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All that'll happen is that something else like Enchanted Blade or Meat Cleaver or Baseball Bat will become the new default weapon. The gameplay hasn't become reinvented. It's just that 1 particular has changed. In an unwarrantedly negative way imo.

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58 minutes ago, PJimo said:

All that'll happen is that something else like Enchanted Blade or Meat Cleaver or Baseball Bat will become the new default weapon. The gameplay hasn't become reinvented. It's just that 1 particular has changed. In an unwarrantedly negative way imo.

I mean, maybe I'm misinterpreting the tone here, but, it sounds like these totally optional rules that were introduced to essentially change default settings aren't for your playgroup in that case.

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5 hours ago, PJimo said:

All that'll happen is that something else like Enchanted Blade or Meat Cleaver or Baseball Bat will become the new default weapon. The gameplay hasn't become reinvented. It's just that 1 particular has changed. In an unwarrantedly negative way imo.

I think that's sort of the point. Which is to say, not reinventing gameplay, but just finding a new default.

Or, and indeed, as you mention 3 different weapons, eliminating the default weapon altogether, and opening things up so there is no weapon is the default at all.

And, as that goes, so other cards are not defaults either.

As for the method being negative, with or without warrant, that's a bit different. And why I noted the potential for that list to be modified, including dropping the Machete (2) to a Machete (1) when the .32 Colt (2) becomes available.

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Some other thoughts I've been saving regarding other musings on this.

 

I think that the List of Taboos have affected card design decisions already, if not directly then at least collaterally. As I mentioned before in discussing TCU cards, between Fingerprint and Crack the Case, this cycle has "replacements" for the cluevering powers of Rex and Dr. Milan, especially as modified in the new FAQ.

I would even go so far as to surmise and suggest that all new card decisions are impacted to some degree by experience with earlier cards, and probably an ear open for fan discussion and feedback. (I'm sure they hear quite a bit at Arkham Nights events.) And I would double down on that by saying that is a Good Thing (TM), as such puts a huge drag on Power Creep, which is a notoriously "excellent" way to destroy a game. Any steps to keep that under control should be welcomed.

 

I would also add that any consideration of cards relating to development should keep in mind the physical structure of the game as a product in terms of availability. Particularly as cycles advance, that "buy in" cost compounds. I joined after the start when it was $130. A full buy in is now $585, and $90 announced. (Plus another $70 for the side adventures.)

That means "no Dunwich Legacy cycle/no Blood on the Altar pack, no Higher Education or Streetwise at all - printed 3 xp OR Tabooed 8 xp version". And I see that 4 out of 6 Limited cards and 4 out of 7 Mutated cards - 8 out of 13 total Taboos - are from the Dunwich Legacy cycle. Start with 2 cores and The Circle Undone and that's all of 3 cards affected that newcomers have barely used, and don't even know are "defaults" they "must" include in their decks (or else?). Comparisons made between the "value" of cards should keep that in mind; again something I rather expect the designers do.

 

Is the List of Taboos the best thing since Lightning Gun Sliced Bread?

I think it is far too early to tell just yet. But it is equally too soon to declare it the worst thing since that card that everyone hates and would never use.

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10 hours ago, SamWeiss said:

I think that's sort of the point. Which is to say, not reinventing gameplay, but just finding a new default.

Or, and indeed, as you mention 3 different weapons, eliminating the default weapon altogether, and opening things up so there is no weapon is the default at all.

And, as that goes, so other cards are not defaults either.

As for the method being negative, with or without warrant, that's a bit different. And why I noted the potential for that list to be modified, including dropping the Machete (2) to a Machete (1) when the .32 Colt (2) becomes available.

Well first, it's not the case that Machete is the current automatic default. Right now I'm running a Yorick deck that doesn't even include it. TCU introduced a number of good L0 weapons and three I mentioned have already made inroads in replacing it. Machete has been because the Guardian L0 alternatives just weren't very good. And it could stand in as a decent option until the Guardians paid xp for better options and would just leave Machete as the backup. The best L0 Guardian weapon will be .45 Thompson and the Enchanted Blade; yet more L0 weapons from TCU. And each have their own individual benefits & drawbacks which would already contest Machete as the preferred L0 weapon of choice.

Basically, Machete had already lost its place as an automatic default due to the introduction of other, interesting L0 weapons. But to the extent that someone fears of a choice becoming most preferred, it's always going to be the case that some weapon gets included more in decks than others. And continually removing the leader doesn't solve that, it just moves it to something else. As something being most preferred isn't inherently a problem. And moving Machete to 2xp decreases the decision tree, it doesn't increase it.

Machete (1) could be fair. But I still see increasing its xp as a solution looking for a problem. It's primary benefit is as being relied upon when xp isn't available and other options aren't in play.

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15 hours ago, Iuchi Toshimo said:

I mean, maybe I'm misinterpreting the tone here, but, it sounds like these totally optional rules that were introduced to essentially change default settings aren't for your playgroup in that case.

Sure. And we've already decided that. But unless I'm misinterpreting things, this is a forum dedicated to talking about the game and a thread dedicated to talking about these specific changes.

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4 hours ago, PJimo said:

The best L0 Guardian weapon will be .45 Thompson and the Enchanted Blade; yet more L0 weapons from TCU. And each have their own individual benefits & drawbacks which would already contest Machete as the preferred L0 weapon of choice.

And each has limited charges.

It's not really hard to see the design thinking here, and no amount of "Well, I didn't use it in that one deck that could have so it's fine" is going to change that.

 

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2 minutes ago, Buhallin said:

And each has limited charges.

It's not really hard to see the design thinking here, and no amount of "Well, I didn't use it in that one deck that could have so it's fine" is going to change that.

The argument being put out is that Machete is such an awesome L0 weapon that it becomes the default for everything, and moots any interesting decisions. I would say that it's relevant that in the deck that I'm currently using I'm not even including it, much less deeming it the L0 weapon superior to all others.

Yes. Each of the .45 and the EB have limited charges. Having put them into the card pool creates the exact type of interesting decision and deck construction that people have been saying is needed. The EB is a Relic. That matters sometimes, and may push it ahead of the Machete for some people and some campaigns. The .45 uses ammo, which matters for a lot of cards these days, and may push it ahead of the Machete for some people and some decks. The Thompson guarantees its extra damage and doesn't rely on being engaged with that, and only that, enemy to do it. And that may matter to some people and some campaigns. The Thompson is more expensive. That may matter to some people and for some decks. The Thompson takes 2 hands (which isn't always a bad thing). That may matter to some people and for some decks. And that's just the Guardian weapons.

They didn't need to severely reduce the value of the Machete to encourage diversity and decisions. They had already done it by finally coming around with some decent and interesting L0 weapons.

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23 minutes ago, PJimo said:

I would say that it's relevant that in the deck that I'm currently using I'm not even including it, much less deeming it the L0 weapon superior to all others.

The only thing worse than relying on an anecdote is relying on a personal one.

I skimmed through the first few pages of Arkham DB.  Excluding Carolyn, 17 of 20 decks I found that could take Machete, did.

So no, I wouldn't say you're any more relevant than anyone else, and the vast majority of decks that can include Machete do so.  That's not necessarily a problem in and of itself, as has been discussed ad nauseum, but a limitless L0 weapon that adds damage is something they've obviously decided doesn't fit with the rest of the L0 weapons.

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I think the machete convo is a bit done to death no matter where you stand on it. I just want to point out that if a limitless L0 weapon that adds damage belongs anywhere, it belongs in Guardian. And though the added damage is conditional, the condition is met frequently enough that it's solidly reliable. Guardians are the monster fighters (generally). I think NOT giving them a reliable L0 2 damage weapon could be equally a design mistake. Perhaps it should require ammo/charges, perhaps not. 

Without one, though, 3 hp enemies are pretty gd inconvenient, and if your guardian can't help, what's the point of bringing one? 

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18 minutes ago, Soakman said:

I think NOT giving them a reliable L0 2 damage weapon could be equally a design mistake. Perhaps it should require ammo/charges, perhaps not. 

Without one, though, 3 hp enemies are pretty gd inconvenient, and if your guardian can't help, what's the point of bringing one? 

They do have several though, just not an unlimited one.

I'm also not sure I agree with the base premise though.  Sure, Guardians should be better, but should they do double the damage that everyone else does from the very beginning?  Or should their strengths evolve and shine from the higher XP weapons?  I'd compare them to Seekers, who don't have a permanent way to get 2 clues an action (now that Rex has been hit, anyway) but can grow into cards that enable big multi-clue grabs.

IMHO I think it's better - Guardian/Seeker has always been the go-to pairing, because each was so good at their primary role they more than made up for the other half having none of it.  Toning down those two out of the gate, while leaving them better and with the option to be the best once they evolve into it with some XP, weakens that best pairing a bit and makes playing the other classes less of a self-imposed handicap.

We could debate to whether that's a better design until the heat death of the universe, although I think that discussion is impossibly colored by the fact that the ability existed previously - humans respond notoriously poorly to loss.  This entire discussion is colored by this from the very beginning - every one of these cards would be respectably good in their new versions, but half the people out there seem to be refusing to accept the changes.  If Machete(2) were the only thing released people would think it was a great pairing with Blackjack, and a great option because it removed the ammo limitation that damage-increasing weapons typically had.  But we've had it, take it away and everyone loses their minds.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Buhallin said:

They do have several though, just not an unlimited one.

I'm also not sure I agree with the base premise though.  Sure, Guardians should be better, but should they do double the damage that everyone else does from the very beginning?  Or should their strengths evolve and shine from the higher XP weapons?  I'd compare them to Seekers, who don't have a permanent way to get 2 clues an action (now that Rex has been hit, anyway) but can grow into cards that enable big multi-clue grabs.

IMHO I think it's better - Guardian/Seeker has always been the go-to pairing, because each was so good at their primary role they more than made up for the other half having none of it.  Toning down those two out of the gate, while leaving them better and with the option to be the best once they evolve into it with some XP, weakens that best pairing a bit and makes playing the other classes less of a self-imposed handicap.

We could debate to whether that's a better design until the heat death of the universe, although I think that discussion is impossibly colored by the fact that the ability existed previously - humans respond notoriously poorly to loss.  This entire discussion is colored by this from the very beginning - every one of these cards would be respectably good in their new versions, but half the people out there seem to be refusing to accept the changes.  If Machete(2) were the only thing released people would think it was a great pairing with Blackjack, and a great option because it removed the ammo limitation that damage-increasing weapons typically had.  But we've had it, take it away and everyone loses their minds.

So riddled with errors.

Baseball bat does 2 damage. Fire Axe does 2 damage. Shriveling does 2 damage. Enchanted blade does 2 damage.  .41 Derringer can do 2 damage. .45 automatic does 2 damage. Meat cleaver can do 2 damage. .45 Thompson does 2 damage. Colt vest pocket does 2 damage. Knuckleduster does 2 damage. Survival knife does 2 damage as a reaction. Backstab does 3 damage. I've got a plan can do 4 damage. Jenny's twin .45s do 2 damage. Joe Diamond's Colt does 2 damage. Roland's .38 special does 2 damage. Finn's .38 does 2 damage. How the duck does machete do double the damage everyone else? Literally every class has a way to do it. The majority of weapons do extra damage because that's why you'd use them.

Seeker & guardian pairing are effective as much as much for the breadth of their cards as they are of the power of them. That when they draw their hands and draw through the game they know they're going to be able to do their job. Since every card in their deck be directed at it. Investigators flail when their hand won't let them accomplish what they want to do. Which happens with the joat builds sometimes. They need to kill something and draw all their clue getting cards. And out of the gate seekers have magnifying glass, Dr. Milan, fingerprint kit, connect the dots, working a hunch, deduction, true understanding, vantage point, shortcuts, flashlights, and high investigate in order to vacuum up clues. They can grow into even more absurdity but they start out as double the clue getter of any other class. 

Machete at 2xp would only be gaga'ed by idiots who don't know of any other cards. Save up 4 and buy shotgun. Or save up 5 and buy Timeworn Brand. Or use the Thompson and spend 6 xp on stick to the plan to make it affordable. It's not that awesome. Really.

Trying to drop back to armchair psychology to bolster an irrational argument is sad.

Edited by PJimo

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1 hour ago, PJimo said:

So riddled with errors.

Baseball bat does 2 damage. Fire Axe does 2 damage. Shriveling does 2 damage. Enchanted blade does 2 damage.  .41 Derringer can do 2 damage. .45 automatic does 2 damage. Meat cleaver can do 2 damage. .45 Thompson does 2 damage. Colt vest pocket does 2 damage. Knuckleduster does 2 damage. Survival knife does 2 damage as a reaction. Backstab does 3 damage. I've got a plan can do 4 damage. Jenny's twin .45s do 2 damage. Joe Diamond's Colt does 2 damage. Roland's .38 special does 2 damage. Finn's .38 does 2 damage. How the duck does machete do double the damage everyone else? Literally every class has a way to do it. The majority of weapons do extra damage because that's why you'd use them.

Just for fun, let's enumerate all this.

Baseball Bat will break about 20% of the time, meaning you'll around 5 uses, and it takes both hands.  Fire Axe requires you have no resources.  Shriveling has backlash.  Enchanted Blade has limited charges.  .41 has limited charges.  .45 has limited charges.  Meat Cleaver costs you a horror.  Thompson has limited charges, and costs 6 resources.  Colt Vest Pocket has extra super limited charges and is impossible to have in play before you're engaged, so costs you damage or extra actions too.  Knuckleduster hands them retaliate and risks damage, Survival Knife guarantees damage.  Backstab, I've Got a Plan...  Seriously?  Jenny, Joe, Roland, Finn...  one copy, AND limited charges.

2 hours ago, PJimo said:

And out of the gate seekers have magnifying glass, Dr. Milan, fingerprint kit, connect the dots, working a hunch, deduction, true understanding, vantage point, shortcuts, flashlights, and high investigate in order to vacuum up clues. They can grow into even more absurdity but they start out as double the clue getter of any other class. 

I'm seeing a theme here.  So Magnifying Glass, Vantage Point, Flashlight, and Milan are stat mods, and completely different (otherwise we'd be talking about Beat Cop).  Shortcut is certainly an awesome card, but doesn't actually get you clues.  The only things in there that get you more effect for a single action are Fingerprint Kit, Deduction, Working a Hunch, and Connect the Dots.  All of which are events or skills, which makes them...

...wait for it...

limited use.

Guardians have other options for extra damage too.  Vicious Blow, Beat Cop, Dynamite, Guard Dog.  All of which are...

...wait for it...

limited use.

Machete is UNLIMITED extra damage.  No charges, no ammo, and a pretty trivial drawback.  I'm not sure why that's so hard to grasp.  The closest thing in there is Fire Axe, and it requires a pretty specific playstyle which closes off lots of other options (if it didn't nobody would care about Drawing Thin).  How many people who can take both choose Fire Axe over Machete?

1 hour ago, PJimo said:

Machete at 2xp would only be gaga'ed by idiots who don't know of any other cards. Save up 4 and buy shotgun. Or save up 5 and buy Timeworn Brand. Or use the Thompson and spend 6 xp on stick to the plan to make it affordable. It's not that awesome. Really.

Shotgun gives you two shots and takes both hands.  Timeworn Brand is 5 XP, where it SHOULD be better, and gives you one card to draw into.  Stick to the Plan is 6 XP to go with the Thompson, and will now require two actions to play, both hands, AND burns one of three very valuable slots that could be put to better use, all in a class that already struggles with resources... and STILL doesn't have as much damage potential as Machete.

I get that you're invested in the idea that the Machete is useless at 2 XP, but... really?  I mean...  this is your choice for more efficient weapons than Machete at 2 XP?

Here, I'll help you out a bit.  If you ACTUALLY want a better weapon choice than Machete at 2 XP it's the Blackjack, assuming you're a multiplayer game.  Same XP cost, same hand slots, easier limitation, costs one less resource, one more fight boost, and avoids friendly fire.  If there's a real argument for Machete being less than 2 XP Blackjack is it, not some fantasy about how efficient the Thompson can be once you get Stick to the Plan.

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13 hours ago, PJimo said:

Well first, it's not the case that Machete is the current automatic default.

Well first, I'm not the one who called the Machete the current automatic default. That was you.

 

On 4/29/2019 at 5:29 PM, PJimo said:

All that'll happen is that something else like Enchanted Blade or Meat Cleaver or Baseball Bat will become the new default weapon.

I was replying to that specific description that you gave. If you want to change that standard, then my counter will be different.

 

14 hours ago, PJimo said:

Basically, Machete had already lost its place as an automatic default due to the introduction of other, interesting L0 weapons.

Now you declare Machete is not the default because of other changes to the card pool.

Umm . . . yeah. Exactly.

With the card pool changed, gameplay has been changed.

So what exactly is wrong with modifying Machete to reflect the new developments? Not only are there other choices, it isn't even the default.

 

14 hours ago, PJimo said:

And continually removing the leader doesn't solve that, it just moves it to something else. As something being most preferred isn't inherently a problem. And moving Machete to 2xp decreases the decision tree, it doesn't increase it.

Something being the default is not a problem, but changing the default does not solve . . . something that is not a problem?

And besides the problem was already solved by expanding the card pool anyway?

Oh, and moving Machete to 2 xp decreases the decision tree for a starting deck, but it increases it for an experienced deck. That's how such a shift works.

 

14 hours ago, PJimo said:

Machete (1) could be fair. But I still see increasing its xp as a solution looking for a problem. It's primary benefit is as being relied upon when xp isn't available and other options aren't in play.

If its primary benefit is being relied upon when xp is not available and other options are not in play, then it is a default, that pretty much being the definition of the word.

And as it goes, I touched on this in my post after my reply to you where I noted that I expect the List of Taboos is something the designers consider, at least collaterally, in designing new cards, and that discussions of cards should not assume that everyone owns everything. 

 

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8 hours ago, Soakman said:

I think NOT giving them a reliable L0 2 damage weapon could be equally a design mistake. Perhaps it should require ammo/charges, perhaps not

.32 Colt?

Which leads right into:

 

8 hours ago, Buhallin said:

If Machete(2) were the only thing released people would think it was a great pairing with Blackjack, and a great option because it removed the ammo limitation that damage-increasing weapons typically had. 

Blackjack (2) and Bandolier (2) in Return to Dunwich, and the spoiled reloadable .32 Colt (2) coming in Return to Carcosa.

.45 Automatic (2) was a back a bunch in Phantom of Truth, but it has a reload in the form of Well-Maintained (1) coming up in The Wages of Sin.

It really looks like a specific design plan to enable something other than the L3-5 Guardian only, 2-handed, 5-6 resource cost weapons as functional options going into later scenarios. Enhanced more with the other Upgrade cards added to the mix.

For which a List of Taboos Machete (2) is a "natural fit", perhaps to position it as an "upgrade" from a Trench Knife.

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I don’t understand the negativity, especially since very little testing has been done with the new list as yet (at least from what I can see). Why not give the list some time, or test out how the game plays with the Taboo list before writing it off? After the list came out, I immediately went to try to build a Rex deck with the taboo list, and I’ve had a lot more fun than I’ve ever had when trying to build a Rex deck. 

Keep in mind that besides balance, one of Matt’s reasonings in the FAQ was to “enforce shift in deck building requirements over time”. In other words, he wants to shake things up a bit and challenge players to think of cards in different ways. I don’t think that’s such a bad thing. I’m really curious/excited to see how decks change as people try to adapt to the Taboo list. (And this is coming from someone who doesn’t even have the full card pool.)

Having played other LCGs (Android Netrunner, LoTR) where the lack of balance in the cardpool caused me to lose faith in the devs/the game after some time, I appreciate the effort from the Devs to balance this game. 

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I don't get the hullabaloo either. All of the points on the Taboo list are valid criticisms of cards. They're just not necessary for my playgroup, and I appreciate them as a Taboo list, and not as errata. I feel that there is room to dissent in many cases though. Yes, you could use a colt, but the colt has ammo whereas the machete has a condition (1 engaged enemy). There's room for both. Especially with all of the gun upgrades that have been coming out lately. Either way, I'm fine. It's just bringing out some opinions on cards that I don't 100% agree with, so I like to chime in. :) 

No problem with a Taboo list at all from me in case there was a misconception.

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13 hours ago, Buhallin said:

Machete is UNLIMITED extra damage.  No charges, no ammo, and a pretty trivial drawback.  I'm not sure why that's so hard to grasp. 

You should try grasping that people do grasp it.

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14 minutes ago, PJimo said:

You should try grasping that people do grasp it.

This just seems like "last word"-smanship to me. I feel like someone could lay a trap by agreeing with your position in subtly incorrect way and you'd still try and argue with them, just to have the last word and be most rightest.

So let's test it: My playgroup contains people of various skill and experience, some of which would be absolutely thrilled to even learn that Machete or Rex or Higher Education are as good as they are, let alone become bored of them. Our struggle is typically not about over powered combos, but about how to not to spoil the scenarios for the newer players. In essence, I agree that my playgroup will not be implementing the Taboo list, or if we do, it will be on an individual basis.

Drawing Thin is more frightening than everything on the list and is currently in every deck but mine in our current campaign, and that's only because my current investigator can't run it. 

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3 hours ago, PJimo said:

You should try grasping that people do grasp it.

And yet of literally 20 or so cards that you cited as counterexamples, all but I think 2 had ammo or charges.  Heck, you even went so far as to throw in multiple events and skill cards, which are the epitome of limited use.

If you want to disagree with the premise that there shouldn't an unlimited L0 way to boost damage, that's fine.  But at this point you're willfully ignoring the actual points being made just to keep arguing about it.  I'm not going to feed this particular troll any more.

 

 

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18 hours ago, Iuchi Toshimo said:

Drawing Thin is more frightening than everything on the list and is currently in every deck but mine in our current campaign, and that's only because my current investigator can't run it. 

Whatever else is being discussed on this thread around machete etc. I must say I would tend to agree with this, on the face of it Drawing Thin seems to be a go to card that has some ridiculous potential... so it seems interesting that the taboo list is released at almost exactly the same time as a new card that feels like it should almost immediately be part of that list....

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18 hours ago, Buhallin said:

And yet of literally 20 or so cards that you cited as counterexamples, all but I think 2 had ammo or charges.  Heck, you even went so far as to throw in multiple events and skill cards, which are the epitome of limited use.

My counterexamples were to this

On 4/30/2019 at 4:50 PM, Buhallin said:

Guardians should be better, but should they do double the damage that everyone else does from the very beginning? 

You just chose to blow up against a point that I wasn't making.

As far as limited vs unlimited uses, it is a nice perk. One of the main reasons I'm so high on Timeworn Brand. But there are ways to minimize the drawback of limited uses. Survivors have Scavenging (and Yorick can pull out of the trash any Item as a reaction). Rogues have Sleight of Hand and Contraband. Mystics have Book of Shadows. Guardians have a whole slew of things. And everything has access to Emergency Cache. And there's always the option of just playing out another weapon.

Machete is a good L0 weapon. It's not hands down the best L0 weapon. It has a nice perk. It has a disadvantage. Other L0 weapons also have nice perks and some disadvantages, especially the ones that just came out in the current cycle. The primary reason that Machete was such the goto is that in general the other L0 options weren't that great. And now there are some that are. I believe Arkhamdb is going to put in an option to use in your deck the Machete, 2xp version. I expect to see very, very few decks made with it. No matter how much you rant in here about how awesome it is.

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