# The T-47 Problem

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52 minutes ago, Derrault said:

@Hoffburger:
Snipers are the single most fragile unit in the game, bar none. (only 2 wounds with a white surge save averages 3 hits to get wiped off the board).
44 points per damage with a unit that fragile? Yeah, not great.

@Zrob314
Yeah, I agree the 1 damage goes through on targets without cover. The problem is that just 1 average damage per shot means they average 6 wounds per game. That's enough to kill a single unit not in cover, which is very low damage potential. (I think only the Rebel Officer has it worse, with no pierce and also averaging 1 hit with sharpshooter 1).

Even though the bare 47's efficiency per point is a marginal 2 points less than the strike team, the significantly higher damage cap mean it has the opportunity to swing games by deleting units and swing games.

The table's math isn't accurate for the combined values:
2 + 3.75 = 5.75; so the points per average damage with a buzzer is 195/5.75 = 33.91304347826087

Harpoon would be 40.6667 (so, still more efficient per point than the snipers, albeit mostly only effective on units in the open / vehicles)

You can't combine the buzzer/harpoon with the cannons because they are incapable of hitting the same target due to firing arcs and thus must be measured separately.

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1 hour ago, Zrob314 said:

You can't combine the buzzer/harpoon with the cannons because they are incapable of hitting the same target due to firing arcs and thus must be measured separately.

Even the the buzzers only cost 20 points, not 195.

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1 hour ago, Derrault said:

It’s (fairly simple) math. What fact is confusing you?

The fact that 2 wounds on a white surge die (blocks 1/3 of the time) = 3 effective wounds?

Or is it the low expected damage? Also, very easy to calculate.

The fact that it takes 2 shots minimum to kill the squad regardless of how many hits are scored. You could have a 100000 die dice pool with pierce 100 and blast and it wouldn't matter, it would still take 2 shots to kill the squad. What part about that is escaping your 400 IQ brain?

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Posted (edited)
1 minute ago, Hoffburger said:

The fact that it takes 2 shots minimum to kill the squad regardless of how many hits are scored. You could have a 100000 die dice pool with pierce 100 and blast and it wouldn't matter, it would still take 2 shots to kill the squad. What part about that is escaping your 400 IQ brain?

Well, no, actually if you can get line of sight to both, it’s potentially one shot. Remember, cohesion requires being within a legal speed-1 move distance.

Edit: Maybe you should reconsider your assumptions if you aren’t allowing for the potential to maneuver for the shot?

Also, so what if it can take two hits? That’s theoretically true for every unit in the game that uses multiple minis.

Edited by Derrault

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1 hour ago, Derrault said:

The fact that 2 wounds on a white surge die (blocks 1/3 of the time) = 3 effective wounds?

Sure, except at high level competitions only half the sniper strike team is ever visible. So 3 wounds becomes 1 effective wound.

That's what @Hoffburger was getting at.

Not to mention there's always 2-3 strike teams and most likely medical droids nearby.

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Derrault said:

Well, no, actually if you can get line of sight to both, it’s potentially one shot. Remem﻿ber, cohesion requires being within a legal speed-1 move distance. Remember, line of sight requires you to see both minis and attacking requires you to be in range of the enemy. Then you roll dice to see if you hit.

Edit: Maybe you should reconsider your assumptions if you aren’t allowing for the potential to maneuver for the shot? Pot: "Kettle, you're black." Kettle: "Cool story bro."

Also, so what if it can take two hits? That’s theoretically true for every unit in the game that uses multiple minis.﻿﻿ Commanders, Operatives, Vehicles, and Supports cannot guarantee they will survive a single shot. Strike teams can literally guarantee they require 2 shots to kill while also operating at full effectiveness. No other unit type can do the same thing. Sure some can corner peek, especially Flamer squads, but they will lose most of their damage in return and only save a usually meaningless leader.

I've yet to see a table where it is impossible to LoS hide snipers. If such a table even existed in competitive play, snipers would still be the best unit on that table.

Edited by Hoffburger

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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, Irokenics said:

Sure, except at high level competitions only half the sniper strike team is ever visible. So 3 wounds becomes 1 effective wound.

That's what @Hoffburger was getting at.

Not to mention there's always 2-3 strike teams and most likely medical droids nearby.

LOS, much like cover negation, can and should be achieved by maneuver.

The number of strike teams has no bearing on their individual fragility, and if you’re holding back an entire corps just to support them, then that needs to be factored into their cost (that’s a minimum of, what, 58 additional points for Rebels and 63 additional points for Imperials?)

edit: @Hoffburger a speed-1 move can be no further than a right-angle around terrain. At best, that’s 2 inches away from the unit leader.

So, when you play, what do you do about snipers? Nothing?

Edited by Derrault

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13 minutes ago, Derrault said:

LOS, much like cover negation, can and should be achieved by maneuver.

The number of strike teams has no bearing on their individual fragility, and if you’re holding back an entire corps just to support them, then that needs to be factored into their cost (that’s a minimum of, what, 62 additional points for Rebels and 68 additional points for Imperials?)

edit: @Hoffburger a speed-1 move can be no further than a right-angle around terrain. At best, that’s 2 inches away from the unit leader.

So, when you play, what do you do about snipers? Nothing?

You don't have to be at a right angle, could just be off to the side, which is 4 inches, not 2.

You tend to have a sniper war in the first 3 or so turns. That's what you do about them. It's so prevalent that people take medics to bring back the single sniper that dies, so it usually takes 3-4 shots just to take down a sniper squad these days competitively.

Also I corrected your point cost assumptions, but you should know the standard point costs for the most common units in the game...then again, you don't actually play, so I guess that makes sense.

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Posted (edited)
50 minutes ago, Derrault said:

Even the the buzzers only cost 20 points, not 195.

The problem is that just 1 average damage per shot means they average 6 wounds per game. That's enough to kill a single unit not in cover, which is very low damage potential. (I think only the Rebel Officer has it worse, with no pierce and also averaging 1 hit with sharpshooter 1).﻿

First: You have to figure the base cost of the unit into the calculation for any particular weapon.  So, Airspeeder (175) + Groundbuzzer (20) is 195.  The points efficiency of the average 2 damage ground buzzer is 97.5 points per damage.

2nd: "That's enough to kill a single unit not in HEAVY cover." Man, what could I kill with 6 unblockable damage over the course of the game?

Every single unit in the game except: Chewie, Wookiees, T-47, Darth, Vader, Bossk, IRGs, Occupier, AT-ST.  And I can do it from anywhere on the map.  That's 44 points that can kill 1/4+ of your army and if lucky could do it by round 3.

Edited by Zrob314

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22 minutes ago, Hoffburger said:

You don't have to be at a right angle, could just be off to the side, which is 4 inches, not 2.

You tend to have a sniper war in the first 3 or so turns. That's what you do about them. It's so prevalent that people take medics to bring back the single sniper that dies, so it usually takes 3-4 shots just to take down a sniper squad these days competitively.

Also I corrected your point cost assumptions, but you should know the standard point costs for the most common units in the game...then again, you don't actually play, so I guess that makes sense.

First off, the Rebel medical droid is 18 points, and a Rebel trooper unit is 40. 40 + 18 = 58

Second, the Imperial medical droid is 19 points, and Stormtroopers are 44. 44 + 19 = 63.

Third, I was being as favorable to your position as humanly possible by granting the most extreme angle, at 90 degrees. Anything less would be even easier to line up, the distance is utterly irrelevant to taking wounds.

Fourth, you’re stipulating that the Snipers are wasting 3/6 rounds mucking about with the enemy snipers, effectively contributing nothing at all? Really? And you think that’s a good investment of points? 😂

Good one, you had me really going this whole time, I really thought you were serious.

14 minutes ago, Zrob314 said:

First: You have to figure the base cost of the unit into the calculation for any particular weapon.  So, Airspeeder (175) + Groundbuzzer (20) is 195.  The points efficiency of the average 2 damage ground buzzer is 97.5 points per damage.

2nd: "That's enough to kill a single unit not in HEAVY cover." Man, what could I kill with 6 unblockable damage over the course of the game?

Every single unit in the game except: Chewie, Wookiees, T-47, Darth, Vader, Bossk, IRGs, Occupier, AT-ST.  And I can do it from anywhere on the map.  That's 44 points that can kill 1/4+ of your army and if lucky could do it by round 3.

Agreed, and the 47 has the height and the speed to easily walk around (or up to) and negate cover by seeing the entire base of the majority of the target minis.

Right, or any unit with a medic nearby to frustrate the snipers efforts? I don’t think a single Corps constitutes 1/4 of an army. Or do you mean if it somehow manages the full 18 wounds? By comparison any one of those corps units could deal as much damage as the snipers entire capacity by round 2.

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24 minutes ago, Derrault said:

First off, the Rebel medical droid is 18 points, and a Rebel trooper unit is 40. 40 + 18 = 58

Second, the Imperial medical droid is 19 points, and Stormtroopers are 44. 44 + 19 = 63.

Third, I was being as favorable to your position as humanly possible by granting the most extreme angle, at 90 degrees. Anything less would be even easier to line up, the distance is utterly irrelevant to taking wounds.

Fourth, you’re stipulating that the Snipers are wasting 3/6 rounds mucking about with the enemy snipers, effectively contributing nothing at all? Really? And you think that’s a good investment of points? 😂

Good one, you had me really going this whole time, I really thought you were serious.

Agreed, and the 47 has the height and the speed to easily walk around (or up to) and negate cover by seeing the entire base of the majority of the target minis.

Right, or any unit with a medic nearby to frustrate the snipers efforts? I don’t think a single Corps constitutes 1/4 of an army. Or do you mean if it somehow manages the full 18 wounds? By comparison any one of those corps units could deal as much damage as the snipers entire capacity by round 2.

So you don't play the game AND you don't read. Powerful combo you have there.

Nobody said you have to use the medics on the snipers, it's just a happy accident that medics are amazing on them. You can also recover things from almost 2' away with medic squads, so they don't need to stay back.

I'm not going to teach you how trigonometry works, but across the table, being around a corner doesn't matter, you just have to keep something blocking LoS on your second model.

Again, these are all things you would know if you actually played the game, but you very obviously don't. Hopefully none of the newer players take anything you say with any sort of credence, but I assure you that everyone who actually plays the game at a decent level is merely messing with you and laughing because you are

so hilariously and obviously out of your depth with everything you try to talk about.

Also, this is all besides the main point that the T-47 is completely overpriced for something that does such pitiful damage (especially vs. good saves) and dies extremely quickly for the cost.

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27 minutes ago, Hoffburger said:

So you don't play the game AND you don't read. Powerful combo you have there.

Nobody said you have to use the medics on the snipers, it's just a happy accident that medics are amazing on them. You can also recover things from almost 2' away with medic squads, so they don't need to stay back.

I'm not going to teach you how trigonometry works, but across the table, being around a corner doesn't matter, you just have to keep something blocking LoS on your second model.

Again, these are all things you would know if you actually played the game, but you very obviously don't. Hopefully none of the newer players take anything you say with any sort of credence, but I assure you that everyone who actually plays the game at a decent level is merely messing with you and laughing because you are

so hilariously and obviously out of your depth with everything you try to talk about.

Also, this is all besides the main point that the T-47 is completely overpriced for something that does such pitiful damage (especially vs. good saves) and dies extremely quickly for the cost.

So you don’t acknowledge that you “fixed” my numbers by given the wrong ones at 62 Rebel/68 Imperial when the actual numbers are 58/63? Telling.

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1 hour ago, Hoffburger said:

You don't have to be at a right angle, could just be off to the side, which is 4 inches, not 2.

You tend to have a sniper war in the first 3 or so turns. That's what you do about them. It's so prevalent that people take medics to bring back the single sniper that dies, so it usually takes 3-4 shots just to take down a sniper squad these days competitively.

Also I corrected your point cost assumptions, but you should know the standard point costs for the most common units in the game...then again, you don't actually play, so I guess that makes sense.

21 minutes ago, Derrault said:

So you don’t acknowledge that you “fixed” my numbers by given the wrong ones at 62 Rebel/68 Imperial when the actual numbers are 58/63? Telling.

Highlighted above to support your reading comprehension level.

I'll also spell it out for you just in-case you still don't understand (highly likely), the most common squads for Rebels and Imperials are Z6 and DLT squads which are 62 and 68 points respectively. These are the main backbone that "support" the snipers by preventing anything from getting anywhere near them.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Derrault said:

Agreed, and the 47 has the height and the speed to easily walk around (or up to) and negate cover by seeing the entire base of the majority of the target minis.

I don’t think a single Corps constitutes 1/4 of an army. Or do you mean if it somehow manages the full 18 wounds? By comparison any one of those corps units could deal as much damage as the snipers entire capacity by round 2.

Any unit CAN get around cover held by another unit, but just because they can doesn't mean that they will for all or even most shots.

The Emperor is 210 points without upgrades.  He has 5 hit points.

A sniper unit with dice luck can kill him by round three from across the board.

A sniper unit with average dice luck can kill him by round 5.

3 working in tandem can kill him in round 1.

Say goodbye to 1/4 of your army.  (yes I am taking into account that the emperor is immune to pierce)

Edited by Zrob314

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49 minutes ago, Hoffburger said:

Highlighted above to support your reading comprehension level.

I'll also spell it out for you just in-case you still don't understand (highly likely), the most common squads for Rebels and Imperials are Z6 and DLT squads which are 62 and 68 points respectively. These are the main backbone that "support" the snipers by preventing anything from getting anywhere near them.

Why would you waste additional points in a designated healbot? And no, that wasn’t made remotely clear in your post. Nor for that matter does what your saying make sense, since it would be the 62 points of a Z-6 PLUS the 18 points of the medic, for 80 points, or the 68 points of the DLT squad PLUS the 19 points for the imp medic for 87 points.

And in neither case is the standard point cost the same thing as an upgraded point cost, saying that is misleading, at best, and utter nonsense at worst if it doesn’t tack on the key element...the medic.

11 minutes ago, Zrob314 said:

Any unit CAN get around cover held by another unit, but just because they can doesn't mean that they will for all or even most shots.

The Emperor is 210 points without upgrades.  He has 5 hit points.

A sniper unit with dice luck can kill him by round three from across the board.

A sniper unit with average dice luck can kill him by round 5.

3 working in tandem can kill him in round 1.

Say goodbye to 1/4 of your army.  (yes I am taking into account that the emperor is immune to pierce)

Of course not, but I also might suggest that one would be better off if they forgo a shot on a given round in order to maneuver for a clean one.

With the Emperor, do you mean if he sits in the open and doesn’t have his IRG to soak some hits? (Or his own personal medic squad?)

I’m just trying to imagine the level of misplay where someone exposes their Emperor to 3 successive activations by Sniper units and never bothers to interpose LOS blocking terrain, or support him with other units. It just seems really really bad.

Also, with the expected number of hits (1) per strike team, and his expected percentage of saves (4/6) It’d take an average of 7.5 activations to kill him in a no cover situation. So, that’s round 3 assuming all 3 strike teams fire on him in the first two rounds and 2/3 fire in the third round. And, yeah, sure, if a sniper unit rolls well above average and gets two hits three activations in a row ‘and’ Palpatine improbably whiffs all but one over three rounds, it could kill him. Which is still actually less likely then a T-47 strafing him in a single activation because the red dice are more likely to hit than the no surge black dice, so...

why not just fly the 47 and theoretically get it done in one go?

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16 minutes ago, Derrault said:

why not just fly the 47 and theoretically get it done in one go?

Because of survival:

• The 3 sniper teams can make the shots whilst remaining in a better tactical position, to not suffer counter strikes.
• The flyer is much easier to see and it has to get close.
• Whilst the T-47 will be in a compromised position, often in range and LOS to multiple enemy units.
• The opponent can focus it down in one round.

Because of ease of use:

• The flyer requires maneuver of a large base around terrain to get into position.
• The teams are easy to move around cover, and can just be set up ready to go.
• Snipers have infinite range, and only need to be moved slightly to get the shot.

Because of ACTIVATIONS:

• 10+ activations wins games.
• Having the ability to delay, see where your opponent will move their important stuff, before you commit, is valuable to a commander.
• The cheap snipers enable a larger amount of activations.

In an activation based game, big expensive points sinks need to have exponential damage output beyond their base cost, to make up for reduced activations.

Mathematics alone will not determine utility in a battle with 3D terrain, LOS, and maneuver. This is because of the greater element of abstraction in such games, over things like boardgames, which heavily limit the boundaries of abstraction and creativity.

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6 hours ago, Qark said:

I need to stop before I have an aneurysm.

It's too late. Send help.

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1 hour ago, lologrelol said:

Because of survival:

• The 3 sniper teams can make the shots whilst remaining in a better tactical position, to not suffer counter strikes.
• The flyer is much easier to see and it has to get close.
• Whilst the T-47 will be in a compromised position, often in range and LOS to multiple enemy units.
• The opponent can focus it down in one round.

Because of ease of use:

• The flyer requires maneuver of a large base around terrain to get into position.
• The teams are easy to move around cover, and can just be set up ready to go.
• Snipers have infinite range, and only need to be moved slightly to get the shot.

Because of ACTIVATIONS:

• 10+ activations wins games.
• Having the ability to delay, see where your opponent will move their important stuff, before you commit, is valuable to a commander.
• The cheap snipers enable a larger amount of activations.

In an activation based game, big expensive points sinks need to have exponential damage output beyond their base cost, to make up for reduced activations.

Mathematics alone will not determine utility in a battle with 3D terrain, LOS, and maneuver. This is because of the greater element of abstraction in such games, over things like boardgames, which heavily limit the boundaries of abstraction and creativity.

So you wouldn’t commit 175 points to remove 210+ and up to three command cards turn 1?

Yes, it would be a higher risk play, but it’s also vastly higher reward than dithering for 3 rounds to not get the result because: Medics, Guardian, and Movement all easily would serve to undo the activations spent on Snipers.

I’m not saying that sending a 47 in on a suicide run to take out Palpatine is a good idea mind; I’m only saying it’s better than wasting 3 rounds, 9 combined activations, and 132 points minimum to try and achieve the same.

By the time the Snipers succeed, Palpatine could have used all three of his command cards and thrown who knows how many dice. Again, not a good idea, but also not as bad an idea as trying to sniper war.

Activations aren’t good or useful if you know they’re just being committed to a fools errand, like a silly sniper shootout that could take 3 rounds...or never get resolved because both sides are spending an absurd number of points keeping their snipers, who do nothing but take potshots at other snipers, alive with Medics.

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Posted (edited)

I think this thread have jumped the sarlacc. I think the main thing is still that the airspeeder can be effective, it's just to expensive to be worth it.

You don't lose when you bring it, you just do to little dmg for the huge amount of points you pay for a unit that can't interact with most objectives.

If it can kill strike teams or if it works based on math in theory is irrelevant, the fact stands that it could use a point decrease or offensive boost. Neither has happened yet.

Edited by jocke01

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2 hours ago, jocke01 said:

I think this thread have jumped the sarlacc. I think the main thing is still that the airspeeder can be effective, it's just to expensive to be worth it.

You don't lose when you bring it, you just do to little dmg for the huge amount of points you pay for a unit that can't interact with most objectives.

If it can kill strike teams or if it works based on math in theory is irrelevant, the fact stands that it could use a point decrease or offensive boost. Neither has happened yet.

The point of the math is that it demonstrates the 47 isn’t too expensive.

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1 hour ago, Derrault said:

The point of the math is that it demonstrates the 47 isn’t too expensive.

Maybe not for it's stats, but for it's impact on a match. Too little dmg output and can't interact with objectives