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Thatbillmanguy

Fleet Build help. My opponent always uses small ships with black dice to murder me.

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He's imperial next time (400 points). And I have one of everything in the game. Only doubles for the Rebels that I have are 1 extra CR90, and 2 extra Nebulon Bs. (I have three of every squadron pack) So what's a good list to counter this tactic? I expect probably an Avenger ISD with two black dice Gladiators, a Gozanti feeding tokens, and a ton of upgrades letting him add dice and re-roll the black ones, with counter measures. Even if that's NOT what he ends up bringing, I'd like a list to counter that.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/1/2019 at 2:20 PM, Thatbillmanguy said:

He's imperial next time (400 points). And I have one of everything in the game. Only doubles for the Rebels that I have are 1 extra CR90, and 2 extra Nebulon Bs. (I have three of every squadron pack) So what's a good list to counter this tactic? I expect probably an Avenger ISD with two black dice Gladiators, a Gozanti feeding tokens, and a ton of upgrades letting him add dice and re-roll the black ones, with counter measures. Even if that's NOT what he ends up bringing, I'd like a list to counter that.

Since black dice ships usually want to close quickly and end you before you can shoot back, a good general answer is Rieekan. Avoid bringing things that a Gladiator can 1-shot.  The MC75 is great because it’s acceptably durable, can bring its own ordnance for brawling, has the Aspiration title to live longer and is a good platform for Damage Control Officer.  Landmonition can also cancel crit effects quite well and is fast enough to escape after dishing out some pain.

For a different approach, Norra Wexley and a pile of bombers (probably including an X-wing escort and definitely Jan Ors for Intel and survivability) can eat through undefended ships quite quickly while allowing you to play your carriers defensively.

Raddus can deny them the chance to land that devastating shot they want; if you drop in a position to kill something important and escape intact with a lot of points, you’re probably going to win.

Slicer tools punishes squadronless lists by giving them useless squadron commands while padding your activation count with flotillas.  In addition to making first lasting harder, they’ll probably have a hard time generating accuracies to lock the scatter down.

In general, when they close, speed up; this means you’re spending less time close to them, which can make a big difference.  Watch out for getting boxed in.

Here’s one list idea using Norra and Rieekan, but it depends on which direction you want to go.  It has two flotillas; I highly recommend getting a second.  Hope this helps.

 

Name: Untitled Fleet
Faction: Rebel
Commander: General Rieekan

Assault: Most Wanted
Defense: Fighter Ambush
Navigation: Superior Positions

GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
• Bomber Command Center (8)
• Boosted Comms (4)
= 30 Points

GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
= 18 Points

Pelta Command Ship (60)
• General Rieekan (30)
• Hondo Ohnaka (2)
• All fighters, Follow Me! (5)
• Boosted Comms (4)
= 101 Points

MC75 Ordnance Cruiser (100)
• Damage Control Officer (5)
• Ordnance Experts (4)
• Electronic Countermeasures (7)
• Assault Concussion Missiles (7)
• External Racks (3)
• Aspiration (3)
= 129 Points

Squadrons:
• Gold Squadron (12)
• Jan Ors (19)
• Norra Wexley (17)
• 3 x X-wing Squadron (39)
• Keyan Farlander (20)
• B-wing Squadron (14)
= 121 Points

Total Points: 399

Edited by The Jabbawookie

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Ok, Thanks for your info! Based on it, here's what I came up with (reason why I did such and such I'll add after the list)

Name: Rieekan's Rebels
Faction: Rebel
Commander: General Rieekan

Assault: Most Wanted
Defense: Fighter Ambush
Navigation: Superior Positions

 

GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
• Bomber Command Center (8)
• Boosted Comms (4)

• Bright hope (2)
= 32 Points

 

CR-90 Corvette B (39)
• Jaina's Light (2)
• SW-7 Ion Batteries (5)

= 46 Points

 

Pelta Command Ship (60)
• General Rieekan (30)
• All fighters, Follow Me! (5)
• Boosted Comms (4)
= 99 Points

 

MC75 Ordnance Cruiser (100)
• Ordnance Experts (4)
• Electronic Countermeasures (7)
• Assault Concussion Missiles (7)
• External Racks (3)
= 121 Points

 

Squadrons:
• Jan Ors (19)
• 3 x X-wing Squadron (39)
• 3 x YT-1300 Squadron (39)
= 97 Points

Total Points: 395

My reasoning was to swap out a flotilla for a CR90 that I can hide behind either the Pelta or the MC-75 and it'll take shots and not miss.

The YT-1300s are nice for hanging up his squadrons for a while, taking damage and countering - while my X-Wings go around and bomb, following the flotilla or pelta. Jan Ors can go with either group, but will probably stay with the YT-1300s holding up his other squadrons and letting them brace, while using intel to free up the X-Wings.

I'm not sure if Aspiration would be useful for me yet. I think it would require me to know how exactly I'm going to fly the cruiser and where it'll be every turn. The extra hull hells me feel more confident about getting it up close, though. Hondo I don't see how he's useful. I have 5 points left, I could throw the Damage control officer back on, especially for black dice. But then I lose my bid initiative. Do I really need it, though?

But maybe I'm wrong on all of this. Feel free to point out flaws in this. That's how I learn.

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Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, Thatbillmanguy said:

My reasoning was to swap out a flotilla for a CR90 that I can hide behind either the Pelta or the MC-75 and it'll take shots and not miss.

The YT-1300s are nice for hanging up his squadrons for a while, taking damage and countering - while my X-Wings go around and bomb, following the flotilla or pelta. Jan Ors can go with either group, but will probably stay with the YT-1300s holding up his other squadrons and letting them brace, while using intel to free up the X-Wings.

I'm not sure if Aspiration would be useful for me yet. I think it would require me to know how exactly I'm going to fly the cruiser and where it'll be every turn. The extra hull hells me feel more confident about getting it up close, though. Hondo I don't see how he's useful. I have 5 points left, I could throw the Damage control officer back on, especially for black dice. But then I lose my bid initiative. Do I really need it, though?

But maybe I'm wrong on all of this. Feel free to point out flaws in this. That's how I learn.

Looks solid overall.  Rieekan doesn't need the bid, especially against lists that are willing to try hard for first; he certainly doesn't mind having it, though.  Hondo is there to trigger AFFM! for a turn, allowing you to use it for three turns.  Whether you need that depends on what you're running, but YT-1300s will appreciate it.  The CR90B is sketchy at best; it's not going to kill a  Gladiator, but it can die to one shot and needs to get into the danger zone to do damage (kind of a problem with CR90Bs in general, really.)  Close and medium range aren't far apart at all.  Maybe a Hammerhead?  The fighter wing is a significant investment, and taking out the dedicated bombers makes it reasonable against Sloane or Thrawn, but really pillowfisted against ships (for something half the fleet is built around.)  You also want at least a few uniques, because they're eligible for Rieekan.

Edited by The Jabbawookie

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Second the tactic of high speed.

Sounds like your pal has a list similar to mine (Kuat, 2 x GSDs, 2 x Gozantis). I've used it 6 times, losing only once, to a Riekann MSU list, although my own poor deployment didn't help.

In the five wins almost the one common theme was low speed by my oppos. I can understand why low speed 'feels' right - You don't want to get in close with all those black dice.

However once in range, the ships stay there taking at least one extra round of shooting. With high speed you're in and out quickly.

High speed may feel counter-intuitive but it is right. Three of the people I beat all said they wished they'd gone faster.

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Alright, so he ended up bringing an Interdictor, 2 Gladiators, and an Arquitens. So I was very close. He had three aces.

My YT-1300s with Jan behind them worked BEAUTIFULLY keeping his squads where I wanted them. 

Problem is, I used my MC-75 with Aspiration and Rapid Launch Bays to deploy Luke and Nora Wexley a turn too early. I managed to get them in front of the Gladiator I marked as "Most wanted" (because that's he choose), but before they could fire, he moved over them. They had to catch up. 

I marked my GR-75 as most wanted (but still lost about 100 points with it being doubled and the squads he took out).

All in all, I was happy with how my fleet performed, but I never mustered the nerve to move my MC-75 in close to the gladiators. I probably could have taken something out. So I only had myself to blame. But also, I was pleasantly surprised by the Pelta. I'd never used it before. That rear arc is awesome. 

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If you wanted an alternate commander with a similar list...

Commander: Commander Sato

Assault: Opening Salvo
Defense: Jamming Barrier 
Navigation: Dangerous Territory

MC75 Ordnance Cruiser (100)
• Commander Sato (32)
• Damage Control Officer (5)
• Ordnance Experts (4)
• Electronic Countermeasures (7)
• External Racks (3)
• Assault Proton Torpedoes (5)
• Aspiration (3)
= 159 Points

Nebulon-B Support Refit (51)
• Intel Officer (7)
• Turbolaser Reroute Circuits (7)
• Salvation (7)
= 72 Points

Hammerhead Torpedo Corvette (36)
• Ordnance Experts (4)
• Disposable Capacitors (3)
• Assault Proton Torpedoes (5)
• Task Force Organa (1)
= 49 Points

Hammerhead Torpedo Corvette (36)
• Ordnance Experts (4)
• Disposable Capacitors (3)
• Assault Proton Torpedoes (5)
• Task Force Organa (1)
= 49 Points

Squadrons:
• Jan Ors (19)
• 2 x YT-1300 (26)
• Tycho Celchu (16)
= 61 Points

Total Points: 390

I chose the objectives I did because they all help you as a second player. If you get jamming picked, make sure you place the barrier where he would not be able to shoot on one of his big rounds and then he has to move over the barrier to where you can shoot him. Dangerous territory is pretty easy, just go all guns in to attack and not even worry about obstacles. Opening Salvo will probably not get picked because it gives you an incredible alpha strike. this list can absolutely maim a Kuat and demo if you go after it. Aspiration is really easy to set if you place your MC75 to one side of the field. that way you can 6 out the 2 sides facing him and keep the other two low. Salvation with intel officer is truly a terrible front arc to behold, and I expect you will get somewhere in the 10-15 damage range from him during the game. Hammerheads are super consistent damage at long range, and only get better. I went with APT to force more damage through to hull to hopefully get some nasty crits. It sounds like you need to focus on managing your navigation as a 75 without good navigation will not be useful at all, and will probably end up dying. 

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16 hours ago, Cleto0 said:

If you wanted an alternate commander with a similar list...

Commander: Commander Sato

Assault: Opening Salvo
Defense: Jamming Barrier 
Navigation: Dangerous Territory

MC75 Ordnance Cruiser (100)
• Commander Sato (32)
• Damage Control Officer (5)
• Ordnance Experts (4)
• Electronic Countermeasures (7)
• External Racks (3)
• Assault Proton Torpedoes (5)
• Aspiration (3)
= 159 Points

Nebulon-B Support Refit (51)
• Intel Officer (7)
• Turbolaser Reroute Circuits (7)
• Salvation (7)
= 72 Points

Hammerhead Torpedo Corvette (36)
• Ordnance Experts (4)
• Disposable Capacitors (3)
• Assault Proton Torpedoes (5)
• Task Force Organa (1)
= 49 Points

Hammerhead Torpedo Corvette (36)
• Ordnance Experts (4)
• Disposable Capacitors (3)
• Assault Proton Torpedoes (5)
• Task Force Organa (1)
= 49 Points

Squadrons:
• Jan Ors (19)
• 2 x YT-1300 (26)
• Tycho Celchu (16)
= 61 Points

Total Points: 390

I chose the objectives I did because they all help you as a second player. If you get jamming picked, make sure you place the barrier where he would not be able to shoot on one of his big rounds and then he has to move over the barrier to where you can shoot him. Dangerous territory is pretty easy, just go all guns in to attack and not even worry about obstacles. Opening Salvo will probably not get picked because it gives you an incredible alpha strike. this list can absolutely maim a Kuat and demo if you go after it. Aspiration is really easy to set if you place your MC75 to one side of the field. that way you can 6 out the 2 sides facing him and keep the other two low. Salvation with intel officer is truly a terrible front arc to behold, and I expect you will get somewhere in the 10-15 damage range from him during the game. Hammerheads are super consistent damage at long range, and only get better. I went with APT to force more damage through to hull to hopefully get some nasty crits. It sounds like you need to focus on managing your navigation as a 75 without good navigation will not be useful at all, and will probably end up dying. 

Thank you for this! I like where this list is heading. I'll try this next time!

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