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everythingbagels

Player Compensation for Card Changes

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Hello,

I am posting to gather ideas and solicit feedback for the recent changes made to cards in the article https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2019/4/29/shifting-the-heavens/?fbclid=IwAR0Tx2sRCkrJoLtHNnONAZVXztrJoQGWVbqAp63nVx3iTJe2oXCMNRtPkoU

While restricting cards certainly becomes necessary to improve design space, we now have cards we purchased that no longer do what they say. Regardless of whether or not you agree with these changes, they have been made in order to maintain a healthy state of the game and that is fact. My main concern is how will FFG follow up on this for the sake of players? In my opinion, in a world where FFG puts the players first, an "errata pack" of fixed cards would be issued for free to whomever requests one, one per person/household/however they want to do it. 

But that's my opinion. Given their possible inclusion in a core set 2.0 or deluxe core set re-release, that feels like an option that shows no value in the players as that is essentially forcing us to re-buy cards that for whatever reason made it past playtesting the way they were.

What are your opinions? What do you think the best way to handle this is? Please consider the implications for dedicated, semi-casual, casual players and anyone in-between.

If FFG has already issued some announcement regarding how they plan to handle this, please link it here as I have not seen it, thanks!

 

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They've never historically done this, but also historically they were less willing to errata card text for this reason.  I think it's definitely a good thing they did this in a competitive gave.  They need to address the toxicity in the card pool.  Something like this needs to happen in an LCG since we don't have nice hard resets like a CCG would. 

I would buy an errata pack after each FAQ update for the convenience to be honest.  Also it would be cool if they threw errata-ed cards into OP kits as promo prizes to flush out the old cards that way.  I'm not holding my breath for either.  I'm still waiting for them to fix the barrier of entry problem the game already has considering the mountain of products a new player has to buy to get into this game competitively.  That some cards are errata-ed is annoying but a much lesser issue to the long term health of the game, and the toxicity needed to be addressed. 

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Erratad cards might come out if a new core is issued after the first rotation similarly to what happened in netrunner, right?

I dont think they will do anything. I dont think theyvcan do anything either. If they release "errata packs" then some people will complain they are "forced" to buy something to keep playing/use what theyve already payed for/whatever. Also, promo cards already printed would become useless and thats another bunch of sad people.

If they insert them in card packs, then some people will complain about having to pay for cards they already payed for/ veing confused by too many of the same cards being around with different texts/whatever, or that reprints are taking up space for new cards.

And asking them for free isnt realistic or reasonable either so theres that.

Im of the opinion the best wolutiin is to use the ones you have and be at peace with that. Most prople know how the cards work anyeay and identify them by art. If the textnl matters for some particular case or interaction, then you the rules should be involved in that anyway

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FFG has done this to a very small degree in the past for games I own: Elder sign- in an expansion they gave you an updated version of a card from the core, Imperial Assault- updated in the form of promos, and Lord of Rings LCG- again, an updated card from I believe in a saga or deluxe expansion from a previous saga or deluxe. 

Of course, this is maybe 6 or 7 cards from 3 games with hundreds if not thousands of cards. But L5R has had many cards that received errata already, not just 2 or 3, but it isn't unprecedented. However, you almost always had to buy something to get something. How about throwing us a bone by putting them in their clan packs? 

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 I'm still waiting for them to fix the barrier of entry problem the game already has considering the mountain of products a new player has to buy to get into this game competitively.

Pretty hard to do for LCGs in general unfortunately. LCGs have the advantage of being cheaper over time than CCG, but they create a heck of a barrier to entry.

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2 hours ago, HouseofCards said:

DELETE THIS

I agree - this is classic trolling, like that guy who always complains about unique games being gambling.  Long post, seems reasonable in tone, then never responds to anything people say.  Let this thread sink.

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I also dislike anyone who creates an account to attack and does not have the guts to post under his proper account.

Perhaps it is that rarity - a fan of the game who has never posted and has an issue. but I doubt it. 

Let's just ignore the whining and  move on with the game.

 

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I am 100% not trolling, this was not a joke post, and this is my only account. This is my first LCG and I don't like decisions like this that FFG is making. That's great you can accept it, but if you believe I'm not allowed to find fault in FFG selling us cards and literally changing what they do with not a word of making it right, then I guess that's what allows companies like FFG to make decisions without putting their customers first.

Again, I'm perfectly fine with rebalancing cards for the health of the game. I'm not okay with them leaving out any sort of compensation as part of that process.

The toxicity of some of your responses is definitely enough to put me off of the game. Is this what I should expect if I ever dared go to an official event? I had a pretty cordial discussion about this in the L5R discord, but I guess I should have expected more hostility from those on the FFG forums. Thank you to those who were decent enough not to attack a fellow player of the game we enjoy for raising an issue of concern.

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40 minutes ago, everythingbagels said:

The toxicity of some of your responses is definitely enough to put me off of the game. Is this what I should expect if I ever dared go to an official event? I had a pretty cordial discussion about this in the L5R discord, but I guess I should have expected more hostility from those on the FFG forums. Thank you to those who were decent enough not to attack a fellow player of the game we enjoy for raising an issue of concern.

A small handful of people in these forums in no way displays the overall awesomeness of the wider L5R community. 
It's easy to be snarky here, when there is zero moderation.

I imagine the actual level of toxicity is the same here and in Discord, but the greater number of posts on Discord means the overall positivity more easily drowns out the negative.

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7 hours ago, everythingbagels said:

I am 100% not trolling, this was not a joke post, and this is my only account. This is my first LCG and I don't like decisions like this that FFG is making. That's great you can accept it, but if you believe I'm not allowed to find fault in FFG selling us cards and literally changing what they do with not a word of making it right, then I guess that's what allows companies like FFG to make decisions without putting their customers first.

Again, I'm perfectly fine with rebalancing cards for the health of the game. I'm not okay with them leaving out any sort of compensation as part of that process.

The toxicity of some of your responses is definitely enough to put me off of the game. Is this what I should expect if I ever dared go to an official event? I had a pretty cordial discussion about this in the L5R discord, but I guess I should have expected more hostility from those on the FFG forums. Thank you to those who were decent enough not to attack a fellow player of the game we enjoy for raising an issue of concern.

I think you make a valid point. Including the erratad cards into future packs as extra cards (as some companys already do) would be ideal, but FFG doesn't operate like that. There is a very real chance that we get promos with the right text and future printings of the product will probably be printed with the erratad versions.

PS: I don't get why a significant portion of the community tries to gatekeep the game when critic is expressed. Don't let this discourage you, I and probably a lot of other people see things in a similar light.

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Posted (edited)

On a more constructive point, I kind of wished they allowed proxies for cards that have been errata'd, throwing up an updated print to play version on their website. It's an LCG and won't sink the value of the card if it's "free". From a business standpoint, I understand why they wouldn't obviously. Still, seems silly that they think they might lose a sale because some guy out there is going: "Whew, I don't have to buy the Phoenix pack anymore, Tadaka can be proxied! Eat it, FFG!"

That said, if enough cards are errata'd (and free in this method), it might invalidate a pack potentially.

Edited by Hordeoverseer

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1 minute ago, Hordeoverseer said:

On a more constructive point, I kind of wished they allowed proxies for cards that have been errata'd, throwing up a print to play version on their website. It's an LCG and won't sink the value of the card if it's "free". From a business standpoint, I understand why they wouldn't obviously. Still, seems silly that they think they might lose a sale because some guy out there is going: "Whew, I don't have to buy the Phoenix pack anymore, Tadaka can be proxied! Eat it, FFG!"

That said, if enough cards are errata'd (and free in this method), it might invalidate a pack potentially.

Y'know, as long as you can prove you own the card anyway, I'd be perfectly ok with proxies.

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7 minutes ago, twinstarbmc said:

Y'know, as long as you can prove you own the card anyway, I'd be perfectly ok with proxies.

I guess there's probably where the difficulty might arise in tournaments. Questions like: Does the player have to show the real card behind the proxy or keep a play set sleeved to show his opponents? Can you disqualify someone for not owning the card?

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Posted (edited)

I mean if you could just print out the bottom half of the proxy and cut it to cover the text box inside the sleeve.  No need to cover the art and that proves you have the card.  I wonder if that would be acceptable in an official event. 

Edited by phillos

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2 hours ago, phillos said:

I mean if you could just print out the bottom half of the proxy and cut it to cover the text box inside the sleeve.  No need to cover the art and that proves you have the card.  I wonder if that would be acceptable in an official event. 

I wouldn't be okay with this, as a victim of opponents cheating in the past.  In the higher levels of Old5R competitive play, essentially everyone knew the errata, but I'd bring a sheet with the errata printed just in case a newer player or a judge needed to see them and for some reason couldn't access the info themselves. It was never necessary.

I'm not sure why all the hubbub from some folks. Casual play doesn't care. Competitive play should know the rules and the rules changes. Updated/Alt Art card would be neat, but they might wait and see if the changes are actually any good, since they might change them again or revert the changes. With alt printings floating around, that's when true confusion would set in.

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Still, people know the cards, and most of the time you identify what they do by tje art rather than the text. If the later matters for some reason and you *need* to know what the card does, you can take put an errata (I mean if youre at the point where you need to see the exact text, you ññ probably also need to consult the rules for interactions and such anyway)

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16 hours ago, Iuchi Toshimo said:

I wouldn't be okay with this, as a victim of opponents cheating in the past.  In the higher levels of Old5R competitive play, essentially everyone knew the errata, but I'd bring a sheet with the errata printed just in case a newer player or a judge needed to see them and for some reason couldn't access the info themselves. It was never necessary.

I'm not sure why all the hubbub from some folks. Casual play doesn't care. Competitive play should know the rules and the rules changes. Updated/Alt Art card would be neat, but they might wait and see if the changes are actually any good, since they might change them again or revert the changes. With alt printings floating around, that's when true confusion would set in.

Cheaters gonna cheat regardless of if they bring a doctored piece of paper with errata on it or if they print that same text out and put it on the card.

I never understood intentionally cheating in an LCG.  I remember famously the first Worlds for Conquest had a cheater at the final table.  I don't understand why you'd do that considering the only thing on the line is a sense of achievement and recognition.  The recognition will ensure you'll be found out as a fraud eventually and the achievement would be hollow since you know you cheated.  I guess you also get some prizes, but those prizes don't offset the usual cost to attend these events.

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I think it was Conquest Nationals, not Worlds, but, cheating on a card game with no actual prizes just shows you how fragile a person's ego can be.  That the cheater also made a dummy account on the forums to defend himself was even more sad.

I can understand the pressure to cheat when there are real cash prizes in the line.  I still think it's deplorable.  MTG had a pretty recent issue with a high profile player that resulted in them getting kicked out of their hall of fame.  

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On 5/14/2019 at 12:50 AM, everythingbagels said:

I am 100% not trolling, this was not a joke post, and this is my only account. This is my first LCG and I don't like decisions like this that FFG is making. That's great you can accept it, but if you believe I'm not allowed to find fault in FFG selling us cards and literally changing what they do with not a word of making it right, then I guess that's what allows companies like FFG to make decisions without putting their customers first.

Again, I'm perfectly fine with rebalancing cards for the health of the game. I'm not okay with them leaving out any sort of compensation as part of that process.

The toxicity of some of your responses is definitely enough to put me off of the game. Is this what I should expect if I ever dared go to an official event? I had a pretty cordial discussion about this in the L5R discord, but I guess I should have expected more hostility from those on the FFG forums. Thank you to those who were decent enough not to attack a fellow player of the game we enjoy for raising an issue of concern.

1) Ok, you say you aren’t trolling.  I’ll take you at your word.  You fit the profile I’ve seen in the past, I shouldn’t have jumped to conclusions.  I apologise.

2) You did ask for feedback, so expect some of it to be negative, especially when you are suggesting that you deserve compensation for a game company editing their “Living” game.  I hates the compensation culture, so it probably triggered me.  My bad.

3) Yes, if you showed up at an event and your first interaction with anyone was to start saying you deserved compensation for game errata I’d probably give you the cold shoulder.

 

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