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drail14me

Make Armada digital for points and slots...

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There certainly is a lot of chicken little, the sky is falling going on here.  The points are on your cards, if you don't want to adapt to change, you don't have to.  If they make points for tournaments digital either on an app or via .pdf on their website, you can still get access to the point updates.  If you are able to access your computer to see this forum, you can download the .pdf document and you don't even have to use the app.  If you can't deal with having to print out updates, then I guess the competitive scene just isn't for you.  There is nothing wrong with that.  Enjoy the game your way.  Please allow for the chance to correct some mistakes for the benefit of everyone though.

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58 minutes ago, Woobyluv said:

There certainly is a lot of chicken little, the sky is falling going on here.  The points are on your cards, if you don't want to adapt to change, you don't have to.  If they make points for tournaments digital either on an app or via .pdf on their website, you can still get access to the point updates.  If you are able to access your computer to see this forum, you can download the .pdf document and you don't even have to use the app.  If you can't deal with having to print out updates, then I guess the competitive scene just isn't for you.  There is nothing wrong with that.  Enjoy the game your way.  Please allow for the chance to correct some mistakes for the benefit of everyone though.

 

An individual wouldn't even have to print it out. The app that ran Golem Arcana allowed for guests to input their lists onto the primary users app. They could even name it and save it. Each list built in another app or printed also came with an IR code that the primary users app scanned and populated. At the end of the match the results got spit out into another IR code that the TO scanned and all the points/objectives etc. were calcualted. What was really cool all the date was uploaded to the game runners so they could spit out accurate analysis. So it can all be done. 

An Armada app wouldn't need that level of functionality, just give me list building points balances and errata updates. Maybe even a pdf copy of the RR, OP Rules etc. 

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6 hours ago, Rikash said:

If you don't mind me asking, how do you feel about FAQ/Errata? Those are similarly online only, with only a few cards being reprinted with the new text (Rhymer Alt Art is the only one I can think of off the top of my head). It seems like the points value would be even less of an issue. If you and your opponent choose to, you can completely ignore the online rules and just use the printed point values (without the benefit of the balancing that the updated points cost reflect). If FFG discontinues Armada or goes out of business, the last PDF should still be available (somewhere online) or the printed card values could be used. This isn't directed at you exclusively @Darth Lupine, I'm just trying to understand why people dislike the option.

I understand your question. When it comes to errata, I simply memorize it. I cannot do that for constantly changing point values, or slots on ships.

To be honest, I do see some value on this idea. But for some reason, there's just an inner visceral part of me that just dislikes the concept. It's like the new video games (I own an Xbox). They're getting to where you buy a game, but there's no disk, you just download it. So you don't really own nothing....and any time the company can yank the game, or it glitches, or you lose Internet....you get my point. This whole idea of FFG arbitrarily switching points and slots, etc. online on some app or similar just feels like that.

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, Rikash said:

If you don't mind me asking, how do you feel about FAQ/Errata?

I mostly ignore them.  I play in a narrative-first group, not a competition first group.

We only do campaigns and tutorials for new players.

L5R, on the other hand, I play competitively, and religiously follow the evolving rules.

Edited by Kani Kantai

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20 hours ago, drail14me said:

@slasher956 @Kani Kantai @CDAT  I don't think you guys understand how this works. You are NOT required to have an app. You are NOT required to have a tablet or device on a table. Nothing changes with game setup or game play. All cards go on the table as normal.

The only thing that will change is in the fleet building process IF you are one of those that does it with pencil and paper. If so, instead of looking on a card for slots and points, you'll download a PDF from FFG that lists slots and points. IF you are posting on this form, then you already have the ability to do that. So, you don't have to buy a device or anything. Here is a link to the X-Wing points and slots for the Rebels https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/f1/24/f124ed5c-fcb1-4a1c-b2e0-6420b2eeb0b7/onlinepoints_rebelalliance_wave3.pdf

What this does is allow FFG to vary points and slots every 6 months. This lets them adjust a ship or upgrade that's a little cheap or a little expensive. It also lets them change up upgrade slots for some variety in builds. It simply makes the game more flexible instead for printing FAQs and errata.

No, I do not think that you understand. Some of us do not want computers involved in our board games. Also if the information that you showed is what you expect (and from all the other pages that have talked about this it is the same as what they expect) if you do not have the app, just the card and such you can not make a fleet at the table with out it. And yes you can print it out (if you have a printer) but to me having to look up on a list what my ship has for upgrade slots/points would be a major pain in the butt. Also as has been said some of us do make our lists either at the store (some of them do not have ready access to internet or enough power access), or at other locations but again with out access to the web (I am guessing not all players have access to the web, I know of several players who have no access at all to the web). So like I said if they do this I am done with the game, but to each there own.

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I'm fairly ambivalent.

While there are advantages to digitalising certain aspects of the game- for example, points costs- I do think it increases the temptation to make changes for gimmicky or commercial reasons, rather than balance and playability. Speaking as someone who tends to purchase ships and upgrades selectively, I'm probably less relaxed about sweeping changes to my purchases without there being a very good reason!

Personally, I'm much more behind digitalisation when it adds features to a game that cannot be as easily handled through non-digital means, for example, solo-play or fully co-operative modes using an AI to play the opposing force. The app for Descent is a pretty good example of this and shows the possibilities for digital aids aiding narrative and campaign play.

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36 minutes ago, CDAT said:

No, I do not think that you understand. Some of us do not want computers involved in our board games. Also if the information that you showed is what you expect (and from all the other pages that have talked about this it is the same as what they expect) if you do not have the app, just the card and such you can not make a fleet at the table with out it. And yes you can print it out (if you have a printer) but to me having to look up on a list what my ship has for upgrade slots/points would be a major pain in the butt. Also as has been said some of us do make our lists either at the store (some of them do not have ready access to internet or enough power access), or at other locations but again with out access to the web (I am guessing not all players have access to the web, I know of several players who have no access at all to the web). So like I said if they do this I am done with the game, but to each there own.

As stated before what is currently being discussed is a digital update to the points cost for tournament play and the persons that want to use those rules also at home and to leave also costs on the printed cards for those wanting to keep using the old values. So you would only be forced to use it when you want to compete in tournaments. That should not be a big problem as for tournaments you already have to use the faq and tournament rules found on the web and not in the box.

And for players without acces to the web at all in a first world country I doubt they are already active in the tournament scene at all.

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The problem with the current design is the same problem X-wing 1.0 had. As expansions are added and new upgrades come out...some of the first upgrades and ship costs are no longer balanced. It needs to be dynamic to change as the game evolves.

 

If you can post on here, than you can get the points cost online as well.

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2 hours ago, CDAT said:

No, I do not think that you understand. Some of us do not want computers involved in our board games. Also if the information that you showed is what you expect (and from all the other pages that have talked about this it is the same as what they expect) if you do not have the app, just the card and such you can not make a fleet at the table with out it. And yes you can print it out (if you have a printer) but to me having to look up on a list what my ship has for upgrade slots/points would be a major pain in the butt. Also as has been said some of us do make our lists either at the store (some of them do not have ready access to internet or enough power access), or at other locations but again with out access to the web (I am guessing not all players have access to the web, I know of several players who have no access at all to the web). So like I said if they do this I am done with the game, but to each there own.

I'm basing my recommendation on what I've seen with X-Wing. Making the points variable has been the best thing for the game. I've been using it for almost a year now and it works great. And yes, I can use my free, fan made app at the table and create a list in just a few moments. I also do it with my free Armada app and make many armada lists as I'm standing at the table. It's not what I "expect", it's what I've experienced. It works, it's great, and it could help the competitive side of Armada. If you're a casual player, you won't have to use it.

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Dumb thought. If we want to put out an app for Armada do this for all expansions going forward:

 

1) Remove points costs and upgrade slots off cards.

2) Every expansion released contains a packet, nicely done and not just a printout, of the current points and slots for all existing cards. This packet has an “as of” date somewhere on the front or back.

3) In the RRG, let players know that they should use the point values from the most recent packet based on the “as of” date.

 

This provides an app for players who want it. It provides a hard copy of the points and allows players not typically on the internet or just averse to being required to go online for any sort of tabletop game.

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Church... wouldnt work... it creates a either or situation for the gamers... they either have to buy the latest release (& possibly end up with an out of date version) or go on line and check if theres a latter version anyway...

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, slasher956 said:

Church... wouldnt work... it creates a either or situation for the gamers... they either have to buy the latest release (& possibly end up with an out of date version) or go on line and check if theres a latter version anyway...

Except it doesn’t cause those issues.

 

if they are playing casual and not competitive, just use whatever is the latest they possess. No problems. If they provide all the expansions for their group, no problem. 

 

If they are playing casual, and they don’t buy into the latest wave, while others buy into the new, they can snag one of the spare packets from another player as most players buy duplicates.  

 

While not impossible that another player only buys one of an expansion (SSD), FFG can be not stupid and not put updated points into the huge ships.

 

If you are competing at a store champ level, the previous examples probably apply. 

 

If you are competing at regionals or better, i think it is reasonable to expect you to get an app or find the most recent points online. 

Edited by Church14

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No thanks. 

I want all information available "out of the box", for everything in the box. I don't want to rely on FFG's solvency or continued support of the game, to have access to all the pertinent information for a game I have already paid for. I don't want anything except the cards required for list building. I want point values and upgrade slots on the cards for everyone to see.

The ONLY way this works for me, is to add a "print on demand cards feature", and even that won't satisfy a lot of people. 

FFG Will lose players if they make this switch.

For me, the game needs to be playable out of the box, on initial purchase, at any point during the life of the game, and after the game is no longer supported. That is what I paid for.

 

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The simplist way would be only do it for competitive. Current points costs would stay the same, making everything playable out of the box. Just release a .pdf of updated points (not slots. The ships dont need a complete reworking). The only time it would actually matter is the competitive side. And even then, its not like everything needs an adjustment. Just a few things.

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51 minutes ago, cynanbloodbane said:

No thanks. 

I want all information available "out of the box", for everything in the box. I don't want to rely on FFG's solvency or continued support of the game, to have access to all the pertinent information for a game I have already paid for. I don't want anything except the cards required for list building. I want point values and upgrade slots on the cards for everyone to see.

The ONLY way this works for me, is to add a "print on demand cards feature", and even that won't satisfy a lot of people. 

FFG Will lose players if they make this switch.

For me, the game needs to be playable out of the box, on initial purchase, at any point during the life of the game, and after the game is no longer supported. That is what I paid for.

 

Which is why I suggested a packet with points as of print date in each expansion. That solves essentially every concern you listed. 

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40 minutes ago, Ling27 said:

The simplist way would be only do it for competitive. Current points costs would stay the same, making everything playable out of the box. Just release a .pdf of updated points (not slots. The ships dont need a complete reworking). The only time it would actually matter is the competitive side. And even then, its not like everything needs an adjustment. Just a few things.

Yeah, I don't get the why people wouldn't want this.

Everything would still have printed point values and be useable out of the box. 

Centain ships and upgrades have not stood the test of time, having a PDF that adjusts points one or twice a year for competitive events would be great for the game. It's a much better way to help ships that are hurting than releasing "fix" cards like Iden and Tua. It would also shake up the meta and keep things fresh.

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Posted (edited)

My personal issue is the confusion of what people are wanting to bring in, and how.... basically people are over complicating it (or rather thats how I'm reading what you lot are saying :P)

 

Basically (as I've said before) this thread isnt really asking for anything new, people are just wanting it done is a different way... what it boils down to is people are asking for this:

i) Keep the releases as they are card /points wise

ia) oh yeah some are saying that all the releases should also have the errata document from point 2 with the version date on printed in a lovely little booklet put in to EVERY release.... so all those nice little blister/clam pack ships like the CR90s will now be re-packaged in a BOX and cost more.... 

ii) add a new errata document that is updated twice a year that lists all the models and upgrade cards and has 2 columns, original /printed card cost & new/current card cost - and possible a 3rd /4th column for adding or removing upgrade slots.

iii)have an official app thats updated on release day with all the updates included.

 

 

And thats it! 

Edited by slasher956
added point ia

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If they're going to do digital points and list building similar to X-Wing, I STILL want printed point costs on the cards.   Make them double sided or something - Original value on one side, and maybe just the image on the back if we're going digital.   This way years from now if the app disappears we'll always at least have a physical game that can be played without scouring the internet for the latest PDF.  

 

  Also it will give us some better speculation when looking at previews... 

Imagine if you will, an SSD that was all digital previewed at Gen Con.  We'd have to spend this whole year with zero knowledge of the points of upgrades for what's coming - which, with Armada's slow release schedule, would be quite miserable, IMO. 

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I would be fine with it if they continue to print cards with an existing point/upgrade structure like previous cards.  I play almost exclusively casual games.  I like building fleets without apps.  Fiddling with the cards, swapping stuff in and out.

The app is fine, and can change those numbers for official game and what not, but leave the casual capability of the cards.

 

However, I don't know if it's a healthy move for Armada.  Play numbers are dwindling.  New factions may hurt sales.  The app pushed players out of X-Wing.  We are dealing with a nearly 2 year gap in waves which has not helped player number any.  I doubt an app would in any way attract new players.  I'm not sure if our community could weather the storm from an app launch.  If sales numbers dip low enough, armada goes bye-bye.  And with a 2 year gap of attention, it's not hard to tell where FFG currently prioritizes it's Armada support at the moment.

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4 hours ago, drail14me said:

I'm basing my recommendation on what I've seen with X-Wing. Making the points variable has been the best thing for the game. I've been using it for almost a year now and it works great. And yes, I can use my free, fan made app at the table and create a list in just a few moments. I also do it with my free Armada app and make many armada lists as I'm standing at the table. It's not what I "expect", it's what I've experienced. It works, it's great, and it could help the competitive side of Armada. If you're a casual player, you won't have to use it.

Now I will admit that the app is only part of the issue, but my local game group used to have eight of us who played X-wing (there were/are more at the local store but just the ones in my group) now there is only one, and he has to find other players (for good or bad) as no one in our group will play the game any more, the three with the largest squadrons (is that what you call your X-Wing collection?) one has sold all his stuff the other two are trying to but no one will buy it in the local area. So yes X-wing is doing great overall (from my understanding) but locally not so much, and X-Wing 2.0 was the biggest issues that I have seen here.

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On 4/29/2019 at 12:54 AM, Green Knight said:

 

no one builds fleet without an app anyway

 

I do. I also don't have anything to run an app on anyways.

 

Sent from a computer at the local public library.

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An app can do mathematics and list validation pretty well. Also, one of the things an app can do is cards that are based on the ship it goes on to, for example if there is a card that allows you to re-roll all red die that is worth more on a ship with more dice to re-roll than another ship with fewer dice. Even a simple calculation like "5 times the command rating" would be something of a change.

The trouble is FFG and apps are a mixed bag for the most part, X-Wing was a bumpy start and the KeyForge App is just a disaster IMO as it has the potential to do more and does so little. I am not against the technology being used, but if FFG don't deliver I find there are plenty of alternatives out there. For your choice of app or game.

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On 4/30/2019 at 12:40 PM, drail14me said:

I'm basing my recommendation on what I've seen with X-Wing. Making the points variable has been the best thing for the game

My anecdotal experience is that while the local competitive scene (and regular players) have taken it in their stride the amount of casual X-Wing seems to have reduced with the digitisation so there may be an issue there at the entry level. But version transition is always an issue.

Nevertheless I do think it's a move that has a merit. Maybe the hybrid dual card idea (standard point side/competition blank side) that people are suggesting is the best way to go.

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3 hours ago, Zerker said:

My anecdotal experience is that while the local competitive scene (and regular players) have taken it in their stride the amount of casual X-Wing seems to have reduced with the digitisation so there may be an issue there at the entry level. But version transition is always an issue.

Nevertheless I do think it's a move that has a merit. Maybe the hybrid dual card idea (standard point side/competition blank side) that people are suggesting is the best way to go.

The casual play side in my area has also taken a hit. Those guys have ALL complained about the new "buy in" cost of the game. X-Wing required buying a new Core set and conversion kits for all your ships.

I think Armada could get away with simply making an app and releasing a FAQ and not reprinting a thing. Competitive play would use the App for points and slots, casual play could use whatever. No other changes or reprints required.

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