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ClassicalMoser

Opinion: FFG Dropped the Ball on the B-Wing (Thematically)

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3 hours ago, MikeEvans said:

Also, don't forget an /E2 configuration!  I think that canonically it gave a gunner slot, but there aren't any gunners that would actually work at the moment (since they all require turrets for some reason), so that would need to be rectified as well.

B6 prototype would probably do that. I really don’t want to see the B-Wing as just another Rebel crew carrier though! Pretty anti-thematic to me.

Also if you make it non-unique, you open the door to the training version of the A-wing and T-70, and the extra room in the TIE/ln, and it becomes a can of worms. Hoping they keep gunner and crew slots mainly to dedicated shuttles and heavy-weapons platforms.

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I agree that we don't really need another crew carrier for Rebels, but a gunner slot does make thematic sense, as both the prototype and the E2 had them.  Maybe something that mildly improves accuracy (with charges), or something like Vet Turret Gunner but for cannons?  At the proper price point it might be just what the B-Wing needs to make those cannon slots worth it.

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I’m not really a fan of gunner slot giving an extra cannon attack.  It’s not like one guy is flying and shooting the lasers while the other guy is just waiting to pull the trigger on the Ion cannons.  They’re all linked to the same trigger.

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You have it on good authority that they're all linked to the same trigger?  Ion cannons, Autoblasters, and torpedos are entirely different weapons systems, so it would make sense that they'd all fire independently.  It's also not that the gunner's waiting for the pilot to shoot or performing half the shooting duties.  The point of the E2 gunner slot was to allow the pilot's full concentration on flying while the gunner handled all the shooting.  That should theoretically mean the gunner can shoot more (primary and cannon) than the pilot could.  But if you don't like that there are other ways to show that the pilot is freed up to fly better while leaving the shooting to a dedicated gunner.

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For example, "E2 - Dedicated Gunner" upgrade might allow B-wings to reduce the difficulty of certain stressful moves and/or allow them to perform barrel rolls while stressed, perhaps.

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14 minutes ago, MikeEvans said:

You have it on good authority that they're all linked to the same trigger?  Ion cannons, Autoblasters, and torpedos are entirely different weapons systems, so it would make sense that they'd all fire independently.

Yes, because that’s how fixed forward weapons work on any aircraft.  The pilot should be able to toggle which cannons fire when the trigger is pulled, but they all work off the same trigger.

The cannons aren’t mounted to any sort of gimbal system, and thus can’t point in any direction except where the pilot aims them.

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Well then what's the point of a gunner then?  The entry I saw said specifically that the extra seat in the E2 was for a gunner.  If weapon systems are as simple as pressing a trigger while you're flying, it would seem that you wouldn't need a second person at all for that.

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Also, if memory serves, in the Rebels episode with Sabine and Hera flying the prototype B-Wing, Sabine had her own gun cluster in front of her seat (which, granted, was not in the same cockpit as Hera) AND control of the super-laser.

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1 hour ago, MikeEvans said:

Well then what's the point of a gunner then?  The entry I saw said specifically that the extra seat in the E2 was for a gunner.  If weapon systems are as simple as pressing a trigger while you're flying, it would seem that you wouldn't need a second person at all for that.

The E2 is specifically a shuttle, but the base model of the B-Wing is a single seat fighter.  I suspect the B-Wing E2 got made canon so they could hand wave why multiple writers had shoved three people in to a single seat fighter.

54 minutes ago, MikeEvans said:

Also, if memory serves, in the Rebels episode with Sabine and Hera flying the prototype B-Wing, Sabine had her own gun cluster in front of her seat (which, granted, was not in the same cockpit as Hera) AND control of the super-laser.

I understand some people liked that depiction of the B-Wing.  Personally I consider it an abomination to OT and EU, both because “EL OH EL SOOPAR WEAPINS” and it made B-Wings canonically exist long, long before the Battle of Endor.  Rebels, for having an interesting story, absolutely destroyed good EU timelines and raised more questions to the pre Ep. IV events than it answered.

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38 minutes ago, Phelan Boots said:

 

I understand some people liked that depiction of the B-Wing.  Personally I consider it an abomination to OT and EU, both because “EL OH EL SOOPAR WEAPINS” and it made B-Wings canonically exist long, long before the Battle of Endor.  Rebels, for having an interesting story, absolutely destroyed good EU timelines and raised more questions to the pre Ep. IV events than it answered.

*sigh*

Yeah, this.

One of the things I always felt Star Wars had a leg up on Trek was in-universe continuity.   Previously, it seemed like authors had to toe the line pretty stringently.

Now, the cinematic "that will look so cool" is buggering a lot of that up.  Especially since everything has to touch base with the old in some way. 

I do blame JJ a bit for that.  Not because of what he's done in SW, but because when he did it in ST, it worked out to reboot the franchise. 

Edited by Darth Meanie

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3 hours ago, Phelan Boots said:

I understand some people liked that depiction of the B-Wing.  Personally I consider it an abomination to OT and EU, both because “EL OH EL SOOPAR WEAPINS” and it made B-Wings canonically exist long, long before the Battle of Endor.  Rebels, for having an interesting story, absolutely destroyed good EU timelines and raised more questions to the pre Ep. IV events than it answered.

This supposed discrepancy is very easy to reconcile. That episode in Rebels is just a story about how the crew of the Ghost found the very first B-wing prototype and handed it over to the Rebel Alliance who then handed it over to Slayn & Korpil to be mass produced, even using the project name Shantipole, named after the planet where it was found.

It took them years to figure out the engineering problems of making a ship that was flyable for most pilots on top of having to completely overhaul the weapons package hence why it only started seeing action post-Hoth. Up until then the B6 prototype was the only workable version, so as far as fitting in with the established history of B-wing production it fits quite nicely, at least thats how I see it.

The only real change is the ship’s designer being a Mon Calamari named Quarrie instead of Ackbar, which is a change I’m willing to accept.

Edited by Wraithdt

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5 hours ago, Wraithdt said:

This supposed discrepancy is very easy to reconcile. That episode in Rebels is just a story about how the crew of the Ghost found the very first B-wing prototype and handed it over to the Rebel Alliance who then handed it over to Slayn & Korpil to be mass produced, even using the project name Shantipole, named after the planet where it was found.

It took them years to figure out the engineering problems of making a ship that was flyable for most pilots on top of having to completely overhaul the weapons package hence why it only started seeing action post-Hoth. Up until then the B6 prototype was the only workable version, so as far as fitting in with the established history of B-wing production it fits quite nicely, at least thats how I see it.

The only real change is the ship’s designer being a Mon Calamari named Quarrie instead of Ackbar, which is a change I’m willing to accept.

That's how I saw it... as for the super weapon, the Rebellion wasn't made of money, so mass producing that would've driven up costs. As for Ackbar's involvement, I just kinda assumed he took part in streamlining the design for mass production.

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9 hours ago, Phelan Boots said:

The E2 is specifically a shuttle, but the base model of the B-Wing is a single seat fighter.  I suspect the B-Wing E2 got made canon so they could hand wave why multiple writers had shoved three people in to a single seat fighter.

I understand some people liked that depiction of the B-Wing.  Personally I consider it an abomination to OT and EU, both because “EL OH EL SOOPAR WEAPINS” and it made B-Wings canonically exist long, long before the Battle of Endor.  Rebels, for having an interesting story, absolutely destroyed good EU timelines and raised more questions to the pre Ep. IV events than it answered.

The EU timelines never existed.

Besides, the later B-Wing can't do any of that. Come on, this is ire for ire's sake.

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8 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

The EU timelines never existed.

Tell that to my childhood.

8 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

Come on, this is ire for ire's sake

Yes, because I am ired.

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1 hour ago, Phelan Boots said:

Tell that to my childhood.

Yes, because I am ired.

Don't be a baby. You think you're the only one who grew up with the EU? I'm 26 years old. You know what that makes me?

Just the right age for that to have been a HUGE part, and guess what- it was. I know far more old EU content than any one person should, I know more about Star Wars than any one person should. But I understood something a lot of people didn't.

George Lucas never gave a single f**k about the Expanded Universe. Even discrediting the very series he commissioned within it SEVERAL times.

You know who my favorite character still is? Kyle Katarn. I'm here, on this forum, because for the better part of twenty years I wanted a Moldy Crow model. I still have my first one- my precious model, next to my old cat's ashes. Not saying it's equal regard, but very high! And they got the scale right. I still fight that scale battle.

But when Disney bought the franchise and declared that the Expanded Universe was, as George Lucas had demonstrated MANY times with The Clone Wars, not canon, even though it NEVER had been due to the stratified canon, I thought to myself, "Okay. Well, that definitely gets rid of some great stuff officially and finally disbands the idea that it's canon... But, it also gets rid of absolute garbage, like the Vong, NJO, Cade Skywalker... Yeah, I can take this in stride. Let's go all in to the new future they want to make."

And you know the reality of it?

George Lucas' next trilogy he had planned ALSO DISREGARDED THE EXPANDED UNIVERSE ENTIRELY IN EVEN WORSE WAYS.

So you got the good alternative. You got the one where people who love the EU have made stuff from it Canon. You think we'd have ever had a chance to see how Han got the Falcon on the big screen? That Interdictors, Hammerheads, early Rebel A-Wings, B-Wings, VSDs, the friggin' data disk from Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight (It's there, in season frakking one of rebels!) would have ever been canon?

No! No, they wouldn't have ever been, because George never cared about anything he didn't write.

But the story group does. They're not getting rid of your childhood- it's in the past. It happened already. But part of getting old is accepting that you have to move on from it and look forward.

Try that. A lot of what you loved is getting officially recognized in a capacity never, ever before possible. Get over that hurdle, recognize the boon you have been given, take it in stride and look to the positives over the negatives.

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1 minute ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Disappointed by this remark. So many good points in your comment but this just leaves such a bad taste in my mouth :(

And you know, that's fair. But ****, how many grown folks and I gonna' have to see brandishing their childhood as something nigh holy? Things change, we have to accept that. I've seen this style of whining for years and I get a little sick of it.

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2 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:

And you know, that's fair. But ****, how many grown folks and I gonna' have to see brandishing their childhood as something nigh holy? Things change, we have to accept that. I've seen this style of whining for years and I get a little sick of it.

Of course that's true. I agree more than anyone; I'll go on record for saying I love the new Canon.

But still, let's try and be adults with the way we treat each other. It's what makes these forums a good place to be. :)

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1 minute ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Of course that's true. I agree more than anyone; I'll go on record for saying I love the new Canon.

But still, let's try and be adults with the way we treat each other. It's what makes these forums a good place to be. :)

I would fully agree... If being level headed ever got any sort of positive reaction from those one argues with. But it doesn't, more often than not. It doesn't tend to matter. Maybe that's not the best approach, but I do try to be level headed.

Sometimes it's worth being as spiteful as your opposition.

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1 minute ago, Captain Lackwit said:

I would fully agree... If being level headed ever got any sort of positive reaction from those one argues with. But it doesn't, more often than not. It doesn't tend to matter. Maybe that's not the best approach, but I do try to be level headed.

Sometimes it's worth being as spiteful as your opposition.

Being respectful and level-headed is a lot more likely to change someone's mind than being spiteful. Behavioral psychologists and sociologists have been saying this for as long as they've been around. People aren't going to join you because you're mean; they'll only take your side if they realize you're working toward a common goal.

In the online world, we never really change the minds of the people we're arguing with. But sometimes we can change the minds of 3rd party readers, and that usually happens when we show that we're more well-reasoned and respectful than the opposition.

And who knows? Once in a blue moon, we might even win someone over through kindness.

I realize this has derailed the topic a little though.

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1 minute ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Being respectful and level-headed is a lot more likely to change someone's mind than being spiteful. Behavioral psychologists and sociologists have been saying this for as long as they've been around. People aren't going to join you because you're mean; they'll only take your side if they realize you're working toward a common goal.

In the online world, we never really change the minds of the people we're arguing with. But sometimes we can change the minds of 3rd party readers, and that usually happens when we show that we're more well-reasoned and respectful than the opposition.

And who knows? Once in a blue moon, we might even win someone over through kindness.

I realize this has derailed the topic a little though.

Sometimes. But you're right.

Either way I maintain the points I made and pity those too blind to see the boon the fanbase has given.

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It would seem I’m not the most ired person here.

You misunderstand my point.  I don’t dislike all the new canon.  In fact I loved Rogue One and Solo.  I can, however, pick and choose between what Disney canon I enjoy and stuff I think was idiotic.

For example, the Battle of Endor will forever be what I hold other space battles up against.  The only thing that’s come close since was the Battle of Scarif.  Cinematically Scarif was even better than Endor.  More importantly it captured that feel of Rebel underdogs using everything they had against a vastly superior military.

Why the **** did Disney have to give the video game license to EA?  That was an idiotic choice that has continued the trend of crap Star Wars games.

Am I biased, almost certainly, and I accept that and acknowledge that.  Does my opinion mean you shouldn’t enjoy super weapon B-Wings?  Absolutely not, that your opinion.

The new canon where turbo lasers have an arcing trajectory, hyperspace collisions destroy everything in their path, and Disney does business with shady video game publishers is not perfect though.  And it is okay to be critical of that.

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