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Different cards with the new reprint?

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4 hours ago, Alonewolf87 said:

I wonder if these reprints are part of some sort of preparations they are making for the "new iteration" of the game

Very interesting idea, and perhaps a new core set with some of these cards in it? 

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@dalestephenson

You got a little hung up on my example of why the map is too good. Danger in Dorwinion is just one example.

The map definitely shut down design space because of its existence and it made cards like striders path not as useful. Its repeatable nature and low cost was too good and I have always tried to avoid using it. Why? Because it just isnt that fun to ignore every travel cost in the game with this.

The Harad cycle brought a lot of locations with forced effects ( as Seastan mentioned) and I believe the existence of thrors map was the reason. 

Its still a good card, and certainly not a coaster. Off the top of my head I can think of a few locations that make you reveal a card to travel there. Discarding the map is totally worth cancelling that, and you dont need to have a resource on hand to do it.

 

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I focused on Danger in Dorwinion because you claimed Thror's Map "completely breaks the quest".  It doesn't.  It does have travel effects on everything, so it's certainly a quest where Thror's Map is attractive.  But it's also a quest where avoiding travel effects when travelling doesn't immunize you from travel effects, since shadows and treacheries invoke the active location.  And it's a quest where you can't always use the *other* way of avoiding travel effects (exploring in staging area), because you have to clear active locations to advance.  By clever design, they've made travel effects noticeable even if you have both Thror's Map and an army of Northern Trackers.

There is no other quest in existence that Thror's Map breaks -- avoiding travel effects just isn't that powerful.  Mind you, I don't think the existence of a quest that a player card *actually* breaks is a good reason to errata a player card.  It's just a good reason not to play the card against that quest.

Yes, Thror's Map made Strider's Path less useful -- but Strider's Path isn't *that* popular even with progression players, and the big win with Strider's Path isn't avoiding travel effects, it's getting high-threat locations out of staging before the quest resolves, especially when there's no active location.  The original Thror's Map did squash that use, but was errata-ed quickly to be a travel action.  Since then, Strider's Path does something that Thror's Map can't.  So does Thror's Key, West Road Traveler, Mariner's Compass, South Away, Hidden Way and Distant Stars, all of which can make an active location while avoiding travel effects (Mariner's Compass is even repeatable).  Add to that the many cards that can place progress in staging and it's hard to see that Thror's Map has closed off any "design space" except for cheap repeatable travel avoidance in Lore -- and you can't fill that space now without recreating Thror's Map as it is.  What's the point?

It's nice for you that you can now use a weaker card because you couldn't enjoy the overpowered awesomeness of avoiding the occasional travel effect.  But this was a card that was popular in a lot of people's sideboard, so your gain comes at someone else's expense.  And as is usually the case when we see erratas as straight nerfs, the card will be less-used post-errata than it was before, making it a net loss to the community.

And thematically, it's still odd to make a unique attachment be a one-shot.

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8 hours ago, dalestephenson said:

And thematically, it's still odd to make a unique attachment be a one-shot.

Well there are some other examples in that area: Thror's Key (basically), the Black Arrow, all four of the Record attachments, Elf-Stone.

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May be someone can enlighten me and discuss why a card such as Thror’s Map, with little presence in decks (ringsdb) gets an errata (still to be officially confirmed) while Northern Tracker does not?

I wonder why worry now, before an undefinedly long break, with new errated cards such as the ones we have seen (I insist they have not been officially confirmed yet)? I mean, if the game is going to have a break, why not waiting to discuss how the game will continue (if it continues) before errating cards? Have more time for testing... and will the game have a new team of designers?

To me, it is a strange choice that the developers release erratas of cards which do not break the game just when there are but 6 packs to come. Will they as well during the "break" release erratas for the cards that appear on those packs?

Edited by Yepesnopes

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Because Thror's Map trivializes a specific facet of the game, while Northern Tracker is simply overpowered. Thror's Map basically made Travel effects a non-factor, which greatly restricts design space. The developers had to design every travel effect with Thror's Map in mind.

Northern Tracker meanwhile, doesn't mess with the meta so much. It's just really good. Take Unexpected Courage as an example. It doesn't affect the developers approach to designing cards per se. It's just ridiculously good.

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It's the same reason A Burning Brand got errataed as well: the card lets you ignore a certain core aspect of the game indefinetely for only a small investment. That would be like Eleanor without revealing a replacement card or Galadriel's action being unlimited.

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I understand your point, which could be a valid point back in 2012.

Now, if Thror’s Map gets errated, are we going to see new  locations’ traveling designs? Like, for the next 6 adventure packs...? Is it relevant?

On the other hand, NT trivializes all locations, no matter if they have a travelling effect or not.

I don’t understand, why at the end of the game’s life, anyone would go for such an errata.

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15 minutes ago, Yepesnopes said:

Now, if Thror’s Map gets errated, are we going to see new  locations’ traveling designs? Like, for the next 6 adventure packs...? Is it relevant?

On the other hand, NT trivializes all locations, no matter if they have a travelling effect or not.

I don’t understand, why at the end of the game’s life, anyone would go for such an errata.

Like I said before it could be an pre-emptive move for the "next iteration"

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In that case, would not it make more sense to wait until such a new iteration is more tangible?

As I see it, errating Thror’s Map in this precise moment makes NT, Asfaloth and company even more appealing.

Just as a reference, las weekend I was in Llinars, for a LotR lcg tournament. We were 39 participants. Games are played in 3 player mode. You don’t know with whom will you play beforehand. Over the weekend, I saw Thror’s map only in two decks. Don’t get me started on the number of NTs and Mirkwood Explorers I saw.

In anycase, I would not be convinced about an errata on Thror’s map as a necessary thing in the current stage of the game. At the same time, the concept of “pre-emptive” give me the  heebie-jeebies, USA has done already far too many wrong things for the sake of being “pre-emptive”.

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8 minutes ago, Yepesnopes said:

Don’t get me started on the number of NTs and Mirkwood Explorers I saw.

Man, I like the card too, but I want to be in this meta where Mirkwood Explorer is a super-common sight! No one but me wants to play it around here.

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I love Mirkwood Explorer.  Especially with Leather Boots on.  Let's see you nuke newly revealed locations, you lame Northern Trackers.

Seriously, while Thror's Map "trivializes" location travel effects, so does location control *in general*, which is already a multiplayer staple.  This is why the errata is particularly damaging -- Thror's map was so good at travel effects because *all* it did was avoid travel effects.  Every other way of avoiding travel effects in the game isn't limited to just nerfing the travel effect.

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But in this case the problem is the game mechanic itself: While it is possible to reveal more than one location per round in higher player counts, the players still can only travel to one of them, whereas enemies can be engaged more or less at will. And as long as one does not plan to build decks that can provide more willpower than the threat of all locations in the encounter deck AND that can deal with more treacheries and enemies than usual, location control is an important aspect of the game to cover.

And by the way, Mariner's Compass does not make an active location, it just allows you to replace a location in the staging are with no guarantee for success.

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True, Mariner's Compass doesn't directly make an active location, but since it allows you to swap a location in staging out immediately before you travel, it's a viable method of avoiding obnoxious travel effects.  Yes, it may whiff.  In quests where locaitons are 1/3rd of the deck, it should whiff about one time in seven.  (Of course, in a quest like Danger in Dorwinion you will end up with a different travel effect instead of no travel effect.)

I'm not calling for the end of location control in staging to ensure that players experience the "core mechanic" of experiencing obnoxious travel requirements.  I don't think it's a "core mechanic", just one more possible annoyance in a game chock-full of them.  Drawing Thror's Map (non-errata-ed) may avoid any future travel effects, but it's also not drawing a card that could you help in all those other aspects of the game.  The card broke no quests and was part of no game-breaking combos.  Some players will prefer the new version; others (more numerous, I believe) will prefer the old), but it was not in any sense *necessary*.

 

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@dalestephenson

I dont plan to argue long over this, I understand that you feel the way you do.

But the designers didn't decide to give this card errata because it was underpowered. And lets be honest; Caleb and the team know better than you or me what is best for this game. I trust them and appretiate their work, as Im sure you do as well.

Im also not sold that more people like the old card as you say, there are several members on this forum that have expressed otherwise. 

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2 hours ago, MikeGracey said:

I'm also not sold that more people like the old card as you say, there are several members on this forum that have expressed otherwise. 

I've been staying out of this discussion because it's kinda not very productive, but I do want to address this.

Thror's Map, before this errata, was an excessively powerful card and a top choice for efficiently beating quests. Despite that fact, for the most part I've very deliberately avoided using it in my decks for The Line Unbroken because it completely negates a core game mechanic and thus gives a really skewed perspective on the quests.

Now, I will be quite willing to use it freely. I'm way happier with this version.

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I'm in the "Just leave it be" camp on this issue. I have played with TM plenty of times and I never felt that the card's effects adversely affected my enjoyment of the game, or the challenge offered by the Encounter deck. It provided some welcome theme with an ability that makes sense only if it is recursive. (It's a map; you don't throw it away after using it once!)

That being said, this is a cooperative game, not a competitive one. If I met someone at Gencon and she/he were playing pre-FAQ Boromir, I might say something to them afterwards, but I would absolutely let them play with the ability as it is printed. The game state where one has to ask "Which version of [Card X] are you playing?" is not the result of player dissatisfaction, but, rather, a struggling design process. One could argue that players benefit from the changes with the additional design space that they offer, but I would consider that a paltry return for the maintenance of keeping up with the latest card text. If my play group wants to adopt this interpretation, I will follow suit. However, I'm happy playing it as it was designed. This is only an opinion, just like anyone else's in this thread, so take it with a grain of salt.

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PocketWraith, are you the same as Warden of Arnor on ringsdb?  He has 15 Line Unbroken decks with Thror's Map in it, the most recent from just two weeks ago.  I've only got one listed (a stereotypical deck -- early Vilya), but that's because the search doesn't pick up on sideboard cards.  I think sideboards would considerably boost Thror's Map presence at ringsdb, since it's very much a sideboard card.

But as is, Thror's Map is in 15 pages of decks at ringsdb.  Thror's Key is in 12 pages.  Secret Paths is in 31 pages.  Being able to completely negate "a core game mechanic" wasn't enough for Thror's Map to become ubiquitous, simply because said "core game mechanic" just isn't that important.  Secret Paths isn't always as good as Thror's Map for avoiding travel effects (though sometimes it's better), but it's also useful even in quests that have few or no travel effects.

I can't rule out that the players who were avoiding it because of its power, and now consider the nerfed card more interesting and playable, outnumber those who thought the old card was fine and play it less or not at all in its new incarnation.  But this isn't the first power-nerf errata that's come our way in the past few years, and all of those had posters applauding the change as well.  TaBoromir/Caldara/TaHama decks still dropped like rocks after the change, and only in Hama's case (Gwaihir's Debt) has there been any subsequent card that makes me think the errata actually was "necessary" to avoid a broken combo.  I'll place my bet on making a card less powerful makes it less used.

MikeGracey, I trust the designers to develop new cards and quests.  I think the Ered Mithrin cycle was amazing both in the archtypes created and enhanced.  My favorite new cards are ones that make old cards better.  I also trust them to design quests that aren't broken by years-old-cards that have coexisted with a hundred quests before now.  They've got an excellent track record there.

They've also got a track record with errata, so I don't trust them there.  It's a history of cards where they didn't preserve the common case when breaking extreme combos, and more recently straight-up nerfing of useful cards that broke no quests and are from cycles with a lot of dud cards.  Things are harder for a progression player now, thanks to the nerfs, and it's hard for me to see how that's "good for the game", especially with an impending hiatus.

Even well-thought out, sensible, and necessary errata imposes a cost, in terms of remembering errata, mixing the printed versions in the player card pool, and impacting published decks.

 

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Count me in as one who felt that the card needed an errata. In fact, I was almost certain that we were going to add it to the nerf list for the Ancient Mathoms project.

This particular errata still leaves the card useable, but I think that we are seeing the limitations of FFG's errata model, where they never touch costs. This card is playable at 1, but with the discard effect should probably only cost 0.

So in a funny/slightly ironic, I think that the Ancient Mathoms project went from wanting to nerf it to deciding to boost it a little (likely either by having it give the attached hero +1 willpower or reducing the cost to 0).

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