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everythingbagels

Player Compensation for Card Changes

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On 5/15/2019 at 4:16 PM, everythingbagels said:

 

Casual player, and I care :)

I'm probably asking for trouble, but... why?

Casual play means we can play as printed, draw on the cards with crayons, throw in some YuGiOh trap cards, and drink shots whenever we win a Water conflict. I'm not sure what the "stakes" are that errata needs to be followed.

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Posted (edited)

As far as I know casual play only means you either care more about having fun than being competitive and/or play sporadically. It doesnt mean you dont care about the game, or balance, or rule/card clarity, etc.

Just because you dont care (or dont care much) about statistics, curves, tournament winning decks, etc doesnt mean you dont care about the state of the rules

Edited by RafaelNN

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5 minutes ago, RafaelNN said:

As far as I know casual play only means you either care more about having fun than being competitive and/or play sporadically. It doesnt mean you dont care about the game, or balance, or rule/card clarity, etc.

Just because you dont care (or dont care much) about statistics, curves, tournament winning decks, etc doesnt mean you dont care about the state of the rules

I think its more for casual play you can easily just print out a sheet with the errata or even a "copy" of the errata card and paste it over your official one and go on with your life. 

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Haha, I appreciate the drinking game idea, and I don't see why you're asking for trouble--it's a fair question.

But I don't think this issue is black and white. There are probably casual players who care and those who don't. Competitive/hardcore players who care and those who don't. I'd say I'm in line with what Rafael is suggesting. I care about the rules, my collection, and the direction of the game, even if I never make it to a sanctioned event. I've put a lot of money into it, storage of it, protection of the cards, etc. 

I don't mind criticism, but there's quite a difference in expressing it and raising alternate points, versus attacking someone. But thank you for the apology.

I don't feel that it is about entitlement. It's about consumer protections, something I am passionate about. Here's how I see it: I gave FFG money for a product and they changed their end of the bargain post-transaction without offering any recourse. Further, we are paying the cost for their inability to adequately invest in playtesters. FFG is pushing the boundaries of this with an ever expansive restricted list and errata'd cards in their other games (Star Wars: Destiny that I know of). I don't expect any company to get it right 100% of the time--that's asking the impossible. But I do expect them to correct the issue in a way that puts their customers first, without whom they would not be in business. You don't pay the costs when your vehicle is recalled because of a safety defect.

I don't think reissuing cards with the updated text would really hurt their bottom line, not when they can offer promo cards for ordering the next cycle of cards directly from their website instead of supporting your LGS.

I totally understand that some of you aren't bothered by the changes, and that's okay! I'm not going to try and convince you that you should be. But I am, and if this becomes the norm for this game, I won't be able to keep supporting it. And I think it won't do FFG or the L5R franchise any favors when it comes to getting new players into the game.

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The harsh reality is that FFG is not obligated to do anything.  They don't have to have a RL.  They don't have to have competitive events.  They don't have to have spectacular art, or lore, or an rpg component, or even decent cards.  It's their IP, they can do with it what they want.   

However, they try their best to deliver a product that appeals to a majority of their target audience and if mistakes are made, they try to rectify it in a manner that is generally acceptable by the masses.

I see arguments being made that perfection is not expected, but, I see what is IMO, an excessive amount of whining considering the circumstances.  Calling this some sort of bait and switch on the part of FFG is ridiculous.  So if perfection isn't your expectation, what is?  To those that have a problem with this, I suspect those expectations might be unreasonable, but, I'm game for someone to explain why they think FFG is required to do more. 

Maybe you haven't been playing card games for the last 25 years.  If you had you might have noticed that things slip through.  When that happens there is banning or errata or some other form of correcting the issue in the competitive play environment, if one exists.  I've seen situations like this come up a lot with many different games and many different companies and FFG is nowhere near the worst offender. 

 

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10 hours ago, everythingbagels said:

I don't feel that it is about entitlement. It's about consumer protections, something I am passionate about.

Here's how I see it: I gave FFG money for a product and they changed their end of the bargain post-transaction without offering any recourse.

Further, we are paying the cost for their inability to adequately invest in playtesters.  I don't expect any company to get it right 100% of the time--that's asking the impossible. But I do expect them to correct the issue in a way that puts their customers first, without whom they would not be in business. You don't pay the costs when your vehicle is recalled because of a safety.

I disagree, it is about entitlement.  You are demanding a level of legal protection from things outside of anyone’s control to insulate you from any risk whatsoever, and expecting the company to take all the risks in your place, oblivious to the fact that companies entities are made up of fallible people who can’t foresee every outcome and take huge risks in bringing products to market that may fail and cost the lively good of dozens, hundreds, or thousands of people.

Should car makers cover the cost of life-threatening recalls?  Yes.  Should Card game companies cover the cost of constantly giving away free updates to a game that by its nature WILL change and is advertised as such?  No.

There was no “bargain”.  That’s ridiculous.  That’s the same as people who complain that their product is cheaper now than it was last month.  No, you don’t deserve compensation for that.  You bought a functional product, and by its very nature it will require rules updates, which FFG provides for free.

You keep saying that the problem is a lack of willingness to spend money on “adequate” playtesting.  I’m wondering what actual expertise/evidence you have that this is the case, beyond your own selfish (that’s not name-calling, I just mean “self-motivated”) motives for wanting to enjoy a game as cheaply as possible at the expense of the designers/owners without whom it wouldn’t exist in the first place.

I believe FFG could afford to offer free card reprints for L5R - although I’m not sure why they should be forced to pay that cost.

 

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FFG doesn't have to offer tournaments or rules updates, sure, but they have a vested interest in selling their product and these things help keep interest alive. If they didn't serve that purpose, call me crazy, but I don't think we'd see them. 

Ishi, I think altering text is where I draw the line. The restricted list didn't bother me, some soft/invisible errata (like tattoos not being able to target enemy units) was fine, but I haven't seen anything like these changes before. Well, I have, in Hearthstone. I've played mostly Magic and Hearthstone. I've never seen these changes in Magic. In Hearthstone it happens, but it has the benefit of being a digital game. I think I've laid out my reasoning in the post. I also don't think these alterations will be the last. Someone in the discord suggested that after they make enough changes, they'll release an "errata pack" which struck me as funny but also not impossible. How many changes until it becomes too burdensome or unreasonable? Maybe I'm wrong and these will be the only text changes in L5R LCG's lifespan, but seeing as how FFG finds the practice acceptable and uses it in their other games, I really doubt it.

We take opposing viewpoints of consumer protections Kani, and that's fine. I say that's a big reason regulation exists, because if every company could get away with that absolute reasoning they would. We sold you water that was poisoned, there was no bargain beyond transaction that stipulated the water had to be potable. You agree that car companies should pay for safety recalls, but not companies that functionally alter their product afterwards. So there's a line somewhere we'd both agree to, but I don't think we'll find it (and really, who cares, as I didn't originally post this to go into a debate of any sort). You can shutdown my opinion by just calling me entitled or saying that I'm whining if you want, but at the end of the day, it doesn't mean much to me. I've stated how I feel, tried to offer why, and that's that.

Comparing this issue to price changes is unfair as that's an entirely different mechanism of the market. I would agree that anyone who buys a product at one price and later wants reimbursement for a new, lower price is definitely out of touch with capitalism. As Elon asked one such individual, if Tesla prices increase, will previous buyers cut him a check? Not likely.

 

 

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2 hours ago, everythingbagels said:

Ishi, I think altering text is where I draw the line. The restricted list didn't bother me, some soft/invisible errata (like tattoos not being able to target enemy units) was fine, but I haven't seen anything like these changes before. Well, I have, in Hearthstone. I've played mostly Magic and Hearthstone. I've never seen these changes in Magic.

You weren't around for Llorwyn block I see.

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Magic has actually changes text on their paper product as recently as there last set.....soley for the purpose of making a card easier to play in Arena.

Since FFG does not like to ban then they will sometimes have to errata because putting everything on the RL is effectively banning, which goes against their protocol.

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On 5/17/2019 at 10:44 AM, Iuchi Toshimo said:

I'm probably asking for trouble, but... why?

Casual play means we can play as printed, draw on the cards with crayons, throw in some YuGiOh trap cards, and drink shots whenever we win a Water conflict. I'm not sure what the "stakes" are that errata needs to be followed.

Dude. "Casual play" doesn't mean you can do whatever the heck you want. We still want structure, balance, and a good game. Implying casual players don't care about rules and errata is, frankly, a bit insulting to what I suspect is a majority of the fanbase.

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3 hours ago, twinstarbmc said:

Dude. "Casual play" doesn't mean you can do whatever the heck you want. We still want structure, balance, and a good game. Implying casual players don't care about rules and errata is, frankly, a bit insulting to what I suspect is a majority of the fanbase.

Casual play does means that. However, you have inferred something from my reductio ad absurdum that I did not imply. I insult no one who plays this game. Play the game as strictly or as loosely as pleases you and your friends. In casual play, printing the errata on a slip of paper and cramming it in the sleeve seems sufficient, as another poster mentioned. In a tournament setting, please know all the rules and errata so that some sleeves are not thicker.

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There is no implied contract with this game.  FFG sold a pack of cards, as is.  We bought it and received said pack of cards.  If you don't like it now, don't buy more.

However, I would like to bring up this.  If, for example, they had banned Tadaka instead of errata'ing him, would you be having this argument?  Would you be demanding that you get your 50-75 cents (Assuming US $ and a couple other things) back?  This is FFG's effort to maintain value in the product they sold you, both on the individual card level as well as maintaining the health overall of all of the L5R LCG Products.

I don't disagree that the Tadaka change isn't obnoxious to work around, however it allows players to continue playing a card that banning him would not.

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16 hours ago, Iuchi Toshimo said:

Casual play does means that. However, you have inferred something from my reductio ad absurdum that I did not imply. I insult no one who plays this game. Play the game as strictly or as loosely as pleases you and your friends. In casual play, printing the errata on a slip of paper and cramming it in the sleeve seems sufficient, as another poster mentioned. In a tournament setting, please know all the rules and errata so that some sleeves are not thicker.

Being a casual only means that you don't use meta lists or compete at tournaments. From my experience even casual players will adopt the official balance changes and role mechanic after a short amount of time, especially if they have a group they regularly play with.

On ‎5‎/‎18‎/‎2019 at 7:49 AM, Kani Kantai said:

I disagree, it is about entitlement.  You are demanding a level of legal protection from things outside of anyone’s control to insulate you from any risk whatsoever, and expecting the company to take all the risks in your place, oblivious to the fact that companies entities are made up of fallible people who can’t foresee every outcome and take huge risks in bringing products to market that may fail and cost the lively good of dozens, hundreds, or thousands of people.

Should car makers cover the cost of life-threatening recalls?  Yes.  Should Card game companies cover the cost of constantly giving away free updates to a game that by its nature WILL change and is advertised as such?  No.

There was no “bargain”.  That’s ridiculous.  That’s the same as people who complain that their product is cheaper now than it was last month.  No, you don’t deserve compensation for that.  You bought a functional product, and by its very nature it will require rules updates, which FFG provides for free.

You keep saying that the problem is a lack of willingness to spend money on “adequate” playtesting.  I’m wondering what actual expertise/evidence you have that this is the case, beyond your own selfish (that’s not name-calling, I just mean “self-motivated”) motives for wanting to enjoy a game as cheaply as possible at the expense of the designers/owners without whom it wouldn’t exist in the first place.

I believe FFG could afford to offer free card reprints for L5R - although I’m not sure why they should be forced to pay that cost.

 

Consuming is always about entitlement. When buying and/or using something, everyone has certain expectations about it. The expectation that a company provides me with changed cards when buying into a competitive card game is certainly not far fetched, given that other companies do that. Is this expectation enough to warrant a refund, because the product is broken? Certainly not. And nobody argued that they sould be forced (by law) to do so. But printing "fixed" version as a bonus in future products as a sign of good will seems reasonable.

 

13 hours ago, Mirith said:

There is no implied contract with this game.  FFG sold a pack of cards, as is.  We bought it and received said pack of cards.  If you don't like it now, don't buy more.

Why isn't initiating a discussion in an official forum not a valid act if you don't like certain aspects of a product?

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4 hours ago, Ignithas said:

Why isn't initiating a discussion in an official forum not a valid act if you don't like certain aspects of a product?

We can supply feedback and express ourselves yes, but my point is that they are under no obligation to do more.  There are reasons for them to do more, just they aren't obligated.  They aren't even obligated to have a forum or read them, it is just as a courtesy to the players.  The OP is declaring that FFG has violated some sort of implied contract between the player by changing how cards work.  I'm just countering that point.

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On 5/18/2019 at 1:58 PM, everythingbagels said:

I've never seen these changes in Magic.

Really? WotC has outright banned cards. So what, they owe me a card now? Cause I bought a 15 cards booster but now I can only use 14 of them.

And they have errata’ed cards. And yes, they’ve reprinted the cards with the errata in the next cycles (sometimes), but you still have to buy them, they’re not free.

So yeah, I don’t think is that big an issue, and certainly not something that would make somebody outright quit the game, or worsen their game experience. 

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Well, I guess I am out of the loop on Magic, I quit playing a while ago! But I never saw straight text changes when I did play. Banning didn't bother me personally when it was warranted, although I get the counterpoint that it is more offensive than changing the text. I guess banning bothered me less because formats were established and as a primarily standard/limited  (and extended once I had been playing long enough) player, I knew the card would be out in a couple years anyway. Although I don't think anyone was happy with the amount of banning that happened during the Urza cycle..

I don't think I suggested FFG was obligated to issue updated cards and I am sorry if I seemed to imply it. My point was them doing it simply for the sake of our benefit, aka doing their customers a solid. As I've stated, I understand they can do as they please. But I think a company's actions matter more in a smaller community such as this one, with me assuming that they can afford to turn customers away less than a game with a larger following. Also, just to restate, yes I agree keeping the game balanced is healthy, my concern is the method.

Happy to see the kind of discussion I envisioned finally take off, thanks to everyone for their input. 

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If you ask me, we only need 3 cards that were hit the hardest, and by that I mean: Isawa Tadaka, City of the Open Hand, and Restoration of Balance .
Since those cards got their whole effect completely changed.
Problem is especially when introducing new players (since somehow most of them pick scorp) and then we have to go like remember for the 15th time its not what it says on card.
Personally I think it would be ok to put 1 card within packs of cycle and to obtain them like that, or ****, even making a print on demand pack that has to be bought...
(if they did it with keyforge cards they can do it here also)

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