Jump to content

Recommended Posts

@jocke01

"I don't know if 15 wounds vs 7 and armor is equal or one is more durable. Then you gotta take in to account cover and treshold. I can concede the durability, but firepower and 3 activations that can hold objektives is a point for the troopers. 

My overall point is that the airspeeder dosen't have a clear battlefield role that other units can't do as well or better while costing less points and gives more activations. Durability is nice, but when you can't hold objectives I don't know if that alone makes the airspeeder worth taking. 

I Love the model and I try to make it work, however the games I won with a speeder I Always feel I won despite and not thanks to the speeder. When I lose, I would gladly taken more troops, more activations or Luke."

I think the T-47 has a very clearly defined role vis trooper units (or Luke). 

The 47 is the single fastest unit in the game and it has enough dice to potentially wipe a trooper unit in a single volley.

This gives it the latitude to start near objectives with light enemy forces, wipe them off the map and then zip over to the other half of the map and engage the enemy to help contest the other objectives by laying out dug in enemy units. (With it's speed and height, it's fairly easy to maneuver such that the enemy have no cover benefit at all). 

Trooper units just aren't fast enough (or durable enough) to do that same thing. You pretty much have to position them near the objective they're going for, or risk that they don't get to any objective at all.

I think the complaint about how it's expensive really misses the mark. It's expensive because it's brings capabilities held by no other unit in the Rebel portfolio, in a combination flatly superior to the units that do have a vaguely similar capability.

The 15 wounds are less durable in that every wound suffered reduces damage output by at least one black die (the 2nd to last wound for every unit presumably reduces it by 6 white dice). That's a lot of lost damage. More over, with the update to the RRG allowing repair of repulsor vehicles, the threat of losing a weapon from meeting the resilience cap can be negated entirely.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, Derrault said:

it has enough dice to potentially wipe a trooper unit in a single volley

This is a stupid point. For someone who relies on math to get his point across so often, I know you're well aware how unlikely that is to ever happen. Furthermore every corp, non strike team SF, 4 currently available commanders from both  current factions, every support, and every heavy can do this so it's not a particularly good selling point.

32 minutes ago, Derrault said:

This gives it the latitude to start near objectives with light enemy forces, wipe them off the map and then zip over to the other half of the map and engage the enemy to help contest the other objectives by laying out dug in enemy units. (With it's speed and height, it's fairly easy to maneuver such that the enemy have no cover benefit at all)

Cool you can kill 2 stormtroopers who are out of cover way ahead of your force, probably even less if you're approaching head on since they WILL be in some form of cover. With such a low time on target due to it's high speed, you aren't wiping a unit out.

39 minutes ago, Derrault said:

Trooper units just aren't fast enough (or durable enough) to do that same thing. You pretty much have to position them near the objective they're going for, or risk that they don't get to any objective at all.

Trooper units aren't, but RTs and eventually tauntauns are. And you can field multiple for better area coverage for about the same cost. If the enemy is really spread out as thin as you make them to be, flamer RTs do even better because of how limited the incoming fire will be due to it being split between two targets.

41 minutes ago, Derrault said:

I think the complaint about how it's expensive really misses the mark. It's expensive because it's brings capabilities held by no other unit in the Rebel portfolio, in a combination flatly superior to the units that do have a vaguely similar capability

Uniqueness doesn't make a unit good. Just because it does something that up until two weeks ago another rebel unit couldn't do doesn't validate it's cost. It's damage output is meh to bad as it needs to split fire to even try to hit the average you've been treating as a Holy Grail. As you've said before on this and previous threads: splitting fire is bad. So why are you ignoring that now when you've been so critical in the past about it. It's even worse because it's located out the rear of the vehicle and won't see use for 2 rounds of combat minimum, unless you're dumb enough to fly it straight into the enemy line round 1.

48 minutes ago, Derrault said:

The 15 wounds are less durable in that every wound suffered reduces damage output by at least one black die (the 2nd to last wound for every unit presumably reduces it by 6 white dice). That's a lot of lost damage. More over, with the update to the RRG allowing repair of repulsor vehicles, the threat of losing a weapon from meeting the resilience cap can be negated entirely

That's only when the unit is outside heavy cover. Any decent rebel player isn't going to be caught out of some form of cover unless they have to. Those wounds can also capture every objective in the game, something that the T47 struggles with even with the objectives it can contest due to it's compulsory move. The threat of losing it's precious dice is still there though, as it's mediocre attack can't afford to be gimped.

I really didn't want to get into this with you again, but then you threw out a bunch of bull and I couldn't resist.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, thepopemobile100 said:

This is a stupid point. For someone who relies on math to get his point across so often, I know you're well aware how unlikely that is to ever happen. Furthermore every corp, non strike team SF, 4 currently available commanders from both  current factions, every support, and every heavy can do this so it's not a particularly good selling point.

Cool you can kill 2 stormtroopers who are out of cover way ahead of your force, probably even less if you're approaching head on since they WILL be in some form of cover. With such a low time on target due to it's high speed, you aren't wiping a unit out.

Trooper units aren't, but RTs and eventually tauntauns are. And you can field multiple for better area coverage for about the same cost. If the enemy is really spread out as thin as you make them to be, flamer RTs do even better because of how limited the incoming fire will be due to it being split between two targets.

Uniqueness doesn't make a unit good. Just because it does something that up until two weeks ago another rebel unit couldn't do doesn't validate it's cost. It's damage output is meh to bad as it needs to split fire to even try to hit the average you've been treating as a Holy Grail. As you've said before on this and previous threads: splitting fire is bad. So why are you ignoring that now when you've been so critical in the past about it. It's even worse because it's located out the rear of the vehicle and won't see use for 2 rounds of combat minimum, unless you're dumb enough to fly it straight into the enemy line round 1.

That's only when the unit is outside heavy cover. Any decent rebel player isn't going to be caught out of some form of cover unless they have to. Those wounds can also capture every objective in the game, something that the T47 struggles with even with the objectives it can contest due to it's compulsory move. The threat of losing it's precious dice is still there though, as it's mediocre attack can't afford to be gimped.

I really didn't want to get into this with you again, but then you threw out a bunch of bull and I couldn't resist.

I mean, the average wounds is 2, and range is important to mention when the competition for the same is capped at no more than 3. And yeah, undamaged corps units throw enough dice, and then they get damaged in 1-2 rounds and don’t anymore.

Also, aside from Luke, which commander for Rebels does this? (On Imperials it’s just Vader and the Emperor, Am I missing someone?) And none of them do it at anything but short or point blank range.

The benefit of the airspeeders height and unmatched speed mean that it can easily move to negate cover, so the targets probably do not have cover, against the Speeder.

Wiping a unit out is nice, and a possibility every round thanks to lack of attrition, and, except for perhaps the split enemy scenario (where they have a single corps after some objectives) it’s not terribly crucial to one shot a unit, although it’s definitely a time saver. Either way, the engagement happens sooner, and the 47 is maneuverable enough that it can easily keep a single target in its field of fire.

RTs are no faster than trooper units, and have a worse save with no cover (making them that much less likely to stave off impact damage), they’re also susceptible to melee, and with the flamer kit they require minimum range to engage. And their hard points being mutually exclusive they are either good vs infantry (once they close range of course) OR good against vehicles, but not both. The 47 is useful against both infantry and vehicles. The Tauntaun looks fun, but its defenses don’t really exist until it activates, and its offense only really comes alive in melee.

I actually didn’t argue that split fire by a single unit is bad per se, but rather that splitting fire between multiple activations is what is bad. The former still allows for multiple suppression (which is good), and as long as you pick targets that aren’t in cover (again, fairly easy to do thanks to the 47s unique abilities) then there is no downside.

Splitting fire into multiple activations (such as 3 corps) is bad because you’re introducing additional risk that that fire is degraded before it even has a chance to activate and corps units rarely have the option of maneuvering to negate enemy cover. Meaning that cover is getting applied multiple times, and once sufficiency attrition is applied (enemy is reduced to 2/6 minis) the troopers are effectively dead already.

As I mentioned; the 47 is so fast there’s almost never a scenario where it can’t move around cover to find an unobstructed attack line. So, although I agree a prudent Rebel player would keep their corps to cover as often as possible, that’s no guarantee against the fastest units.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, lologrelol said:

But not flame throwers and grenades for some bizarre reason. lol

Flamethrowers are 1 or 2 dice depending on which one we mean (so, virtually immune) and both they and grenades are so short range the 47 never has to be threatened unless it chooses to do so. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, thepopemobile100 said:

I suppose you'd be the guy to ask. On a scale of 1-10, as an imperial player, how much of a threat do you rate an airspeeder

0. I thank my opponent for the win, and the two hour break they’ve given me.  

They’re just not good. The AT-ST I can work, especially with the new pilots. But competitively neither are going to make it very far at big events, it’s just that simple. We can throw numbers at it time and time again, but’s it’s usefulness on the table will be zilch unless it; A, gains sharpshooter, B, Gains pierce, and C, Loses 30 points. Until it does some combination of the three, it will continue to be the prettiest shelf piece in Legion. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, thepopemobile100 said:

I suppose you'd be the guy to ask. On a scale of 1-10, as an imperial player, how much of a threat do you rate an airspeeder

It depends. If it’s my brother playing then I know it should die pretty quick since he always throws it into the fray. Probably a 4/10

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/2/2019 at 8:26 PM, ABXY said:

What if the Hard point upgrades could shoot from the 'Sides' as well? 

(physically speaking, they look like they could traverse through that range of movement) 

 

And if that's not enough, what if they were simply not 'Fixed' at all?? 

 

i said this on another post that rear gun being all but front would make it better then you could at least line up a double arc shot and again blast key word would help   but fact that you cant use your guns together sucks  175

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/3/2019 at 8:14 PM, thepopemobile100 said:

I suppose you'd be the guy to ask. On a scale of 1-10, as an imperial player, how much of a threat do you rate an airspeeder

Zero. Every competent player would be in joy seeing the T47 across the table. It's the same points as 3 loaded trooper units, does and takes less damage and is 2 less activations. I would rather have 2 troopers than 1 T47.

It's still 40 points overpriced.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Thraug said:

Zero. Every competent player would be in joy seeing the T47 across the table. It's the same points as 3 loaded trooper units, does and takes less damage and is 2 less activations. I would rather have 2 troopers than 1 T47.

It's still 40 points overpriced.

3 loaded Rebel trooper units is 216 points, not 175. (237 for Stormtroopers).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, TalkPolite said:

You could change it to two full loaded Trooper units and still be correct XD

I mean, no not statistically. It was already studied than 3. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Derrault said:

3 loaded Rebel trooper units is 216 points, not 175. (237 for Stormtroopers).

No one will ever run the T47 without the Cover pilot, and no, 3 "loaded" Rebel Troopers in the competitive scene (Troopers + Z6) cost 186. T47 + Pilot = 185. Sorry, off by one point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, Thraug said:

No one will ever run the T47 without the Cover pilot, and no, 3 "loaded" Rebel Troopers in the competitive scene (Troopers + Z6) cost 186. T47 + Pilot = 185. Sorry, off by one point.

So, not actually loaded?

And with cover 2 the 47 becomes vastly more difficult to kill.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The T-47 is obviously rubbish. That said I have really enjoyed flying them (more the moving around part rather than the losing the game part). Now that they have access to cover 2 what is the best list that they can be run in?

Thinking as a pair with HQ uplink but that is a lot of points.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/4/2019 at 2:14 AM, thepopemobile100 said:

I suppose you'd be the guy to ask. On a scale of 1-10, as an imperial player, how much of a threat do you rate an airspeeder

In a tournament?

-4. Thank you so much for limiting your options with the T47 and  not bring rebel spam+wonder twins+snipers. It is just an easy win.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Senjius said:

In a tournament?

-4. Thank you so much for limiting your options with the T47 and  not bring rebel spam+wonder twins+snipers. It is just an easy win.

Are you privy to some source of tournament results showing the actual use of T-47s thus far?

Insofar as I am aware, we have essentially 0 data to support the claim that it’s not good in a tournament:

 LVO had exactly 7 out of 62 lists that even bothered to attempt a heavy, and in only 2 of those 7 lists were a 47.

NOVA? 0 lists of 32.

Adepticon? Any?

All that we know from the tournaments so far says is nobody is bothering to try it. That’s not the same thing as saying it’s ineffective.

And without knowing who the only 2 who bothered to bring to LVO played, we have zero inferences to be drawn on when it’s useful and when it’s not, what was effective and what wasn’t.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They’re not bringing it because it’s useless. We don’t need Tournament data to know it’s bad. 

From playing both days I saw zero, but I’m still waiting on one of my judges to finish the data roll up. Should be done soonish. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, TalkPolite said:

They’re not bringing it because it’s useless. We don’t need Tournament data to know it’s bad. 

From playing both days I saw zero, but I’m still waiting on one of my judges to finish the data roll up. Should be done soonish. 

That sounds akin to a similar situation in Football, where coaches are reluctant to do the statistically advantageous move on 4-1, but instead punt because that’s just what has always been done.

They’d rather lose a game, doing an orthodox move, even though victory pretty much is contained only in the unorthodox one.

And yeah, if you don’t have data to support it, you can’t say you really know anything at all. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...