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freakyg3

Can Hera co ordinate no one?

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Hera with composure and a docked sheathapede

the question is - if there are no other ships on the board can Hera try to co ordinate no one fail and get a bonus focus token?

 

 

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Yes, a coordinate can fail, which would trigger composure, allowing you to take a focus action (not gain a focus token!), only if you don’t already have any green tokens.

So you can coordinate/fail->focus before activation (thanks, Shethipede) and then take any other action besides focus during activation.

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50 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Worth noting perhaps that the fail condition for coordinate is no friendlies in range. If there are any in range it succeeds even if the target isn't able to perform an action, or if that action fails.

I was actually discussing an interaction with Darth Sidious crew, and we wound up at the conclusion that if you choose a ship that cannot take any actions (due to being stressed or similar), the coordinate also fails, since you don't complete step 3 of coordinating. Might be worth revisiting the criteria for failing a coordinate.

I know the rules don't specifically state it, but they do state that if you can't do step 2, the coordinate fails. If you complete step 3, but the action fails, the coordinate does not fail. So, if you can't do step 3, (The chosen ship cannot perform one action) it should follow that the coordinate fails.

 

20190503_160032.jpg

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@ConomeOnTheVine I agree with the first half of your statement "if you choose a ship that has not actions available, or it's stressed" then you don't satisfy step three, and the coordinate fails. But if that ship has any actions available, the coordinate succeeds. As @thespaceinvader says, it's right there under "Additionally".

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1 minute ago, thespaceinvader said:

See the text below 'additionally'.

Specifically, that a failed action does not cause the coordinate to fail.  The only thing listed that does, is when no friendly ship can be chosen.  So that is the only thing that does.

I know the rules don't specifically state it, but they do state that if you can't do step 2, the coordinate fails. If you complete step 3, but the action fails, the coordinate does not fail. So, if you can't do step 3, (The chosen ship cannot perform one action) it should follow that the coordinate fails.

There's a distinct difference between attempting to perform an action and failing, and not being able to perform an action in the first place, since the rules say that a stressed ship cannot perform actions.

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3 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

There's absolutely nothing that says that you have to fulfil all of the steps of an action for it to succeed.  There is only one thing in the rule that says how it fails.

 

You're making stuff up.

To be fair, i see what they are getting at. And yeah, there kind of is something that says that.. under Fail on pg 11

Quote

Some effects can fail, which means the effect did not resolve as intended and instead is resolved in a default way.

While it is kinda vague, i think its fair to say that having a ship perform an action is the intended resolution of coordinate. The additional outline under coordinate states the ship has to at least 'attempt' to perform an action for it not to fail. And i cant find anything that says a ship can even attempt an action if it is stressed. Just that it flat out cant, meaning it cannot even attempt it.

So, given all that, id (personally) say that, coordinate would fail if it tried to coordinate a ship that cannot attempt to perform an action, as that is that actions intended effect.

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Posted (edited)

I'm agreeing more with @theBitterFigand @thespaceinvader

Coordinate checks for ANY friendly R1-2, if there are none the action fails as per rules. If there is a stressed ship or one that's already performed focus and haven't got room to barrel roll, coordinate still doesn't fail, as the chosen ship was given the opportunity via coordinate to perform an action.

There is no step 2.5 where the controlling player decides if they want to forcefully abort a coordinate. It also doesnt state the coordinated ship need to be able to perform an action.

Perhaps this could be clarrified by adding a single caveat to the first coordinate rule. "Measure range from the coordinating ship to any friendly ships able to attempt an action"

If I had two other ships on table, one range 1 or 2 stressed, the other borderline range 2/3 unstressed.

I attempt to coordinate but my non-stressed ship is range 3 :(

But I have composure so it's not a wasted action woo. 😎

Then my opponent says "but your stressed ship is a viable choice according to RAW" so no focus for me. 😥

I think this should be FAQ'd or have the rules clarrified, to reduce feel bad 'gotcha' moments in the game.

Edited by Scum4Life
Extra info.

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what? the rules are super clear on this one. i don't see any support for the conclusion that if the ship coordinated cannot perform an action, the coordinate would fail. it's simply nowhere in the rules.



Capture.jpg
 

if there is a friendly ship at range 1-2, that ship has to be chosen. it's not optional and not dependant on whether or not that ship can perform actions. if you complete this step, the action is successful, since the only time you fail a coordinate action if no friendly ships can be chosen. there are other ways to extend the range beyond 1-2 as well, for example C-3PO (resistance crew, lets you coordinate any ship in play if it has the calculate action on it's action bar) or Major Stridan (upsilon pilot, can coordinate at range 3).

and yes, the Comms Shuttle ship ability of the Sheathipede does let it's carrier perform a coordinate action before it activates. if there are no friendly ships to choose, the action fails and would in that case trigger composure, letting the carrier ship perform a focus action.

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1 hour ago, Lyianx said:

um.... see my post. 

i've seen your post. it doesn't make any sense what so ever. it's not based on the rules and how they function. i always read the whole thread before posting a response.

"Some effects can fail, which means the effect did not resolve as intended and instead is resolved in a default way."

it isn't fair to say that the intention of a coordinate effect is to let another ship perform an action and conclude that coordination fails if the ship coordinated cannot perform an action. it's clearly stated under coordinate what the intent is - "pilots can coordinate to assist their allies.". it is also clearly stated when a coordinate action fails. if it was intended to fail if the ship coordinated cannot perform an action, then that would have been stated.

you're trying to justify something that the rules do not say you can do. it's baseless and ridiculous. 

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, Lyianx said:

So, given all that, id (personally) say that, coordinate would fail if it tried to coordinate a ship that cannot attempt to perform an action, as that is that actions intended effect.

I 10% get where you're coming from, but don't agree.

I think there's a difference between not getting the result you wanted from an action and a proper failure.  A good example would be a Lock action.  Whatever a player's intent with the Lock action doesn't matter: they've got to lock some object in range.  Doesn't matter if that means the lock is now useless, or if you're now forced to break an earlier lock.

Moreover, another good example would be coordinating a ship which then fails the bonus action.  Hera coordinates Wedge or whoever, who tries to barrel roll but there's a rock in the way.  Hera's coordinate is clearly successful, even if Wedge fails.  I don't see this as fundamentally different than attempting to coordinate a stressed ship.  There are enough effects out there which grant limited exceptions to "no actions while stressed" that it seems a lot more like a failed action by the coordinated ship, rather than a failure of the coordinator to pick a valid target.

To impute a "coordinated action goes wrong means the coordinate fails" rule just doesn't seem supported.  In all the other rules for actions which can fail, the causes of failures are pretty clearly spelled out.  Lack of ships in range, moving over an obstacle, overlapping an object, or trying to move off the board.  I just don't think there's nearly enough in the rules to justify a leap like this.

There's enough of a hint or a faint suggestion that, if FFG issued a ruling otherwise, it wouldn't seem entirely unsupported.  But right now it looks like a house of cards compared to a strong timber frame, when comparing the two arguments.

Edited by theBitterFig

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"resolve as intended"  i dont see as looking at the players intent, but the intent of the action/ability itself.  When you perform a lock action, the intent of the action is to acquire a lock. It doesn't care which object gets lock, as long as one is chosen and a lock token is assigned to it. Even if the players intent was to lock a specific ship, if hes still able to lock an asteroid, that's good enough to fulfill the Lock actions intent, even if it was not the players intent. 

I see it the same with coordinate. The intent of the action, is to give another ship an action. What action that ship does, or if that action succeeds, it doesn't care. If it can point to a ship and say "you get an action", then its satisfied. I just see it as, if it says "you get an action" and it says "but i cant take actions", then the intent of the coordinate action isn't met. 

Again tho, thats just how i see it. 

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the intent of the coordinate action is clearly to give friendly ships assistance in the form of giving them an additional opportunity to perform an action. if you fail to do that, the action fails. if the ship given the opportunity to perform an action cannot perform actions, it was still given the opportunity and the coordinate action was therfore successful.

at least that way of seeing it is supported by the rules.

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Additional question.

Let's say I have Sai+Title

I try To coordinate a focus action  con ship 1(so i get focus+lock con someone)

Ship 1 is R3, checking ranges i have something else R1-2 (wampa e.g.) which already did focus action.

Can I coordinate  it  a focus even if it is not  able To perform it?

(Doesn't feel quite correct) 

 

Sai: After you a perform a coordinate action, if the ship you chose performed an action on your action bar, you may perform that action.

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This. Any time something is badged as "perform an action", whatever is giving you the action (co-ordinate, a pilot ability, an upgrade, your 'normal' perform action step, etc), it's always bound by the "you can only try an action once per turn" and "no actions when stressed" rules unless the trigger giving you the action specifically gives you a free pass one or other of those restrictions.

That's why anything which says "acquire a lock" or "assign a token" or similar wording is so important.

 

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