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MikeEvans

Should Reinforce be buffed?

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I feel like the Reinforce action is a bit lackluster.  Maybe the old version that always blocked 1 damage was too strong, but needing to take two damage for it to do any good is pretty harsh.  Esp. since, as far as I understand it, if you roll any evade dice, they take effect first, so rolling evades can actually turn off your ability.  (Example:  A defending reinforced Lambda is looking at damage results.  It rolls 1 evade result on its die and cancels one hit, so Reinforce does nothing)

I also don't understand why Reinforce only works on the front and back.  Why not the side arcs?  I remember a scene in one of the OT movies where Chewie was rotating the deflectors to defend against oncoming TIEs.  Why not allow Reinforce to bolster to the side?  New tokens could be printed, but it's not strictly necessary; one can just point the arrow of the token in the direction of the reinforcement.  I understand that this could drastically improve Decimators (esp RAC), because they could fly in circles, keeping their turret on the target and reducing any return fire they take in the process.  Decimators aren't exactly rocking the meta, though, and could use a bit of help anyway IMO.  And it's still perfectly possible for ships to catch them in a non-reinforced quadrant.

So that's my proposal... allow reinforce to add its evade results to attacks doing 2+ damage BEFORE rolling evade dice, and allow players to reinforce to the sides.  What do y'all think?

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As long as coordinate ships exist, the last thing we need is firesprays, Upsilons, VCXs, yv-666s and decimators rolling in even harder to kill once they get buffed again. A reinforced, perceptive copilot slave 1 Boba Fett is still very good, it's just that no one is playing it right now. . 

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55 minutes ago, Cloaker said:

As long as coordinate ships exist, the last thing we need is firesprays, Upsilons, VCXs, yv-666s and decimators rolling in even harder to kill once they get buffed again. A reinforced, perceptive copilot slave 1 Boba Fett is still very good, it's just that no one is playing it right now. . 

none playing boba + perceptv cp because it costs 94pts. closer to 100 by the time u add a talent/title/bomb

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, Da_Brown_Bomber said:

none playing boba + perceptv cp because it costs 94pts. closer to 100 by the time u add a talent/title/bomb

Lists like the one below are why we don't need reinforce buffed. Boba in a list like this where his wingmates can't be ignored would be devastating in the endgame if reinforce was even stronger. 

 

Boba Fett (86)
Trick Shot (2)
Perceptive Copilot (8)
Slave I (2)

L3-37 (26)
Tactical Officer (2)

Captain Seevor (30)

Serissu (40)
Heavy Laser Cannon (4)
Total: 200

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

Edited by Cloaker

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how about...

Boba Fett (86)    
    Trick Shot (2)    
    Qi'ra (2)    
    Slave I (2)    
    
Ship total: 92  Half Points: 46  Threshold: 5    
    
L3-37 (Escape Craft) (26)    
    Tactical Officer (2)    
    
Ship total: 28  Half Points: 14  Threshold: 2    
    
Ketsu Onyo (70)    
    Trick Shot (2)    
    Tobias Beckett (2)    
    Shadow Caster (6)    
    
Ship total: 80  Half Points: 40  Threshold: 5    
    
    
Total: 200    
    
View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Scum and Villainy&d=v6!s=200!103:133,,,55,,,,161:U.-1;95:,61,:;126:133,62,,,,160:&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

two tanky ships. buffs from trickshots and pretty nice obstacle manipulation with Tobias Beckett.

Ketsu fires first and puts a tractor token onto something to soften it up for Boba's attack.

boba still gets free focus from coordinate then can reinforce on his turn. Qi'Ra and Slave 1 makes him tricky to block.

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8 minutes ago, Da_Brown_Bomber said:

how about...

Boba Fett (86)    
    Trick Shot (2)    
    Qi'ra (2)    
    Slave I (2)    
    
Ship total: 92  Half Points: 46  Threshold: 5    
    
L3-37 (Escape Craft) (26)    
    Tactical Officer (2)    
    
Ship total: 28  Half Points: 14  Threshold: 2    
    
Ketsu Onyo (70)    
    Trick Shot (2)    
    Tobias Beckett (2)    
    Shadow Caster (6)    
    
Ship total: 80  Half Points: 40  Threshold: 5    
    
    
Total: 200    
    
View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Scum and Villainy&d=v6!s=200!103:133,,,55,,,,161:U.-1;95:,61,:;126:133,62,,,,160:&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

two tanky ships. buffs from trickshots and pretty nice obstacle manipulation with Tobias Beckett.

Ketsu fires first and puts a tractor token onto something to soften it up for Boba's attack.

boba still gets free focus from coordinate then can reinforce on his turn. Qi'Ra and Slave 1 makes him tricky to block.

Can also coordinate him a reinforce and have him clear the stress with a blue. :)

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2 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Can also coordinate him a reinforce and have him clear the stress with a blue. :)

true, i think im going to give this list a go at my LGS. ive been flying ketsu for a while and i like the control he adds. that mobile turret can swivel when in a pinch but hes pretty annoying just using fwd facing attacks and adding a tractor token here and there. the SC title is hard to pull off but its a nice counter to ships trying to block ketsu because he gets to tractor them into someones firing arc :) ketsu should be able to soak up some damage for boba to get to end game.

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I agree that Reinforce is a bit meh.

Good against alpha strikes weak against two die swarms.

I think reinforce would be marginally better if you could reinforce front, rear, Port or starboard (not sure if little spaceships would use those terms but I'm sure you know what I mean)

 

It doesn't make reinforce stronger, still only cancels a single damage to a minimum of 1. But gives the active player more control over the direction of deflector reinforcement.

 

Maybe only large base reinforce can be four directions while medium base is front and rear?

Either way @MikeEvans I agree Reinforce is rather uninspiring and think a little more power would help ships that have the action. I've used my YV's and Firesprays and only used it once or twice on a YV in one game, and I'd have been better of focusing.

 

I think my next ides is similar to 1.0 rebel Lowick ability but rather than reinforce adding an evade, what if during defense dice modification you could spend reinforce as an evade?

Not statistically as strong as permanently adding an evade but better than an evade action?

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, Scum4Life said:

Reinforce is ... Good against alpha strikes weak against two die swarms.

Heaven forbid we actually require players to analyse situations and decide when and where to put their actions to the best use. 🙄

Edited by DR4CO

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3 minutes ago, gadwag said:

Reinforce is still excellent against a TIE swarm. 6 TIEs at r2-3 are doing a maximum of 6 damage, not 12 damage.

A good case for using reinforce is against an 8x energy charge alpha strike Vulture swarm against a Decimator at range 3

That's 8 x 1.6 hits so roughly, 4 x 1 hits and 4 x two hits at range 1-2. This saves the decimator from 4 damage.

 

Or drea + Scurrg double tapping with ventral turrets somehow all alive and at range 1.

So that's 3x4 dice with focus + 3 x 3 dice + 1 x 3 dice with focus. And drea rerolls

So that's roughly 3 x 3 hits + 3 x 2 hits + 1 x 2.

This is pretty much best case scenario and saves 6 damage.

However these are rather rare cases and it's hard to get all attackers in the forward or rear arc.

Normally I find two reinforce saves me on a good game only 2-3 over the whole game.

 

For example YV-666 vs 6 tie swarm range three (when all ties are focused and in the same front arc)

6x2 with focus = (roughly) 4 x 2 hits + 2 x 1 hit

I have three defense/evade die, so during 6 defense rolls I could easily rolls an evade 3-4 times entirely negating the reinforce token. It's only slightly better at range 2 but I don't want to reinforce I want to focus and push damage onto my enemy.

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, DR4CO said:

Heaven forbid we actually require players to analyse situations and decide when and where to put their actions to the best use. 🙄

Haha fair enough, I certainly don't want an instant action, intact my initial suggestion of being able to choose from four quadrants to reinforce adds to the number of choices, but means more often than currently reinforce could be a viable choice. But certainly not all the time.

Edited by Scum4Life
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14 minutes ago, Scum4Life said:

I have three defense/evade die, so during 6 defense rolls I could easily rolls an evade 3-4 times entirely negating the reinforce token. It's only slightly better at range 2 but I don't want to reinforce I want to focus and push damage onto my enemy.

You could, but you might not. The reinforce is guaranteed, and guarantees are very strong in a dice game.

Any turn that reinforce prevents 1 damage, it's as good as evade. Any turn that it prevents 2 or more damage, it's better than an evade. Sure, you can't use reinforce to avoid all damage, but most reinforce ships have plenty of extra health.

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It would be cool and thematic if reinforce meant crits were cancelled first (in addition to its normal effect), but honestly that's far too much complexity (and probably too good) so it should stay how it is

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20 minutes ago, Scum4Life said:

A good case for using reinforce is against an 8x energy charge alpha strike Vulture swarm against a Decimator at range 3

That's 8 x 1.6 hits so roughly, 4 x 1 hits and 4 x two hits at range 1-2. This saves the decimator from 4 damage.

 

Or drea + Scurrg double tapping with ventral turrets somehow all alive and at range 1.

So that's 3x4 dice with focus + 3 x 3 dice + 1 x 3 dice with focus. And drea rerolls

So that's roughly 3 x 3 hits + 3 x 2 hits + 1 x 2.

This is pretty much best case scenario and saves 6 damage.

However these are rather rare cases and it's hard to get all attackers in the forward or rear arc.

Normally I find two reinforce saves me on a good game only 2-3 over the whole game.

 

For example YV-666 vs 6 tie swarm range three (when all ties are focused and in the same front arc)

6x2 with focus = (roughly) 4 x 2 hits + 2 x 1 hit

I have three defense/evade die, so during 6 defense rolls I could easily rolls an evade 3-4 times entirely negating the reinforce token. It's only slightly better at range 2 but I don't want to reinforce I want to focus and push damage onto my enemy.

Have you considered Lando Crew? In those matches where you don't have allot left to shoot at the ship when it activates he can spend it as if it was a lock of sorts. :)

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5 hours ago, MikeEvans said:

I feel like the Reinforce action is a bit lackluster.  Maybe the old version that always blocked 1 damage was too strong, but needing to take two damage for it to do any good is pretty harsh.  Esp. since, as far as I understand it, if you roll any evade dice, they take effect first, so rolling evades can actually turn off your ability.  (Example:  A defending reinforced Lambda is looking at damage results.  It rolls 1 evade result on its die and cancels one hit, so Reinforce does nothing)

I also don't understand why Reinforce only works on the front and back.  Why not the side arcs?  I remember a scene in one of the OT movies where Chewie was rotating the deflectors to defend against oncoming TIEs.  Why not allow Reinforce to bolster to the side?  New tokens could be printed, but it's not strictly necessary; one can just point the arrow of the token in the direction of the reinforcement.  I understand that this could drastically improve Decimators (esp RAC), because they could fly in circles, keeping their turret on the target and reducing any return fire they take in the process.  Decimators aren't exactly rocking the meta, though, and could use a bit of help anyway IMO.  And it's still perfectly possible for ships to catch them in a non-reinforced quadrant.

So that's my proposal... allow reinforce to add its evade results to attacks doing 2+ damage BEFORE rolling evade dice, and allow players to reinforce to the sides.  What do y'all think?

It does work on the side arcs, just not all of one at the same time.  I wonder if you're not realising what front means in context, because making it work on only one quadrant at a time would be a massive nerf to reinforce, not a buff.

 

The reason decis are not rocking the meta is because they all need way too many actions to be good.  Taking RAC as the example, he need to: Reinforce, Lock, preferably also Focus, and probably Rotate, every round.  He can get one of those actions per round, two with an expensive and stress imposing upgrade (on a ship with mediocre blues and a large base) that only works once he's at least a quarter dead, and three with another expensive upgrade that doesn't work until too late in the round to matter.  And he lost the ability to boost entirely, which was what made him a force to be reckoned with in 1e.

 

Ghosts are way better users of Reinforce (can take FCS, can get moderately cheap Force, better dial, has a K turn, but they're still catastropically overpriced, even wth the 4 die primary.  Ditto YVs as noted above, with Lando crew.

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@thespaceinvader

Yeah, perhaps I should have been clearer, I mean splitting the base through the middle, the entire left or right side, like we do for front and back.

And yes, Reinforce is clearly much better on 0 evade ships like than 1 or 2 die ships like the YV or Spray.

Making ships cheaper certainly makes th ey more playable, but I wish we had more control over where we could reinforce, making it easier to keep most enemy shots in the reinforced side (front, back, left or right)

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5 minutes ago, Scum4Life said:

@thespaceinvader

Yeah, perhaps I should have been clearer, I mean splitting the base through the middle, the entire left or right side, like we do for front and back.

And yes, Reinforce is clearly much better on 0 evade ships like than 1 or 2 die ships like the YV or Spray.

Making ships cheaper certainly makes th ey more playable, but I wish we had more control over where we could reinforce, making it easier to keep most enemy shots in the reinforced side (front, back, left or right)

I think your opponent should get a reward for out positioning you.

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1 hour ago, Hiemfire said:

Have you considered Lando Crew? In those matches where you don't have allot left to shoot at the ship when it activates he can spend it as if it was a lock of sorts. :)

Yeah Lando on the Slaver YV is a good way of making reinforce work, but the Slaver isn't amazing, still enjoyable to fly but not as sneaky as Moralo!

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