Should Reinforce be buffed?

[thespaceinvader 17,473]

The YV is in a painful place, because the ones that aren't Moralo are too easily outmanoeuvred (Bossk really needed Engine in 1e to not get outmaneouvred), but Moralo is very easy to avoid by just... not flying near the board edges.  If he engages, he loses his ability.

 

They're also, like every large base ship that isn't the Scimitar, painfully overpriced.

[Scum4Life 417]

47 minutes ago, Octarine-08 said:

I think your opponent should get a reward for out positioning you.

This is a game about dogfighting after all. So increasing the different areas you could reinforce would make it harder to get around, but the direction of reinforce would be revealed so ships roll or boost around it, plus splitting into two group and attacking from both sides is outflying.

Seems like most people are happy with reinforce as is, so I can only hope the large ships go down in points to become competive.

[Ximatique 113]

What if there was an upgrade in the future that could give the reinforcement action to any ship ? Would it be broken ?

[Scum4Life 417]

23 minutes ago, Ximatique said:

What if there was an upgrade in the future that could give the reinforcement action to any ship ? Would it be broken? 

No, I don't think so.

As it's use is best on low agility ships, against swarms or lots of dice at once (Fenn Rau R1, Proton Torpedoes , etc)

 

Scurrgs and G1-As might like it :)

But it's already on most high health low agility ships.

Edited May 3, 2019 by Scum4Life
Extra info.

[thespaceinvader 17,473]

21 minutes ago, Ximatique said:

What if there was an upgrade in the future that could give the reinforcement action to any ship ? Would it be broken ?

Probably not, to be honest.  It gets actively worse the more defence dice you have, and the majority of low agility ships already have it.  Especially if you make it either large, or medium and large base only.  And very few of those have the action economy to make good use of it even if they do get it.

I'd price a modification for a white reinforce at maybe 4 points.  Because it has SO much opportunity cost.

 

I'd love to see B Wings, in particular, get access to it.

[Scum4Life 417]

2 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

I'd price a modification for a white reinforce at maybe 4 points.  Because it has SO much opportunity cost.

 

I'd love to see B Wings, in particular, get access to it.

How about Angled deflectors, 2 points - while you are not damaged (no hull damage Raw) your action bars gains a white reinforce.

Good for B-Wings, Scurrgs, G1-As., maybe Y-wings, and T-70?

[thespaceinvader 17,473]

I'd prefer whilst you are shielded - thematically, the reinforce is based on angling shields, so you shoudl have to have shields.

And shielded/unshielded are keywords that mean what you'd expect.

This means that sneaking damage under shields doesn't turn it off forever.

Interestingly, making it red would make it better for B wings.

[Pink_Viking 295]

45 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Interestingly, making it red would make it better for B wings.

As if Rebel beef needs to get any beefier (while getting ability mods).

[thespaceinvader 17,473]

Another interesting thing to do would be to say 'white reinforce, whilst you are reinforced, if you are attacked from the side that is not reinforced, roll 1 fewer defence dice.'

Gives it a strong jousting profile but makes it incredibly painful to use if you're at risk of being outflanked.

[Scum4Life 417]

29 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Another interesting thing to do would be to say 'white reinforce, whilst you are reinforced, if you are attacked from the side that is not reinforced, roll 1 fewer defence dice.'

Gives it a strong jousting profile but makes it incredibly painful to use if you're at risk of being outflanked.

So drop it to 1 point, whilst shielded your action bar gains the reinforce action. While reinforced, when your non-reinforced side is attacked roll one fewer defense dice?

I don't want it to be stressful, as 1 it helps only the named B-wing pilots, who are already doing quite well, whereas this helps generics and other ships.

[AceDogbert 528]

I don't think Reinforce is weak at the moment. I've found it to be very useful in reducing incoming damage on ships like the Ghost or Lambda, especially when you ways of modifying eyeball results (Saw on the Ghost, a Force user on the Lambda etc) which mean you can use actions other than Focus.

[KaLeu 209]

My one and only concern with reinforce is that it‘s a green token and jamming beam costs zero points. I don‘t even consider tinkering with reinforce because of that. Make it a blue token or up jamming beam to 1 point cost. Done.

[thespaceinvader 17,473]

Making Reinforce a blue token would be really interesting and would be a hugely help to every single ship with the action, and probably not unbalanced with it.  It might put things like YVs and Decis actually on tables.

 

But if you do that, definitely don't make an upgrade to add it.

[Scum4Life 417]

9 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Making Reinforce a blue token would be really interesting and would be a hugely help to every single ship with the action, and probably not unbalanced with it.  It might put things like YVs and Decis actually on tables.

 

But if you do that, definitely don't make an upgrade to add it.

Make Jamming Beam 4 dice and cost 1 point, and keep reinforce as a green token?

I quite like that a jam action or beam can get rid of reinforce, even though I think reinforce feels a bit weak. 

[pyoinator 267]

39 minutes ago, KaLeu said:

My one and only concern with reinforce is that it‘s a green token and jamming beam costs zero points. I don‘t even consider tinkering with reinforce because of that. Make it a blue token or up jamming beam to 1 point cost. Done.

If you made reinforce a blue token, wouldn't it persist round to round? I believe orange and green tokens are removed, red and blue tokens stay, which would be an issue for reinforce. 

[Innese 2,378]

26 minutes ago, pyoinator said:

If you made reinforce a blue token, wouldn't it persist round to round? I believe orange and green tokens are removed, red and blue tokens stay, which would be an issue for reinforce. 

It would indeed persist round-to-round but with how it currently works it would still negate everything but that last point of damage. I’d kinda be okay with this, as long as ships either couldn’t continue to reinforce, it was tied into shields, or were stopped at 2 tokens.

[thespaceinvader 17,473]

35 minutes ago, pyoinator said:

If you made reinforce a blue token, wouldn't it persist round to round? I believe orange and green tokens are removed, red and blue tokens stay, which would be an issue for reinforce. 

Yes that would be the point. If you consider reinforce as changing the shield settings there's no need to have it fall off every round.

[KaLeu 209]

48 minutes ago, pyoinator said:

If you made reinforce a blue token, wouldn't it persist round to round? I believe orange and green tokens are removed, red and blue tokens stay, which would be an issue for reinforce. 

Ah, didn‘t thought about that. My intention was only to make it proof against the zero point  jamming beam. So i just stick with give jamming beam a one point cost, i guess.

 

[pyoinator 267]

30 minutes ago, Innese said:

It would indeed persist round-to-round but with how it currently works it would still negate everything but that last point of damage. I’d kinda be okay with this, as long as ships either couldn’t continue to reinforce, it was tied into shields, or were stopped at 2 tokens.

That is too much. If it sticks around, turn 1 they reinforce and then later they are free to use their other actions to get offensive mods. If it's stopped at 2 tokens, you can reinforce 360 or double-reinforce one side. Furthermore, there's no mechanic in place to remove blue tokens, so new rules would have to be written to remove them once they're on. Having to spend an action to reinforce is the only thing imo keeping reinforce balanced. Shooting into a reinforced target still reduces a lot of damage, and is well worth spending your action to do. 

[GuacCousteau 1,522]

1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:

Making Reinforce a blue token would be really interesting and would be a hugely help to every single ship with the action, and probably not unbalanced with it.  It might put things like YVs and Decis actually on tables.

 

But if you do that, definitely don't make an upgrade to add it.

This seems a strange comment to me.

Only because, towards the end of 1e, people were crying out for Reinforce to be considered a 'green token' so that abilities like Wes Janson's and Carnor Jax's would work on it. 

Obviously reinforce is a very different ability now, but this reversal is still amusing. I think it highlights that - at either end of the argument - the problem is not, and never was, reinforce, but the ships that currently have access to it. 

1 hour ago, KaLeu said:

My one and only concern with reinforce is that it‘s a green token and jamming beam costs zero points. I don‘t even consider tinkering with reinforce because of that. Make it a blue token or up jamming beam to 1 point cost. Done.

This also seems backwards to me.

Jamming Beam is almost utterly useless to the point that many people won't bother taking it even though it's free. It's only edge case uses are for target locks in a particularly threatening ordnance situation or reinforce tokens. 

That someone wouldn't bother with reinforce capable ships because of the fear of Jamming Beam, of all things, is incredibly bizarre to me. 

1 hour ago, pyoinator said:

If you made reinforce a blue token, wouldn't it persist round to round? I believe orange and green tokens are removed, red and blue tokens stay, which would be an issue for reinforce. 

Technically, the rule is actually that square tokens persist, and round tokens are removed. The colour distinction is just an additional aid that happens to coincide with that rule. 

It would be possible for FFG to create a round blue token that went away at the end of each round but wasn't included in 'green token' clauses. 

They would probably make it another colour, though, just to avoid confusion. 

[thespaceinvader 17,473]

1e reinforce worked a LOT differently.

[ficklegreendice 34,336]

The only reinforce I feel is "bad" is the Spray's red reinforce

But that's a RED reinforce...

Anyway, the second Ed limitations exist because we learned VERY well from the first Ed Auzzie what unmitigated reinforce does to the game (and it ain't ******* pretty)

This way is better because a.) It can be reasonably outplayed and b.) It doesn't utterly curbstomp two die ships 

 

[PhantomFO 8,935]

8 hours ago, gadwag said:

It would be cool and thematic if reinforce meant crits were cancelled first (in addition to its normal effect), but honestly that's far too much complexity (and probably too good) so it should stay how it is

I actually like this idea, especially since almost every ship with Reinforce is particularly vulnerable to getting blown up by crits.

[Scum4Life 417]

12 minutes ago, PhantomFO said:

I actually like this idea, especially since almost every ship with Reinforce is particularly vulnerable to getting blown up by crits.

@gadwag Yeah I really like this, cancelling Crits first with reinforce

12 minutes ago, PhantomFO said:

 

l

[Scum4Life 417]

1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:

Yes that would be the point. If you consider reinforce as changing the shield settings there's no need to have it fall off every round.

I initially thought NO WAY, that's crazy powerful, but actually, If reinforce required shields to be used (New rule states you can't remain reinforced if unshielded) then this is kinda cool. Sure all ships that can reinforce are objectively stronger now. I think only one direction of reinforce should be possible at one time, to allow arc dodging.

Hmm, now it sucks that YV's have such low shields, and might be OP for Firesprays.

I'm sure this would be broken but I really like the idea of a more permanent reinforce.