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Sort of Thrilled by Phase I Clone Troopers Unit Expansion

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1 hour ago, Derrault said:

Not with a beam of light that, at the slightest contact will sever your limbs or kill you. 

Ever used a sharp sword on flesh and bone? It's not so different.

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Just now, arnoldrew said:

It really is quite different.

Hey Arnold, I'm interested in what you see the difference as being.

All the movie fighting is itself based on sword arts (kendo and sabre in the OT, plus Ray Park awesomeness in the PT). The strikes we see hit people (Vader's upper arm, Luke and Vader's hands, 1000000 droids, etc) are all delivered with power and follow-through.

That cut from Luke into Vader's upper arm is particularly telling - it only cuts in about an inch.

Have you cut flesh and bone? A quick flick of the wrist can trivially cut flesh down to the bone, and right through small bones like those in a hand.

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, colki said:

Hey Arnold, I'm interested in what you see the difference as being.

All the movie fighting is itself based on sword arts (kendo and sabre in the OT, plus Ray Park awesomeness in the PT). The strikes we see hit people (Vader's upper arm, Luke and Vader's hands, 1000000 droids, etc) are all delivered with power and follow-through.

That cut from Luke into Vader's upper arm is particularly telling - it only cuts in about an inch.

Have you cut flesh and bone? A quick flick of the wrist can trivially cut flesh down to the bone, and right through small bones like those in a hand.

You're vastly overstating how "trivial" it is to cut flesh and bone with a sword. You could drop a sword on yourself and probably come away with little injury, especially given how light they actually were i real life. A lightsaber clearly cuts through things with relative ease. This is established in Star wars lore. If one is dropped on you you're pretty much ******.

Edited by arnoldrew

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10 minutes ago, colki said:

Hey Arnold, I'm interested in what you see the difference as being.

All the movie fighting is itself based on sword arts (kendo and sabre in the OT, plus Ray Park awesomeness in the PT). The strikes we see hit people (Vader's upper arm, Luke and Vader's hands, 1000000 droids, etc) are all delivered with power and follow-through.

That cut from Luke into Vader's upper arm is particularly telling - it only cuts in about an inch.

Have you cut flesh and bone? A quick flick of the wrist can trivially cut flesh down to the bone, and right through small bones like those in a hand.

And yet you can absolutely hold a blade. The same is not true about a lightsaber. 

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20 hours ago, MasterShake2 said:

 

To be fair, kneeling sucks. It's kind of a weird and awkward especially with gear and weapons as a heavy backpack would give you this dopey center of gravity. The only time I'd bother taking a knee was when standing was inappropriate and we were close to moving out, so going prone wouldn't work either. It's basically a transitional pose. People who like kneeling poses probably haven't done a lot of kneeling.

It's not transitional at all, you would have been trained that Standing/Kneeling and Prone are used for available cover, weapon stability and to acquire targets (both supported and unsupported positions).

Also Infantry ditch their packs when in contact with the enemy and take up fighting positions,  clone troops don't even have said packs, of any kind to begin with, and just because you didn't like/agree with X or Y in the service doesn't mean it is what it is. IDK if you did serve or not but half the lot here have zero clue about this topic and saying stuff like that doesn't educate anyone.

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2 hours ago, 1 said:

It's not transitional at all, you would have been trained that Standing/Kneeling and Prone are used for available cover, weapon stability and to acquire targets (both supported and unsupported positions).

Also Infantry ditch their packs when in contact with the enemy and take up fighting positions,  clone troops don't even have said packs, of any kind to begin with, and just because you didn't like/agree with X or Y in the service doesn't mean it is what it is. IDK if you did serve or not but half the lot here have zero clue about this topic and saying stuff like that doesn't educate anyone.

 

I was trained for it, it sucked. It was this weird half-resting posture, but it grates on your knees a lot. There's a valid reason why, if you've been halted for a few minutes, the SoP is to deruck and adopt a prone position instead of staying kneeling. Also, if you're getting shot at, your likely not doing a kneeling unsupported position, you're either resting your weight on a piece of cover, prone or just standing behind cover. It's not any easier to go to standing from kneeling than to go to standing from prone.

 

Also, and this might just be me, but every time my right knee got so banged up I had to switch to left, I found I also had to change firing hands. I couldn't hit anything left handed, but it wasn't that much worse than trying to shoot right handed unsupported from a left knee and at least then I didn't run the risk of falling over.

 

Then again I will never profess to being a good soldier or anything, do YMMV.

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To be fair, these are little plastic toys for grown men and women to play with while upholding a pretense of being adults. I, for one, think they're rather nice poses, and I'm not at all concerned about whether or not my clone trooper model is in a tactically advantageous position or not. They look like they're in some kind of space battle, and that's all I, in all my humble ignorance, can ask for.

Of course, you're free to disagree, and even to not buy models you think look ridiculous, just as other are free to disagree with you and make their own educated purchasing decisions. Such is the beauty of commerce.

16 hours ago, colki said:

All the movie fighting is itself based on sword arts (kendo and sabre in the OT, plus Ray Park awesomeness in the PT). The strikes we see hit people (Vader's upper arm, Luke and Vader's hands, 1000000 droids, etc) are all delivered with power and follow-through.

Case in point I'd say: lightsabers slice through battle droids like a warm knife through butter. I'm skeptical a sword could manage a same, suggesting a lightsaber's way more dangerous. Heck, if we wanna get silly, we can just compare the stats of lightsabers to vibrowswords from whichever SWRPG you please!

Still though, I agree that the Kenobi pose is fitting--it's historically inspired (which suits narratively, as much of the SW films take some inspiration from history), and (and this is perhaps the most important) Jedi have access to the Force, which helps them use their lightsabers without slicing their own limbs off. (If we wanna get technical, there have been non-Force users that have wielded lightsabers, but I'd argue the Jedi are better equipped for it.)

 

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32 minutes ago, Castlecruncher said:

Still though, I agree that the Kenobi pose is fitting--it's historically inspired (which suits narratively, as much of the SW films take some inspiration from history), and (and this is perhaps the most important) Jedi have access to the Force, which helps them use their lightsabers without slicing their own limbs off. (If we wanna get technical, there have been non-Force users that have wielded lightsabers, but I'd argue the Jedi are better equipped for it.)

 

Non-canon now, but I seem to recall an encounter in KOTOR where a group of mandalorians are practicing with looted lightsabers and talk about how one of their companions sliced their own arm off due to the blades not having weight (making it more difficult for non-force users to keep track of where the blade is in relation to their body). 

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Here is the thing.  I have been painting and assembling miniatures for 20 something years.  I have done ancients, middle ages, Jacobite rebellion, American civil war, interwar, ww2, modern, Lord of the Rings and sci fi.  Never once did I look at a set of miniatures and think "I am not buying those because of the pose" why?  Because I spent $4 on a hobby knife and a file.  These threads that 1 has been dropping astound me.  These are not even metal miniatures!  They are plastic!  PLASTIC!  With SEPARATE PIECES!  They are just begging to be converted.  Converting miniatures is a pretty basic skill of this hobby.  Nowhere near as difficult as painting.  And these miniatures all have nice open poses with no arms molded against the body where you would have to completely sculpt a new limb. or something.  I used to convert solid metal miniatures from Old Glory and Westwind where the arms were completely one piece with the body.  If you really don't like the poses then GET A HOBBY KNIFE.  Convert them to something you like!  It is not hard!

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6 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Non-canon now, but I seem to recall an encounter in KOTOR where a group of mandalorians are practicing with looted lightsabers and talk about how one of their companions sliced their own arm off due to the blades not having weight (making it more difficult for non-force users to keep track of where the blade is in relation to their body). 

Actually, in canon we have at least 3 that wield the Darksaber - which IS a lightsaber - Sabine Wren, Pre Vizla, and Bo-Katan Kryze

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On 5/7/2019 at 10:23 AM, 1 said:

But that's besides the point. How difficult is it to just watch episode 2 and copy every pose seen? Seriously. You cant get it wrong when you literally rip it from the source material but no.. we have to have these 'creative' poses that make no sense.

Yeah if only they had based it on the actual movie poses like this one:

Review_RAHCloneTrooperCommander_stillB.jpg.ad53c884976b3ede29e3a5a7d69a066a.jpg

... oh... err... wait...

(sorry about the late response... forum issues IIRC)

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1 hour ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

Actually, in canon we have at least 3 that wield the Darksaber - which IS a lightsaber - Sabine Wren, Pre Vizla, and Bo-Katan Kryze

Yes, I was providing old canon supporting evidence for the idea that force users are better suited to wielding lightsabers. 

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Posted (edited)

Hey all,

Yeah, I definitely concede/agree that lightsabers do a number on anything solid! My thinking was that lightsaber vs armoured target is very similar to sword vs naked flesh, on particular to the "he is going to get his hand cut off!" concern.

In the end, I just think the pose looks awesome and I am so excited to get my hands on it!

I've been watching Clone Wars episodes and practicing fitting LED + acrylic sabers to Luke and Vader in preparation :).

 

Edited by colki

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6 hours ago, Zerker said:

Yeah if only they had based it on the actual movie poses like this one:

Review_RAHCloneTrooperCommander_stillB.jpg.ad53c884976b3ede29e3a5a7d69a066a.jpg

... oh... err... wait...

(sorry about the late response... forum issues IIRC)

Niw I really want a clone trooper command post/speeder-thing

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Posted (edited)

Wow. Those clone trooper sculpts look more blodgy and poorly proportioned than the storm troopers.

I would have thought FFG would have learned their lesson after the death troopers (they look awesome).

I really wanted to do clones... ffs.

Edited by lologrelol

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However. After looking at the 3D sculpts, I think the terribad paint job probably makes them look more blobby than they should be. Unless the 3D didn't translate well to casting.

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42 minutes ago, lologrelol said:

However. After looking at the 3D sculpts, I think the terribad paint job probably makes them look more blobby than they should be. Unless the 3D didn't translate well to casting.

That has been the case with many of the releases.  Bad paint jobs in the articles.  Fleet troopers especially looked bad when the first images started circulating.

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Posted (edited)

My thoughts on OP

Mostly Valid criticism 

served poorly

was likely in the army

or is a pedantic tactical guy who buys everything marketed as tactical.

Look the coolest clone troopers ever got (the whole clone wars for that matter) was the 2003 Tartakovsky "Star Wars: Clone Wars" TV series.

Those clones were professional and if I were a sculptor looking for pose reference I would look to it for help.

But it’s also SCI-FI and I’m sure there are different doctrine on gun discipline. Like for example where do you point your gun in a 0 G fight? How do you change trigger mechanics to ensure that works and how do those changes effect how people hold guns in the future. 

Edited by TylerTT

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On 5/10/2019 at 1:22 AM, MasterShake2 said:

 

I was trained for it, it sucked. It was this weird half-resting posture, but it grates on your knees a lot. There's a valid reason why, if you've been halted for a few minutes, the SoP is to deruck and adopt a prone position instead of staying kneeling. Also, if you're getting shot at, your likely not doing a kneeling unsupported position, you're either resting your weight on a piece of cover, prone or just standing behind cover. It's not any easier to go to standing from kneeling than to go to standing from prone.

 

Also, and this might just be me, but every time my right knee got so banged up I had to switch to left, I found I also had to change firing hands. I couldn't hit anything left handed, but it wasn't that much worse than trying to shoot right handed unsupported from a left knee and at least then I didn't run the risk of falling over.

 

Then again I will never profess to being a good soldier or anything, do YMMV.

Did you get issued knee pads? I guess it's not a problem now since the pants have the padding stitched on (will prob become widespread). MOUT had a lot of kneeling/corners unsupported, and counter-terror units tend to do a fair bit (fences/shrubs - residential sprawl) during sieges etc, but I understand it isn't comfortable, but there have been some creative poses done for this in miniature, there was a nifty one for some Gulf War US ARMY 2/72 scale, I think it was Revell.

On 5/10/2019 at 9:28 AM, Zerker said:

Yeah if only they had based it on the actual movie poses like this one:

Review_RAHCloneTrooperCommander_stillB.jpg.ad53c884976b3ede29e3a5a7d69a066a.jpg

... oh... err... wait...

(sorry about the late response... forum issues IIRC)

Is that a joke? 

That is literally a Commander at a Forward Command Post, giving Yoda directions. Not a Squad leader in combat.

On 5/11/2019 at 5:17 PM, TylerTT said:

My thoughts on OP

Mostly Valid criticism 

served poorly

was likely in the army

or is a pedantic tactical guy who buys everything marketed as tactical.

Look the coolest clone troopers ever got (the whole clone wars for that matter) was the 2003 Tartakovsky "Star Wars: Clone Wars" TV series.

Those clones were professional and if I were a sculptor looking for pose reference I would look to it for help.

But it’s also SCI-FI and I’m sure there are different doctrine on gun discipline. Like for example where do you point your gun in a 0 G fight? How do you change trigger mechanics to ensure that works and how do those changes effect how people hold guns in the future. 

Agreed on the 2003 series.

I disagree about gun discipline being different simply because the same dangers exist: The end where the projectile/laser/plasma/etc comes out should not be pointed at friendlies or your head. Same principle on combat stance/readiness, you have to have a position the soldier can hold his weapon that enables him to quickly engage a target, and all these weapons act the same (pressed against shoulder, aim down sights/scope/whatever) and then you end up with HIGH or LOW ready, because anything else is pointing at friendlies or yourself. 

I don't think Zero G combat would be a consideration, as that should be brief and avoided in the first place but if involved in it the same rules apply, if they are using ballistic weapons it would be a bit annoying with the slight recoil in zero G.

What I do not get is the complete lack of attachments in these sci-fi armies such as under barrel grenade launchers, air burst munitions, drones, scopes etc. It's all WW1 maybe WW2 dressed up IMO and by 2019 I'm over it to say the least... so many lessons have been learned and applied since the Gulf War and we get jack.

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21 minutes ago, 1 said:

 It's all WW1 maybe WW2 dressed up

Yes. Yes it is.

That's Star Wars. Always has been and always will be.

If you want a science fiction series that goes into tactical depth using real world tactics and tech, there's probably another series out there you can follow and will greatly enjoy.

But if you're going to keep watching a space fantasy series expecting modern military tactics, you're going to keep being disappointed.

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1 hour ago, 1 said:

What I do not get is the complete lack of attachments in these sci-fi armies such as under barrel grenade launchers, air burst munitions, drones, scopes etc. It's all WW1 maybe WW2 dressed up IMO and by 2019 I'm over it to say the least... so many lessons have been learned and applied since the Gulf War and we get jack.

Those aren't a part of the setting. As mentioned before, Star Wars is not "Hard" Science Fiction or even "Soft" Science Fiction, it's Science FANTASY. It is supposed to be reminiscent of WW2 because if I recall correctly George Lucas is a bit of a history "fan" of that era, which is why he helped write and produce the movie "Red Tails."

If you want stories about space wizards with a 1970s era "futuristic" vibe, that's pretty much Star Wars (also Flash Gordon and a bunch of other television serials from the era). 

If you want military science fiction I would recommend the "Freehold" series by Michael Z. Williamson.

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