoon Vader + 2 copy
Faction: Imperial
Commander: Darth Vader

Assault: Advanced Gunnery
Defense: Planetary Ion Cannon
Navigation: Dangerous Territory

ISD Cymoon 1 Refit (112)
• Darth Vader (36)
• Damage Control Officer (5)
• Gunnery Team (7)
• Phylon Q7 Tractor Beams (6)
• XX-9 Turbolasers (5)
• XI7 Turbolasers (6)
= 177 Points

ISD Cymoon 1 Refit (112)
• Strategic Adviser (4)
• Gunnery Team (7)
• Phylon Q7 Tractor Beams (6)
• XX-9 Turbolasers (5)
• XI7 Turbolasers (6)
= 140 Points

Gozanti Cruisers (23)
• Comms Net (2)
= 25 Points

Gozanti Cruisers (23)
• Repair Crews (4)
= 27 Points

Squadrons:
• Valen Rudor (13)
• Ciena Ree (17)
= 30 Points

Total Points: 399

 

 

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Another thought is to ditch XX-9’s and Phylons to shoe horn H-9’s. To make XX-9’s work you are relying on red and blue crits to turn up. I know you have Vader, but if you roll pure hits, are you going to use him to re-roll them to risk red blanks? At least with H-9’s you are guaranteed an accuracy. That way you negate a brace, and your XI7 can minimize redirects? Just a thought. I like your BT Kuat by the way!

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That's also a good idea. With XX-9, I'm hoping that because it's not color specific, I'm as likely to get crits as non-crits, and once I start doing hull damage, getting dual face up cards will accelerate the damage (and make up for not having ACM or APT or even HIE). But it makes it easier for brace to slow down the damage. Having H9 is readily mitigated by ECM by my opponent, though. So, this fleet might look like this:

I don't know whether H9 or XX-9 is the better, more overall, best choice of points.

Quote

Name: Dual Cymoon Vader GT H9 + 2
Faction: Imperial
Commander: Darth Vader

Assault: Advanced Gunnery
Defense: Planetary Ion Cannon
Navigation: Dangerous Territory

ISD Cymoon 1 Refit (112)
• Darth Vader (36)
• Damage Control Officer (5)
• Gunnery Team (7)
• XI7 Turbolasers (6)
• H9 Turbolasers (8)
= 174 Points

ISD Cymoon 1 Refit (112)
• Strategic Adviser (4)
• Gunnery Team (7)
• XI7 Turbolasers (6)
• H9 Turbolasers (8)
= 137 Points

Gozanti Cruisers (23)
• Comms Net (2)
= 25 Points

Gozanti Cruisers (23)
• Repair Crews (4)
= 27 Points

Squadrons:
• Valen Rudor (13)
• Ciena Ree (17)
= 30 Points

Total Points: 393

 

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Hmmm. I think it all depends how much you want to keep DCO as Cymoon don’t have a defence slot.

An option to get round ECM then is Int Officer. Below is a sample of a Kuat: -

ISD Kuat Refit (112)
• Intel Officer (7)
• Ordnance Experts (4)
• Electronic Countermeasures (7)
• Assault Concussion Missiles (7)
• Avenger (5)
= 142 Points

You could either swap this in for your second Cymoon or ditch H9’s and DCO off your Vader Cymoon, put Int O in and XX9’s back on. Then put SA on the Kuat for you to threaten with a last/first.

Another thought is what is your biggest threat? Your fighter coverage is minimal, so maybe ditch your Ties and a Gozanti to fit in a Kallus Raider with Flechettes? It would make it public enemy number one with fighter heavy lists but then gives your Kuat time to run in and unload on the enemy main ship? Don’t know if this is better but I personally like my Kallus Raider 😀.

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Or this: -

ISD Cymoon 1 Refit (112)
• Darth Vader (36)
• Intel Officer (7)
• Gunnery Team (7)
• Spinal Armament (9)
• XI7 Turbolasers (6)
= 177 Points

ISD Kuat Refit (112)
• Strategic Adviser (4)
• Boarding Troopers (3)
• Electronic Countermeasures (7)
• Assault Concussion Missiles (7)
• Avenger (5)
= 138 Points

Gozanti Cruisers (23)
• Comms Net (2)
= 25 Points

Gozanti Cruisers (23)
• Repair Crews (4)
= 27 Points

Squadrons:
• Ciena Ree (17)
• Valen Rudor (13)
= 30 Points

Total Points: 397

6 red dice (7 with Conc fire), use your Int-O to threaten the brace, if they use it they lose it. XI7’s to minimize any redirect.

Kuat activated using SA if you can to get in close. Flip their tokens with BT. Use Vader for rerolls and they take 4 dice from the side and then the full house straight after, both attacks using ACM for four extra hits! Brutal!

If you need a bid, lose repair crews and possibly ECM????

 

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I played this fleet, from like the 4th post. For this first go, the recommendation to remove Boarding Troopers was key. BT were counter to my strategic goal of staying out of close range. And that freed up points to get Phylon. I had confidence my opponent was flying a Sato black-dice ACM fleet that used Phylon to slow me down. Countering ***-for-tat with my Phylon was a strategic choice, made possible by the suggested rearrangements.

 

The downside was because I was flying at long range as possible, the ISDs never really engaged, never used DCO or XX-9 or even XI7. Vader was used once or twice. 

Quote

Name: Dual Cymoon Vader GT XX-9 + 2
Faction: Imperial
Commander: Darth Vader

Assault: Advanced Gunnery
Defense: Planetary Ion Cannon
Navigation: Dangerous Territory

ISD Cymoon 1 Refit (112)
• Darth Vader (36)
• Damage Control Officer (5)
• Gunnery Team (7)
• Phylon Q7 Tractor Beams (6)
• XX-9 Turbolasers (5)
• XI7 Turbolasers (6)
= 177 Points

ISD Cymoon 1 Refit (112)
• Strategic Adviser (4)
• Gunnery Team (7)
• Phylon Q7 Tractor Beams (6)
• XX-9 Turbolasers (5)
• XI7 Turbolasers (6)
= 140 Points

Gozanti Cruisers (23)
• Comms Net (2)
= 25 Points

Gozanti Cruisers (23)
• Repair Crews (4)
= 27 Points

Squadrons:
• Valen Rudor (13)
• Ciena Ree (17)
= 30 Points

Total Points: 399

 

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2 hours ago, Herr Style said:

Or this: -

ISD Cymoon 1 Refit (112)
• Darth Vader (36)
• Intel Officer (7)
• Gunnery Team (7)
• Spinal Armament (9)
• XI7 Turbolasers (6)
= 177 Points

ISD Kuat Refit (112)
• Strategic Adviser (4)
• Boarding Troopers (3)
• Electronic Countermeasures (7)
• Assault Concussion Missiles (7)
• Avenger (5)
= 138 Points

Gozanti Cruisers (23)
• Comms Net (2)
= 25 Points

Gozanti Cruisers (23)
• Repair Crews (4)
= 27 Points

Squadrons:
• Ciena Ree (17)
• Valen Rudor (13)
= 30 Points

Total Points: 397

6 red dice (7 with Conc fire), use your Int-O to threaten the brace, if they use it they lose it. XI7’s to minimize any redirect.

Kuat activated using SA if you can to get in close. Flip their tokens with BT. Use Vader for rerolls and they take 4 dice from the side and then the full house straight after, both attacks using ACM for four extra hits! Brutal!

If you need a bid, lose repair crews and possibly ECM????

 

Having done the dual Cymoon successfully, I'm intrigued to change it up with this kind of Cymoon Kuat combo. Repair crews was actually useful, but I didn't appreciate how fussy and hard it is to use. I might swap out for Comms net on both Gozanti. Otherwise, this is very much in line with what I might fly next. :)

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I’d be interested to hear how you got on. My favourite list at the moment is an Ozzel list with Kuat, Demo, 2 Raiders and a Gozanti. A Cymoon/Kuat my be a natural progression, maybe with Vader?

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20 hours ago, Herr Style said:

I’d be interested to hear how you got on. My favourite list at the moment is an Ozzel list with Kuat, Demo, 2 Raiders and a Gozanti. A Cymoon/Kuat my be a natural progression, maybe with Vader?

I didn't take any pictures of this game, so I didn't write up a "battle report" as I sometimes do. It went something like this:

 

My opponent had a Rebel fleet, Sato + dual MC75 + 2, and three squads (Shara Bey, another Ace, and an E-Wing). The MC75's had ACM and OE and External Racks and Phylon. He's played this fleet, with minor variations, the last several games. It clobbers me because he can get ACM shots at long range to chew down my shields, and then I get boxed in at close range and Cymoon without dice control can't overcome MC75 firing ACM for a couple of rounds.

 

This dual Cymoon fleet was built to counter that, with a plan to "fly" it in a sensible way to counter a close range, knife-fight fleet.

 

He won the bid, and chose second player. I prefer second, but was unconcerned since I was activation matched (we both had four ships and SA). Previously I was playing triple Cymoon without SA, and the activation disadvantage was significant.

 

I chose Solar Corona as objective. I put obstacles in the middle of the board, anticipating flying the perimeter to remain at Medium or Long range. I deployed both Cymoons far to my left with the Gozanti packed in close. The Flagship was farthest to the outside, with the Repair Crews Goz nearest it. The two squads where in ahead of the Comms Net Goz. He deployed in the middle, intending to sweep down the center and come at me from right / rear and hopefully even get an MC75 in front of me and box in at least one Cymoon.

 

I deployed at speed 2, and went slightly wide. Unfortunately, my positioning didn't allow me to launch a first-strike Squadron attack on his squads. I really want to get Ciena and Valen on top of the E-Wing and take it out early. Then I could trap at least one Ace and slug it out for most of the game, hopefully. But we danced a little bit and the second round I had to trap Shara Bey (a Counter 3 scatter ace) with my duo, and E-Wing at sniping distance. To my annoyance, Ciena rolled two accuracies and two critical, doing nothing, and ate two damage from the counter. Valen's black dice were then trivially scattered. I was really expecting at least one damage from Ciena, to either nibble, or force the decision of using the scatter. 

 

From there, I flew the up my left side of the board. We PHylon'd each other mostly mitigating the effects, which is what I wanted. I need to slow him down to prevent the devastating close range attack. Meanwhile, he had a Slicer GR75 coming down the middle to go after my support Cymoon. I got a long-range on the GR75, and five reds and a vader later, I either had no accuracies and he scattered, or I had like three accuracies and one critical. In any case, I didn't one-shot the GR75. His support MC75 had long range on me, with the E-Wing in close range, so his ACM chewed on that Cymoon.

Third round, I got in double-arc Medium of the GR75, and used my First activation to advantage, and killed it. Five red and two blue and a Concentrate Fire command, it went as it should and popped the flotilla. I then Gunnery Team'd the E-Wing with double black to nibble it down. But killing Slicer Tools was a big deal, giving me the activation advantage and robbing him of a chance to possible slow me down and get in close range. We then traded blows with squadrons, and I was just able kill Shara Bey with Ciena/Valen without dying. I had a good Squadron activation, killing Shara with Valen, and then putting Ciena on the E-Wing to kill it. He later got his third squadron on me and killed Ciena. 

 

So at this point, I've used Boosted Comms Goz to issue squad commands the first half of the game, and not pass any tokens usefully. The Repair Crews due to misplanning, is totally out of range following the Flagship when I need it the other side of the table near the supporting Cymoon, which has some Hull damage cards now.

 

At this point, it's just me flying at long range or just outside long range, and trying to get the Goz moving and away from the looming MC75's. Through good use of Scatter / Evade, and actually twice Repair Crew-ing from one Goz to the other Goz, and a couple garbage rolls by the MC75's, my flotillas stayed alive. I could afford to lose one, but keeping the threatened one alive so long, meant that the risk of losing both was greatly reduced. And by points, I could lose a flotilla and still win.

 

Rounds 5 and 6 were basically him trying to kill a flotilla, and me pushing my Cymoons around the corner at maximum speed possible (Phylon challenging that). I couldn't get arc on him, and he couldn't get on me. 

 

it was kind of a big slow game with little action. I won, on points maybe 40 to 15. If he'd killed a Goz, I'd have won something like 40 to 36. 

 

But it was the win I knew i had to go after. If he didn't have Phylon, I could have possible gone to the next level of my strategy and circled around and come up from behind late game. But I flew fast and wide, killed a flotilla early on, and slowed him down as much as possible.

 

Next game, he's probably flying a new fleet. I'll probably fly Cymoon + Kuat or Dual Kuat. I'm intrigued now by Dual Kuat Screed with ACM and HIE. Screen promises less damage than Vader, but he all but guarantees critical effects. And HIE would enable shields to be chewed down until (hopefully) closing in and killing with BT and ACM. 

 

I also like the Cymoon plus Kuat for Long and Close range duality, but I'm not a skilled navigator and don't readily know how to fly that effectively. So that's a stretch goal. :)

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1 hour ago, The Jabbawookie said:

 

1 hour ago, Herr Style said:

I’d be tempted with Screed HIE/ACM to use Ord Experts, just in case the blues come up no crits

You need FCT in that slot to trigger both crits.  Otherwise the whole build becomes pretty questionable.

 

My bad thank you!

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I haven’t used FCT. My thinking is HIE triggers at Medium and only does Shield damage. ACM is close range but does Hull. The goal is chew shields at Medium and kill Hull at Close with the pair. Screed to guarantee both are effective. 

 

FCT to use both at close range would be even more amazing.

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As per The Jabbawookie, you need FCT for both HIE and ACM to trigger. I totally forgot that (and keep forgetting in my list building). As you put, you could use them one at a time, but blue range is so minimal it might just be a waste of 9 points to get 2 extra shields for one turn.

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Cymoons are tough. I have kind of decided not to bother with them until krennic arrives. There are a couple main problems I have found with them. 

1. Lack of dice mitigation options. If you are running Cymoons you essentially have to take Vader as your commander you could take veteran gunners but they are not as effective and then you can't take gunnery teams which you really want on cymoons. 

2. The lack of a defensive retrofit hurts (a lot) especially when you are spending defense tokens for re rolls. 

here is a version that works decently well

Name: Black Double cymoon
Faction: Imperial
Commander: Darth Vader

Assault: Close-Range Intel Scan
Defense: Fire Lanes
Navigation: Solar Corona

ISD Cymoon 1 Refit (112)
• Strategic Adviser (4)
• Intensify Firepower! (6)
• Gunnery Team (7)
• XI7 Turbolasers (6)
• Spinal Armament (9)
= 144 Points

ISD Cymoon 1 Refit (112)
• Darth Vader (36)
• Gunnery Team (7)
• XI7 Turbolasers (6)
• Spinal Armament (9)
• Avenger (5)
= 175 Points

Gozanti Cruisers (23)
• Comms Net (2)
= 25 Points

Squadrons:
• Ciena Ree (17)
• Soontir Fel (18)
• Zertik Strom (15)
= 50 Points

Total Points: 394

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On 5/7/2019 at 6:41 PM, Herr Style said:

As per The Jabbawookie, you need FCT for both HIE and ACM to trigger. I totally forgot that (and keep forgetting in my list building). As you put, you could use them one at a time, but blue range is so minimal it might just be a waste of 9 points to get 2 extra shields for one turn.

Three extra shields per ship. HIE affects hull zone targeted and two adjacent. 

 

But the 18 points of HIE could be swapped out for Howlrunner (to bolster Ciena and Valen), or spent on title cards, or used to upgrade the Gozantis. This is the realm of experimentation for me. I'm intrigued by swapping out Boarding Troopers to bring in Fire Control Teams for double criticals, but then I lose Ordnance Experts, helpful for maximizing the ACM critical damage. Interesting options :)

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9 hours ago, Kylemcph240 said:

Cymoons are tough. I have kind of decided not to bother with them until krennic arrives. There are a couple main problems I have found with them. 

1. Lack of dice mitigation options. If you are running Cymoons you essentially have to take Vader as your commander you could take veteran gunners but they are not as effective and then you can't take gunnery teams which you really want on cymoons. 

2. The lack of a defensive retrofit hurts (a lot) especially when you are spending defense tokens for re rolls. 

here is a version that works decently well

Name: Black Double cymoon
Faction: Imperial
Commander: Darth Vader

Assault: Close-Range Intel Scan
Defense: Fire Lanes
Navigation: Solar Corona

ISD Cymoon 1 Refit (112)
• Strategic Adviser (4)
• Intensify Firepower! (6)
• Gunnery Team (7)
• XI7 Turbolasers (6)
• Spinal Armament (9)
= 144 Points

ISD Cymoon 1 Refit (112)
• Darth Vader (36)
• Gunnery Team (7)
• XI7 Turbolasers (6)
• Spinal Armament (9)
• Avenger (5)
= 175 Points

Gozanti Cruisers (23)
• Comms Net (2)
= 25 Points

Squadrons:
• Ciena Ree (17)
• Soontir Fel (18)
• Zertik Strom (15)
= 50 Points

Total Points: 394

I was trying to fly triple cymoon and the lack of dice control was a huge problem. They're a weird ship. All those red dice are heartbreaking :) And against black-dice ships, they can crumple easily. I like your fleet. It's similar in spirit and design as what I flew recently. I never think to use Spinal because I don't actually have the card.

 

That's interesting trio of squadrons. What's the interplay? I'm used to playing the "canonical" Ciena Ree and Valen Rudor (and maybe Howlrunner).

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I have found recently that the Soontir/escort combo works nicely because soontir's ability is if he is engaged with an enemy and is no the target of an attack the enemy takes one damage. So he and Ciena hide behind Strom while they slowly kill themselves while trying to kill strom

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4 hours ago, Kylemcph240 said:

strom

Not worth it in double isd lists. 

I would do something like this because you make the cymoon really good at living, which is it’s main problem. You could cut glad+7th fleet titles for squads and gozanti. I think Vader is needed in a list with the cymoon as he needs rerolls and you need tua. I can take ms-1s now which is fun to trigger on bta pryce because it basically gives you an antibrace for both of your attacks, which can end the game. Idk still looking at it. I have run isd 2 and kuat, and kuat and kuat. These lists both work well.

Commander: Darth Vader

Assault: Advanced Gunnery
Defense: Contested Outpost
Navigation: Solar Corona

ISD Cymoon 1 Refit (112)
• Darth Vader (36)
• Minister Tua (2)
• Gunnery Team (7)
• Heavy Turbolaser Turrets (6)
• Spinal Armament (9)
• Seventh Fleet Star Destroyer (5)
• Electronic Countermeasures (7)
= 184 Points

ISD Kuat Refit (112)
• Governor Pryce (7)
• Boarding Troopers (3)
• Electronic Countermeasures (7)
• MS-1 Ion Cannons (2)
• External Racks (3)
• Avenger (5)
= 139 Points

Gladiator I (56)
• External Racks (3)
• Seventh Fleet Star Destroyer (5)
= 64 Points

Squadrons:
= 0 Points

Total Points: 387

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8 hours ago, Kylemcph240 said:

I have found recently that the Soontir/escort combo works nicely because soontir's ability is if he is engaged with an enemy and is no the target of an attack the enemy takes one damage. So he and Ciena hide behind Strom while they slowly kill themselves while trying to kill strom

Hmmm...not sure I follow. Zertik isn't a scatter ace, so Scatter Aces with Counter 2 or Counter 3 will chew him up in a few rolls. And Zertik is killing his own fellow squadrons to get his rerolls. I can see how he works if countering a mob of generic squadrons. But my hyper-local meta is a small number of scatter aces. :)

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