Jump to content
Emilius

Different cards with the new reprint?

Recommended Posts

7 hours ago, Seastan said:

This is my point though. ABB has been such an incredible defensive card that they haven't been able to give us a dedicated lore defender. Now we might actually get one.

I thought your original point was ABB was the reason lore didn't get *sentinel* (protect multiplayer), not that the weakness of the specific Lore defense candidates was a result of ABB.  Still, while we agree that there's no good dedicated lore defenders (Radagast IMO will immediately become the best in that role despite his lack of useful traits), there's no way short of a statement from Caleb to know *why* there isn't.  I think it's more plausible that it's just seen as more of a leadership/tactics thing -- the two defense-ability spirit heroes both reduce threat, an exclusively spirit thing.  If we ever get a first class lore defender, I expect it to have some trigger with cards or healing or scrying, because that's lore's thing.

It's also worth remembering that when we talk about 3+ defense and sentinel, there's only three distinct heroes that qualify, period:  Beregond, Erkenbrand, and the recent Grimbeorn.  It's not remarkable at all that Lore is left out when there are so few.

Maybe cutting Ents out of ABB eligibility will lead to some better Lore allies worth putting ABB on.  Now that the ents have been cut out of the loop, there's not a lot of non-temporary characters who can take it with at least 2 def and 3 hp -- Haldir, Gildor (exhaust ability), Firyal (quest ability), and the new Mirkwood Hunter.  They also all cost 4+ now that the ents are excluded, though the last gets a discount.    By contrast, spirit has seven in that category and two of them cost less than 4.  Even neutral also has four, two of which are three cost (though Thalion can become Lore).  (For completeness, leadership has ten and tactics has six that can take restricted attachments -- clearly leadership is thought of as the defense sphere, as hero Elfhelm shows.) 

Maybe now that ABB is restricted and exhausts, we can get some way of giving allies Lore?  That'd be pretty sweet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, dalestephenson said:

I thought your original point was ABB was the reason lore didn't get *sentinel* (protect multiplayer), not that the weakness of the specific Lore defense candidates was a result of ABB. 

Well, it's both. I think the reason we haven't seen a dedicated lore defensive hero is due to ABB, sentinel or no.

Quote

I think it's more plausible that it's just seen as more of a leadership/tactics thing -- the two defense-ability spirit heroes both reduce threat, an exclusively spirit thing.  If we ever get a first class lore defender, I expect it to have some trigger with cards or healing or scrying, because that's lore's thing.

I'm not sure what "the two defense-ability spirit heroes" you are referring to. Beregond and Fastred? But spirit has others: Theoden (sentinel), Frodo (raise threat), and Dain (increase defense).

Heroes with a defensive ability:

Tactics: Beregond, Beorn, Dori, Grimbeorn, Boromir, Theoden

Leadership: Aragorn, Elrohir, Erkenbrand, Gimli, Gloin

Spirit: Beregond, Fastred, Theoden, Frodo, Dain

Lore: Aragorn, Rossiel

There's a clear imbalance here.

Quote

It's also worth remembering that when we talk about 3+ defense and sentinel, there's only three distinct heroes that qualify, period:  Beregond, Erkenbrand, and the recent Grimbeorn.  It's not remarkable at all that Lore is left out when there are so few.

There's actually 2 distinct Beregonds. And it's not that surprising. When you release a 3+ sentinel defender in a sphere, you are signalling that it is meant to be that sphere's best defensive hero. I don't expect to see many competing for that role in the same sphere. But lore is the only sphere with none.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Will Radagast really be better than Denethor for defending? He has one hitpoint more and can be used for questing, but he also has 3 threat more, lacks the Gondor trait for Gondorian Shield and Noble for Ancestral Armour. And with Bard, Son of Brand it is not so hard to bring off-sphere attachments out.

Edited by Amicus Draconis

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/17/2019 at 11:22 PM, Yepesnopes said:

Yes, but Arkham horror does not force anyone to play with errated cards because they do not reprint cards with the errata. The errata stays in the document only. For me this is the key difference.

This is my most of my point hahaha.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, Seastan said:

Well, it's both. I think the reason we haven't seen a dedicated lore defensive hero is due to ABB, sentinel or no.

I'm not sure what "the two defense-ability spirit heroes" you are referring to. Beregond and Fastred? But spirit has others: Theoden (sentinel), Frodo (raise threat), and Dain (increase defense).

Heroes with a defensive ability:

Tactics: Beregond, Beorn, Dori, Grimbeorn, Boromir, Theoden

Leadership: Aragorn, Elrohir, Erkenbrand, Gimli, Gloin

Spirit: Beregond, Fastred, Theoden, Frodo, Dain

Lore: Aragorn, Rossiel

There's a clear imbalance here.

There's actually 2 distinct Beregonds. And it's not that surprising. When you release a 3+ sentinel defender in a sphere, you are signalling that it is meant to be that sphere's best defensive hero. I don't expect to see many competing for that role in the same sphere. But lore is the only sphere with none.

For "defense ability" I was thinking specifically of 3+ defense with defense-related ability, which excludes Frodo and Rossiel.  I just forgot about Dain, and his ability doesn't link into traditional spirit strength (though it obviously links with dwarven mining, which has its key cards in spirit).  I also specified abilities -- sentinel can be a useful trait, but a 3 attack/2 defense hero with sentinel is not what I consider to be a dedicated defensive hero.

Distinct may not be the right word to group the two Beregonds together, but they deserve to be grouped together.  I don't see releasing Beregond in Spirit as happening because Spirit needed a first class defender, I see releasing Beregond in Spirit to be a consequence of needing to release Beregond in Flame of the West -- he *had* to be in that box, and neither Lore nor Leadership makes sense for Beregond in the context of Book V.  The three named individuals chosen to be first class sentinel defenders (Beregond, Grimbeorn, Erkenbrand) have no connections to Lore.  Now it's perfectly true that the designers didn't have to release a Beregond hero at all, they could've had a (Tactics) Beregond ally and moved LeEomer up a box, and that would've been just as thematic.  But to buy that the designers aim was specifically to provide Spirit a first-classs defender while neglecting Lore, I'd need to see an *invented* hero in that role.

Fastred comes close in that while he's not invented, there's nothing at all known about it him save his death and nation.  But given Rohan, putting him in Spirit is the most natural sphere (and Lore least likely), and his ability specifically synergizes with Rohan-attacking-staging -- plus he reduces threat, which puts him firmly in Spirit.  There is exactly *one* hero who was FFG invented on your list of defensive heroes, and that hero is in Lore.  Further, the other Lore hero on your list (Aragorn) actually has an ability that naturally belongs in Spirit!  While there's an imbalance, the FFG-invented hero and the out-of-expected-sphere ability are both butressing Lore.

When you release a 3+ defense sentinel hero, I don't think you're signaling that it's meant to be that sphere's best defensive hero (was that really the purpose of releasing Grimbeorn in tactics) -- I think it's just signaling that it's meant to be a candidate for the best multiplayer defensive hero, period.  With such a small sample size drawing broad conclusions from Lore's exclusion doesn't seem warranted to me.

If the designers are going, sometime in the future, release such a player in Lore, what would it be?  Woodmen needs help and is lore-heavy, I think that's the best candidate for an invented defensive hero.  Dwarfdom's best defensive hero (stat-wise) already has two hero versions.  There's three 2/5 dwarves, but Bombur is already in Lore and Gimli has two versions -- I would love to see a lore Dori hero, which I think would be sentinel if ever made.  There's a bunch of 2/4 dwarves not in Lore (Nori, Balin, Dwalin, Thalin), but one is invented and one died in Moria. Gloin's a defender in Leadership, but has poor defensive stats and would not be a defender elsewhere.  Plus with the possible exception of Bilbo-carrying Dori and the ineligible exception of Balin, none are as prominent in the canon as Dain.  (Gimli is so prominent that he would get a third version if any dwarf did, but so far only Aragorn has met that hurdle.) I think Bofur is the best bet for a brand new dwarf defender since he lacks a hero version -- both his ally versions are terrible defenders, but that doesn't mean much.  Ithilien Rangers are concentrated in Lore, but Faramir, Mablung and Damrod are most prominent and already have hero versions; Anborn is probably next most prominent and doesn't have a hero version.  Dunedain could use a first-class defender more than anybody and has reasonable representation in Lore.  I'm also expecting a new Eastern tribe to be in the next cycle if they go East instead of dipping down into Mordor, as I hope/expect.

Edited by dalestephenson

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Amicus Draconis said:

Will Radagast really be better than Denethor for defending? He has one hitpoint more and can be used for questing, but he also has 3 threat more, lacks the Gondor trait for Gondorian Shield and Noble for Ancestral Armour. And with Bard, Son of Brand it is not so hard to bring off-sphere attachments out.

Bard is great for off-sphere attachments, but Bard himself is off-sphere to LoDenethor and Radagast, and if you're going off sphere to bolster defense (which you pretty much are required to do in any sphere except monoSpirit with spBard) you can just include tactics or leadership normally.  If you're looking to set up a multiplayer Super Defender, then LoDenethor (prior to the ABB nerf) has an advantage over LeDenethor and Radagast fully-loaded because he can do G. Shield/Ancestral Armour/ABB combo without a prerequisite card (Song of Wisdom for LeDenethor, Diligent Noble for Radagast) -- but you can't do it anymore, and you still need sentinel + readies, and you could start with a bunch of other more sturdy defenders in the first place, etcetera.  Bilbo might be the best pre-errata Lore super defender just because of Fast Hitch.

Post-errata and outside the super defender role -- say as the primary defender in a solo deck or even in a two-deck fellowship, I like Radagast better than LoDenethor.  Two more threat, but that's a negligible factor in defender quality.  Ancestral Armor is great, but so expensive, setup with G. Shield/ABB seems more likely.  Once setup, that gives an advantage to LoDenethor in that 5/3 is better than 4/4 defensively.  But it's not enough (in my mind) to offset being able to survive a 6-strength attack *before* getting a Shield on.  In Lore itself the defensive options are the same for both, of course, and the healing favors the higher hp hero.

But the biggest factor in my mind is their respective abilities.  LoDenethor's ability is blocked by defending, while Radagast's ability is compatible with defending.  And especially solo, Radagast's potential to quest for 2 for a resource (or free, once he gets his staff) and still defend looms large for me -- as does the prospect of guaranteed card draw with the Wizard Pipe + Messenger Raven (or ETH).  Radagast can defend + help you elsewhere.  Denethor can defend at the expense of not being able to help you elsewhere.  Now to be clear, the synergy and anti-synergy of their abilities with defense don't affect the defense *itself* unless you're using Protector of Lorien, it's just the reason that I think Radagast will be more attractive than LoDenethor in a splash-Lore-primary-defender role.  I think Radagast is going to be good fun even (or especially?) outside an Eagles deck.

One other point in the favor of Radagast as a defender is that his staff can be used to return a (non-unique) enemy to staging.  In general that's not optimal behavior, but it *does* mean that he can prevent an attack as needed, and that's a handy thing for a defender to have in his back pocket (unrestricted attachment, can only go on Beregond).  It can also be used to play Loyal Hound for free, and that's also a handy thing to have around for a hero defender.  I think that outweighs Denethor's ability to benefit from out-of-sphere events like For Gondor!, Behind Stone Walls, and Gondorian Discipline.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for your insight. Unfortunately, I lost my answer when my browser closed... Ah, well: The general idea was, that Denethor can be used for scrying and encounter manipulation, when there is no need to defend, which I value more than 2 extra willpower. Remember, in a solo game, enemies are less likely and scrying is crazy powerful. The probability to get the Gondorian Shield on Denethor in the first round is 57.5% when you mulligan for it. With Open the Armory you can increase that chance to 66.2% and more, if you get extra copies of the event. So in 2 out of 3 games you can start with the Shield and thus 5 defence.

Then the scenario also plays a factor: 3 less threat mean 3 extra rounds to prepare for a Hill Troll. With the Shield, Denethor can defend up to 2 times, depending on the shadow effect, while Radagast only survives once (one extra defence does not help without healing), which buys another round. With the next armour boost Denethor can defend against the likes of Durin's Bane or Thaurdir without taking damage.

Behind Strong Walls and Gondorian Discipline might be out of sphere, but have a sphere match with the Shield, so I see no problem there, if you use a tactics hero instead of Bard Son of Brand.

Both heroes have different advantages in a solo game, though in multiplayer Denethor loses faster compared to Radagast: Scrying just is no longer as powerful, while defending most likely gets covered by a more powerful hero with innate sentinel. Radagast's abilities and toys on the other hand remain useful.

Funny, that Fast Hitch makes an even weaker hero more useful for defending masses of enemies.

Btw. why does healing favour higher hp heroes? I would write that as less defence favours healing.

Edited by Amicus Draconis

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Amicus Draconis said:

Thanks for your insight. Unfortunately, I lost my answer when my browser closed... Ah, well: The general idea was, that Denethor can be used for scrying and encounter manipulation, when there is no need to defend, which I value more than 2 extra willpower. Remember, in a solo game, enemies are less likely and scrying is crazy powerful. The probability to get the Gondorian Shield on Denethor in the first round is 57.5% when you mulligan for it. With Open the Armory you can increase that chance to 66.2% and more, if you get extra copies of the event. So in 2 out of 3 games you can start with the Shield and thus 5 defence.

Then the scenario also plays a factor: 3 less threat mean 3 extra rounds to prepare for a Hill Troll. With the Shield, Denethor can defend up to 2 times, depending on the shadow effect, while Radagast only survives once (one extra defence does not help without healing), which buys another round. With the next armour boost Denethor can defend against the likes of Durin's Bane or Thaurdir without taking damage.

Behind Strong Walls and Gondorian Discipline might be out of sphere, but have a sphere match with the Shield, so I see no problem there, if you use a tactics hero instead of Bard Son of Brand.

Both heroes have different advantages in a solo game, though in multiplayer Denethor loses faster compared to Radagast: Scrying just is no longer as powerful, while defending most likely gets covered by a more powerful hero with innate sentinel. Radagast's abilities and toys on the other hand remain useful.

Funny, that Fast Hitch makes an even weaker hero more useful for defending masses of enemies.

Btw. why does healing favour higher hp heroes? I would write that as less defence favours healing.

Yes, in one deck Denethor's ability is dead useful, when he's not defending.  I've not played LoDenethor with SpBard/Tactics, but I've played him a lot in the Beorn's Path lineup of Theodred/LeAragorn/LoDenethor.  There I rely on 3x Dunedain Warning for defense, though Ancestral Armor would be nice in the deck -- Steward typically goes on LoDenethor and he uses Rivendell Minstrel to fetch Song of Kings, so resources aren't much of an issue.  I'd guess I end up scrying at about 50% of the time, since getting rid of enemies quickly doesn't always happen in leadership/lore mix, using with Tactics it might be less defenses.  If mixing with spirit, UC can up the scrying considerably.

Whether the 3 threat differential makes a difference is quest-dependent -- most quests it doesn't matter much, but Journey Down the Anduin has that hard 30 -- but not necessarily for Radagast!  If you find his staff (and that would be worth mulliganing for) he doesn't have to defend the Troll at all until you're ready to take it down, just keep popping it back into staging -- with only 1 threat, that won't hurt you much and take as long as you want to prepare.  Since his staff is neutral, you can play it on turn one if either it or Word of Command is in your opening hand.

Healing favors the high hp hero only in the sense that (if you can heal it), it allows you to have a larger *consistent* defense.  If you can fully heal, you can absorb a (Def + hp - 1) attack each turn.  So for example, with plenty of healing and no boost to defense, Radagast can take a 6-strength attack *every turn*, and Denethor can't take it at all.  But that's really only with dedicated defending heroes and it takes a lot of healing -- for questers/attackers spot healing enables low hp heroes to stay alive indefinitely, even the 2 hp hobbits, so you aren't paying in threat for hps you aren't likely to need.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, GILLIES291 said:

Can't Radaghast only return a non-unique creature to the staging area? So hill troll wouldn't work. 

The hill troll is not unique

Edited by Yepesnopes

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, dalestephenson said:

 I also specified abilities -- sentinel can be a useful trait, but a 3 attack/2 defense hero with sentinel is not what I consider to be a dedicated defensive hero

"Sentinel" is not a trait. It's an ability. Whether or not Loragorn is a useful defender in practice, he is a hero with a defensive ability.

But this goes to show my point even further: the only 2 lore heroes with defensive abilities aren't even that good at defending! And when you compare the two spheres that are traditionally less combat focused - lore and spirit - it 's clear that lore lags behind massively in the defense department. The only justification I can think of for this huge discrepancy is the presence of A Burning Brand. So I predict a lot more defense coming to lore now with the ABB errata.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...