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Story Discussion - Tactical Maneuvers

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To further some of the points I’m reading above, we aren’t maybe seeing the right sides of the lion currently. 

If we discount all things Toturi, (he’s another post). Then the lion we aren’t seeing is all the interesting stuff. 

I have no issue with the lion as antagonist, it’s what we are shown that’s off. 

Importantly it should be shown from the stories of wounded soldiers, of die hard commanders desperately trying to hold a fortress until reinforcements arrive, and other characters living in the edge of terrible war, and just trying to survive. It should not be shown from the perspective of cocky warriors outwitting dumb dumb lion again, the eternal commanders who managed to use some manoeuvre to defeat the lion on the battlefield for the umpteenth time. 

It should be shown from the perspective of smug courtiers outmanoeuvring the lion at court, getting the last minute reprieve and saving the day. Those who falstall lion forces and reinforcements from being assigned and allow isolated pockets of lion to be defeated etc etc. It shouldn’t be cunning sneaky Ikoma up to cunning mischief. Lion don’t do sneaky. Lion don’t do cunning. 

From inside the  lion I would like to start seeing stories about the glory and thrill of battle. Seeing lion enjoy the merry mayhem of the soldiers life, and seeing them portrayed as a warrior people clad in armour taking joy in battle. The Ikoma focus on the bards life, recounting the glorious tales and songs of war, with cheer. The Kitsu honouring the warrior ancestors. 

In short they should be Samurai Klingons. 

And my personal favourite Klingons were the DS9 bunch, where we finally saw them at war properly.

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1 hour ago, JolOfNar said:

It shouldn’t be cunning sneaky Ikoma up to cunning mischief. Lion don’t do sneaky. Lion don’t do cunning. 

To be fair; they do. A non-trivial part of the Ikoma's job is creating 'incidents' where needed, and they're perfectly capable of matching wits with most clans' courtiers in the courts - thats why all these 'historical claims' have a depressing tendancy (from everyone else's perspective, anyway....) not to go away, even, in some cases, after general rulings from the Emerald Champion or even the Emperor themselves. 

1 hour ago, JolOfNar said:

Seeing lion enjoy the merry mayhem of the soldiers life, and seeing them portrayed as a warrior people clad in armour taking joy in battle.

A Swift End is good for that, but I must admit relatively little lion fiction has shown them actually fighting; Tsuko's appearances since The Price Of War have all been in her (or toturi's) command centres, not really in the field.

 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

A Swift End is good for that, but I must admit relatively little lion fiction has shown them actually fighting; Tsuko's appearances since The Price Of War have all been in her (or toturi's) command centres, not really in the field.

I suspect that's at least partly because battles eat up a lot of words for not a lot of plot or character development. The skirmish in "Between the Lines" accounts for about 20% of the story, and that was with me trying to keep it as short as possible so I'd have room for other things. We only get about 3,000 words to work with on most stories; given that a short story is defined (for award purposes) as anything up to 7,500 words, 3K keeps us on a very tight leash. Given a choice between showing a battle and mentioning that one happened while showing its consequences, the latter is often the more efficient choice.

Edited by Kinzen

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Asami’s efforts are not even slightly noteworthy. That part of the story is a bare insult to Lion fans. As Magnus Grendel pointed out, the notion that Matsu Seishin had never thought about this issue before, or even more absurd, that Ikoma Eiji had not and advised Seishin accordingly, is dumb and strikes me as lazy. Seishin is not even portrayed consistently in this story: if he is so blunt, in terms of manners and I guess intellect, he should have just said “For the sake of courtesy, please remain our guest at least until Ikoma Eiji returns in a few days.” But nope, Seishin is just a prop in this scene.

The part of the story featuring Kuzunobu is not an insult to Lion fans but it is hardly a sop to Crane fans, either. Kuzunobu acts more like a Crab or Scorpion than a Crane. At least Crane fans can disown him because of his Fox origins. If the author was characterizing Kuzunobu as a rustic descended from Unicorns struggling to pretend to be a Crane, then I would have to reverse my position and say that is well done. But if I am supposed to take this as Crane doing Crane things well then I’ll maintain it was disappointing.

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Posted (edited)

That's a strong reaction.  I really like how Asami handled her situation, and it's clear from the narrative that it was something she'd been working up to subtly for quite a while. She seized on the current window when her rival Eiji was out of the room to make her stand.  While it would be cool to see Eiji and Asami have a debate I do think that Asami was shown to be at a disadvantage when debating Eiji in the past.  In that respect Eiji is an example of a pretty effective Lion character.  I do agree that Seishin is just an obstacle in this story, but not every character can get enough words dedicated them to make them a full character in this format.  Ultimately it was suppose to be a Crane fiction.  For all we know Eiji did anticipate this and had a counter, but he was out of the room.  It's clear from the fiction that Seishin relied on Eiji for this sort of thing and was at a loss when he was missing.  I don't think that's all that problematic.  Eiji can't coach Seishin through every possible eventuality while he's gone and Asami I'm sure is not their only concern.

Edited by phillos

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1 hour ago, Kinzen said:

I suspect that's at least partly because battles eat up a lot of words for not a lot of plot or character development. The skirmish in "Between the Lines" accounts for about 20% of the story, and that was with me trying to keep it as short as possible so I'd have room for other things. We only get about 3,000 words to work with on most stories; given that a short story is defined (for award purposes) as anything up to 7,500 words, 3K keeps us on a very tight leash. Given a choice between showing a battle and mentioning that one happened while showing its consequences, the latter is often the more efficient choice.

I tend to agree with your sentiment. 

Personally, I would rather have the plot and character development over the battles anyway.

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2 hours ago, Kinzen said:

Given a choice between showing a battle and mentioning that one happened while showing its consequences, the latter is often the more efficient choice

The Ikoma bards would agree. Maybe seeing the wounded, the maimed and those who have lost relatives to the lion.  Really seeing the consequences of conflict with the glorious legions. 

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3 hours ago, Manchu said:

<Lion Fan Kool-Aid>

You do realize that the Crane have been kicked from pillar to post for most of the story until now, right? And that this is a Crane fiction (of which I never need another as long as I live, but enough about me!)? Making the Lion look good is not its job.

Kakita Yoshi (the fool) has been largely ineffectual and blindsided.
The Lion are stomping all over them with hobnailed boots.
Asami has been a Lion prisoner since she was introduced into the story, her safety of such concern that it eats up some of Yoshi's brain-space when he really has bigger fish to fry.
The Mantis are pillaging their shipping with the tacit support of the Crab.
Hotaru is compromised by her feelings for Kachiko.
Kuwanan is at odds with his sister over their father's death.
That death is a complex Kolat-involved mess that, by Imperial fiat, is going to be left sorta vague in terms of justice.
The Crane lands are still reeling from a massive tsunami that pretty much kicked them in the teeth.
The Crane are pawning their artwork to hire enough ronin to stay in the fight.

 

Heaven forbid they score two courtly victories over the Lion, one simply involving getting a courtier who wasn't formally a hostage back, the other getting the Lion to back off the one guy they sent to mess with a Minor Clan.
 

3 hours ago, Manchu said:

The part of the story featuring Kuzunobu is not an insult to Lion fans but it is hardly a sop to Crane fans, either. Kuzunobu acts more like a Crab or Scorpion than a Crane. At least Crane fans can disown him because of his Fox origins. If the author was characterizing Kuzunobu as a rustic descended from Unicorns struggling to pretend to be a Crane, then I would have to reverse my position and say that is well done. But if I am supposed to take this as Crane doing Crane things well then I’ll maintain it was disappointing.

Go read "Private Lessons" again, wherein a revered Crane sensei punks a Lion samurai and then takes his money. Kuzuobu acted very, very Crane here.

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1 hour ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

Go read "Private Lessons" again, wherein a revered Crane sensei punks a Lion samurai and then takes his money. Kuzuobu acted very, very Crane here.

Toshimoko is fundamentally a duellist - and as close to the 'wine, women and song' dashing swordsman as a respectable(ish) samurai in rokugan gets.

Given he held a grudge against his brother-in-law till it died of old age then sent it to be stuffed and mounted, I feel he's perhaps not necessarily the best example for a crane courtier. For a duellist? Yes. And Kunuzobu was able to act the way he did because he had a mini-Toshimoko in the form of Kenshinzen looking over his shoulder.

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6 hours ago, Manchu said:

“For the sake of courtesy, please remain our guest at least until Ikoma Eiji returns in a few days.”

 

A Lion lecturing a Crane on courtesy would go down in a mixed court like a lead balloon and also would be the daimyo admitting that he cannot make decisions on his own. That would go down with fellow Lions, let alone other samurai, like said lead balloon.

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8 hours ago, Manchu said:

The part of the story featuring Kuzunobu is not an insult to Lion fans but it is hardly a sop to Crane fans, either. Kuzunobu acts more like a Crab or Scorpion than a Crane. At least Crane fans can disown him because of his Fox origins. If the author was characterizing Kuzunobu as a rustic descended from Unicorns struggling to pretend to be a Crane, then I would have to reverse my position and say that is well done. But if I am supposed to take this as Crane doing Crane things well then I’ll maintain it was disappointing. 

I disagree. Kuzunobu's actions were very Crane. It might not have been Doji or Asahina style Crane actions, but they were Crane style actions: Kakita style actions. Both Asami and Kuzunobu did things that followed with the "One perfect strike is all that is needed" mentality of the Kakita. There were no feints, parries or counters. They prepared themselves, waited for the perfect opportunity and then made a Perfect Strike their opponents couldn't do anything against.

Asami's sections of the story has her setting up and executing a perfect strike that could not be blocked by Seishin. Kuzunobu's later sections have him doing the same against Akodo Kage after determining that his host needed a champion.

Each of the three Crane characters performed a perfect strike in this story. While Tactical Maneuvers is a good name for the story a better one might have been "Three Perfect Strikes."

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Shiba Gunichi, I could not roll my eyes more at your typically Phoenix high-strung response. You know very well that I like the Crane and you even inserted your usual jibe at me regarding this point. I don’t begrudge the Crane their victories. 

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14 minutes ago, Manchu said:

Shiba Gunichi, I could not roll my eyes more at your typically Phoenix high-strung response.

Since I'm not a magical samurai, ascribing traits of a fictional clan to me is somewhat silly.

14 minutes ago, Manchu said:

You know very well that I like the Crane and you even inserted your usual jibe at me regarding this point. I don’t begrudge the Crane their victories. 

It certainly seems you begrudge the Crane their victories, since your complaints about this fiction revolved around their quality and target.

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No, it actually does not seem so, at least not to anyone who took the time to read my posts. I did not complain that the Crane characters “won” — my issue (explicitly described above) is that their actions are in the case of Asami, boring, and, in the case of Kuzunobu, boorish. Asami basically just walked out of her imprisonment and a Lion character was portrayed as so dull witted as to simply allow it. This didn’t make Asami look smart or capable; it just made Seishin look stupid. Likewise, Kuzunobu doesn’t dazzle with sparkling social grace or clever wordplay. He just brutishly insists that Kage is insulting the Emperor and Kage politely defers. His so-called “perfect strike” was more like a battering with a tetsubo than a precise, artful katana cut.

As I mentioned, perhaps this is meant to characterize Kuzunobu as a bumpkin masquerading as a sophisticate — in which case, it is very well written. The part with Asami is less defensible. Even apart from it being anti-dramatic, this conflict was already framed up as a matter between Kachiko and Yoshi. No doubt, having Asami solve her own predicament presented the opportunity to develop her as a character; but that opportunity was missed here. She is as bland as her practiced expressions at court. The issue of Asami’s imprisonment should have entailed some link back to the conflict between the Crane and the Scorpion in the Imperial Court. That need not have excluded characterizing Asami as actually being clever herself, as opposed to simply using the old trick of making someone look clever by contrasting them with someone being dumb who has no real reason to be dumb.

As I mentioned to begin with, the reason I don’t like this story, and it is the first story published so far that I don’t like, is not really because of the usual jokes at the expense of Lion characters (which is bad enough) but rather because it’s supposed to be a Crane spotlight story and in my estimation it doesn’t make the Crane seem cool or special at all, apart from the Kenshinzen — and even he is shown doing something gauche.

The very best “war of words” scene we have had so far is the parlay between Mitsu and Tsanuri in Between the Lines, where both characters involved are portrayed as intelligent as well as wise. This would be a good model going forward for authors who want to write diplomatic scenes.

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Just now, Manchu said:

No, it actually does not seem so, at least not to anyone who took the time to read my posts.

Perhaps you need to work on clarity.

Because this:

Quote

Asami’s efforts are not even slightly noteworthy. That part of the story is a bare insult to Lion fans. As Magnus Grendel pointed out, the notion that Matsu Seishin had never thought about this issue before, or even more absurd, that Ikoma Eiji had not and advised Seishin accordingly, is dumb and strikes me as lazy. Seishin is not even portrayed consistently in this story: if he is so blunt, in terms of manners and I guess intellect, he should have just said “For the sake of courtesy, please remain our guest at least until Ikoma Eiji returns in a few days.” But nope, Seishin is just a prop in this scene.

certainly conveys that impression.

 

Just now, Manchu said:

Asami basically just walked out of her imprisonment and a Lion character was portrayed as so dull witted as to simply allow it. This didn’t make Asami look smart or capable; it just made Seishin look stupid.

The text does not support this interpretation.

Asami is explicitly described as having laid the groundwork for this broader support during just about her entire captivity. She takes note of Seishin's tea thing and uses that as a lever to ingratiate herself with courtiers less amused by a Matsu's self-conscious efforts at rectitude- an action that the Lion cannot have failed to notice, but which was unassailable- who are they to dictate what Asami does with her own tea? She also waits until the Emperor makes a decree to resolve the ostensible reason for her presence, keeping her cool the entire time.

She also endures Seishin's implied insults graciously, in order to pin him down. Again, had the Lion been honest and called her the hostage she was, that avenue would not have been open- but exploiting legal loopholes is what courtiers do. She knew who to talk to in order to get the support she needed- all without any help from other Crane. She was on her own there, and worked her way out. It certainly doesn't make Seishin look like a master of the court... but nothing in what we're told about him indicates that he is. He's probably a very good military commander, an honorable man, and most certainly has more on his mind than the Crane lady in his custody.

 

Just now, Manchu said:

Likewise, Kuzunobu doesn’t dazzle with sparkling social grace or clever wordplay. He just brutishly insists that Kage is insulting the Emperor and Kage politely defers. His so-called “perfect strike” was more like a battering with a tetsubo than a precise, artful katana cut.

If you see a clear statement of power and, by Rokugani cultural law, unassailable authority as anything but artful, that's on you.

Kuzunobu did not create that situation- he arrived to find Kage being about as subtle as a brick to the face. Kuzunobu then pointed out that Kage's position was insulting (and also, correctly, that it was a direct attack on the Imperial decree that made the Fox what they are in the first place), and that his own brick for these social niceties was weightier, while leaving Kage grounds to back down. Kage, not being an idiot, of course did so. 

That blunt maneuver, which you were so unimpressed by, required knowledge of the situation, knowledge of his enemy, and an understanding of the battlefield he found himself on. He consulted on the identity of the alleged "ronin" duelist, ascertained that his own duelist was supremely confident of being able to smoke him if it came to a duel, and reminded Kage that bullying is not exclusive to the Lion.

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On 4/26/2019 at 7:27 AM, Manchu said:

Read my first post in this thread. I have just restated it above. Whoever you are arguing with, it’s not me.

I don't think - I hope - people aren't really 'arguing'; I thought the story was good, you weren't a fan of it. There's no reason we have to agree.

I agree the first chapter makes Matsu Seishin look like a less capable opponent as well as making Asami look competent - @Shiba Gunichi is correct that using the lord's self-imposed virtue signalling to get buy-in from other diplomats is a smart way to do the groundwork, and her plan is a sensible 'loophole!' moment, but whilst pointedly doing it when the competent courtier is away is also a bonus for Asami because it's the right choice to make if the option comes up, it does simultaneously show up the daimyo as politically less competent (in fairness, the matsu have historically not been the finest diplomats). The fact that he's away dealing with an issue with a neighbouring Ikoma (i.e. implying the lord doesn't even get on well with other Lion Clan Daimyo) sort of supports this.

i.e. I see it as showing her as competent and Seishin as slightly inept rather than making her look superlative. Which is fair enough; if she was truly incredible at her job good either she'd have succeeded in defusing the border dispute or have escaped before the fighting started.

 

Kunuzobu on the other hand was being brick-to-the-face unsubtle and I agree. But - in his understanding - Kage was trying to start trouble, and hence shutting him down quickly and comprehensively was the aim of the game. If he'd actually wanted to engage, there could have been an interesting debate as to whether his basic premise was even true - if you look at the discussions about Minor Clans in Emerald Empire, and the 'status' section in the GM's guide, for example (which is one of the best references we have), a Great Clan Family daimyo and a Minor Clan Champion hold almost identical status, and there are arguments in favour of the bloodline of a minor clan champion being more significant, since regardless of their relative wealth or power, any clan champion is descended from someone honoured by a ruling Hantei emperor, not 'just' a sitting clan champion*.....but he didn't, so there wasn't.

 

* There's an older L5R RPG book called 'the tournament of the emperor's chosen' which goes into this - it's more like "the minor clans said they wanted a topaz championship of their own with blackjack and geisha" - but the actual philosophical arguments in the intro are pretty sound.

 

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I said don’t like the story; I did not say that you shouldn’t.

I also said I don’t like it because I think it shows poor examples of Cranes doing Crane stuff. As usual, Shiba Guncihi wants to argue with me but, also as usual, not against any point I actually made; rather he wants to make up something, attribute that something to me, then argue about it. This time around, the thing he made up and attributed to me is that I don’t like the story because in this story Crane wins and Lion loses.

Yes, Lion loses in this story. Just like Lion loses in my two favorite stories so far, Between The Lines and A Swift End.

No argument from me that Asami’s part of the story demonstrates set up and pay off. Asami bonds with other courtiers over a Matsu lord’s underappreciation for the finer things and so, when the time comes, nobody objects to her leaving. I get it. I still think it’s boring and poorly done. The situation is reduced to a popularity contest: the various envoys apparently like Asami more than they like Seishin. But envoys are present in a foreign court to represent the interests of their lords, regardless of their personal feelings about particular individuals. Asami doesn’t actually convince anyone present of her political position. We know this because she never talks to anyone about them while serving her expensive tea. She just shares some passive aggressive insults about their host. And if the Lord Seishin is so coarse and blunt, which I grant is stereotypical of Matsu samurai, then why not exercise those qualities in shutting down Asami’s gambit? Because he, along with everyone else, is reduced to the level of a pawn so that Asami, who hasn’t actually done anything politically clever, can nonetheless be characterized as clever.

The countervailing argument is that Lord Seishin intelligently calculated that losing the hostage was not as bad as admitting to holding her hostage, which might provide talking points to rivals in the Imperial Court. In effect, Seishin simply acknowledged that with the question of Toshi Ranbo settled, Asami’s value as a hostage was worth less than a pointed remark in Otosan Uchi. If this is the case, however, then Asami achieved very little — so why are we told this exploit raised her reputation? Did Asami escape or did her captor let her go? The story doesn’t set up any stakes that make Asami’s actions feel like an accomplishment on her part. It would be better to have structured the story so that, in Ikoma Eiji’s absence, Asami had laid out her case to Lord Seishin and actually convinced him, despite the conflict between their Clans and despite their personal differences. That would make her a notable diplomat.

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52 minutes ago, Manchu said:

As usual, Shiba Guncihi wants to argue with me but, also as usual, not against any point I actually made; rather he wants to make up something, attribute that something to me, then argue about it. This time around, the thing he made up and attributed to me is that I don’t like the story because in this story Crane wins and Lion loses.

I'd say we have an about 50%-75% rate of agreement on broad points, so I find the part in bold disingenuous. Might be you just notice the disagreements more.

Again. I am merely quoting what you wrote. If you take issue with that, perhaps choose words with more care. You've certainly re-framed your position with more clarity since.

52 minutes ago, Manchu said:

No argument from me that Asami’s part of the story demonstrates set up and pay off. Asami bonds with other courtiers over a Matsu lord’s underappreciation for the finer things and so, when the time comes, nobody objects to her leaving. I get it. I still think it’s boring and poorly done. The situation is reduced to a popularity contest: the various envoys apparently like Asami more than they like Seishin. But envoys are present in a foreign court to represent the interests of their lords, regardless of their personal feelings about particular individuals. Asami doesn’t actually convince anyone present of her political position. We know this because she never talks to anyone about them while serving her expensive tea. She just shares some passive aggressive insults about their host. And if the Lord Seishin is so coarse and blunt, which I grant is stereotypical of Matsu samurai, then why not exercise those qualities in shutting down Asami’s gambit? Because he, along with everyone else, is reduced to the level of a pawn so that Asami, who hasn’t actually done anything politically clever, can nonetheless be characterized as clever.

That bolded part? That's courtier 101. Especially when one cannot be certain they aren't being watched (and in fact, can probably count on the fact that they are). The trick is, people kept coming back to share those passive-aggressive insults. If they didn't agree at least a little, well, it's not like the tea's that good. And so far as it goes, if the courtiers present weren't abundantly aware of the political situation, then they wouldn't be doing their jobs.

And if Seishin doesn't fall back on being coarse and blunt, might it not be because looking at the support she's garnered, he understands that doing so is what has led to this situation in the first place? He has more to deal with than one Crane hostage (Tsuko, after all, had a much bigger fish in her net and let him go), and if letting her go allows him to seem less obnoxious to the people accredited to his court, then it's not a bad move. Not a great move, either, but he'd been outmaneuvered.

I'm starting to think that Eiji took a powder so that his lord (no great courtier)  would have no choice but to let this irritant in his court go away- certainly, her value as a hostage (de facto or de jure) in a scuffle over a city that the Throne has awarded elsewhere is diminished..

52 minutes ago, Manchu said:

 It would be better to have structured the story so that, in Ikoma Eiji’s absence, Asami had laid out her case to Lord Seishin and actually convinced him, despite the conflict between their Clans and despite their personal differences. That would make her a notable diplomat.

Crane make friends to build courtly support. That's what they do. The very reason I keep hammering on Yoshi is that he didn't do a blessed thing to turn his situation into anything but a source of friction for his clan. Asami built up a base of support, and then structured her request in such a way as to let Seishin preserve the lie that she wasn't a hostage, thereby saving the Lion some face while still achieving her own ends- all without any external support- or even resupply. By your own admission, she achieved what she did largely through fairly bland conversations over tea.

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8 hours ago, Manchu said:

She just shares some passive aggressive insults about their host.

That's not true. She also bribes the Scorpion with a spot for his son at the Kakita Academy.

6 hours ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

I'm starting to think that Eiji took a powder so that his lord (no great courtier)  would have no choice but to let this irritant in his court go away- certainly, her value as a hostage (de facto or de jure) in a scuffle over a city that the Throne has awarded elsewhere is diminished..

I prefer to think that he just didn't want the blemish of letting the hostage go on his record, so when he saw the writing on the wall he made himself scarce and left the Matsu holding the bag.

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Posted (edited)

shineyorkboy - fair point about the dojo scholarship

Shiba Gunichi - I think you must have missed forgotten? my first post ITT where I literally say making a Lion character seem dumb is annoying but par for the course but the real issue issue is Crane don’t look good enough in a Crane fiction

Per my argument above, courtiers should not fall for “courtier 101” tricks

Edited by Manchu

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Manchu said:

Shiba Gunichi - I think you must have missed forgotten? my first post ITT where I literally say making a Lion character seem dumb is annoying but par for the course but the real issue issue is Crane don’t look good enough in a Crane fiction

Or perhaps I saw complaints about Lion treatment layered onto the Crane issue.

Quote

Per my argument above, courtiers should not fall for “courtier 101” tricks

And none do. Seishin is outmaneuvered by it, but no actual courtier is undone by anything so basic. If you're talking about the non-Lion allies Asami collects, they're not "falling" for anything, they're conducting their own business in their own way.

Edited by Shiba Gunichi

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I like almost every story released thus far. I look forward to more L5R like a kid looks forward to a weekend. Unfortunately for me, I am a Lion player, refusing to play any other clan. Thus, ever since the game began, I have felt that the Lion have always gotten the short end of the stick. I am not arguing that they have (many points raised in this thread make it apparent that they don't), only that I have felt like it. I FEEL like I am playing the weakest clan in the game, I FEEL that the Lion have not won anything in the story. 

And I am not sure why that is.

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Posted (edited)

While they are clearly kicking the Cranes and Unicorn's butts (and all the clans respect their military might) in the story it feels like they concentrate on the incidents where the other clans come out on top against the Lion in the fictions almost always.  That makes it feel like the Lion are always losing even though most of the time they are winning.   I think it's easily fixed.  I've been wanting more low level military POVs from the Lion to help capture those sorts of stories and also communicate why a Lion would be proud.  What is it they treasure about their clan and their culture?  I think there's a wealth of meat on the bones for Lion stories that haven't been told yet without pushing the narrative further.  I like Toturi, but it feels like he steals much of their screen time unfortunately.  A Lion RPG supplement would help greatly as well.  I hope that comes sooner rather than later considering I feel like it's the clan least explored right now in the new continuity.

I think the clear hole in the fictions for the Lion is magnified by their lack of competitive performance in the card game.  Hopefully that's fixed now that their clan pack as been announced.  They have been getting a flood of new card support. 

Edited by phillos

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