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Just to make sure I have this correct, does the card You Cannot Pass allow a character to guard a nearby character for 3 if disguarded? The double descriptive text feels awkward so I want to make sure my group gets it right.

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Yes, that's correct. The first part of that card is a passive ability that don't force you to discard the card. So as long as you have this card prepared you may use other cards to Guard for another Hero in an adjacent space. But as soon as you use the second ability of the card "Guard 3" to guard for another Hero (in your space or adjacent to you), then you have to discard the card. 

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Posted (edited)

No!!! Each ability on 1 card can be used alone, so the passive ability don't trigger when you use same card for Guard 3

the exception occurs when there are keywords "when" "before" and "after".

Edited by Shooock

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Posted (edited)
41 minutes ago, Shooock said:

No!!! Each ability on 1 card can be used alone, so the passive ability don't trigger when you use same card for Guard 3

Are you certain of this?

Nothing in the rules implies that discard effects takes timing priority over other effects (passive in aforementioned case). Also, under the timing section, a point says: "If multiple abilities resolve at the same time, the party determines the order in which those abilities resolve."

Also, another interesting point in the rules: "If multiple abilities have the same cost, a hero cannot resolve the cost once to resolve each of those abilities. Only one ability can be resolved per cost. Example: If a skill card has two abilities that require the skill card to be discarded—one text ability and one keyword—the hero cannot discard that card and resolve both of its abilities." - In our case, only one ability has the discard cost requirement, the other is passive with no cost.

I would assume that since none of both abilities has the wording "before", "when", "after", or other similar timing keywords, both likely happen at the same time, hence giving me the choice for order of effect. Passive first, then discard effect.

That's how i interpret it but since i only played up to the 3rd adventure, i am still quite new to the game.

Edited by Shirys

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1 hour ago, Shirys said:

Are you certain of this?

Nothing in the rules implies that discard effects takes timing priority over other effects (passive in aforementioned case). Also, under the timing section, a point says: "If multiple abilities resolve at the same time, the party determines the order in which those abilities resolve."

Also, another interesting point in the rules: "If multiple abilities have the same cost, a hero cannot resolve the cost once to resolve each of those abilities. Only one ability can be resolved per cost. Example: If a skill card has two abilities that require the skill card to be discarded—one text ability and one keyword—the hero cannot discard that card and resolve both of its abilities." - In our case, only one ability has the discard cost requirement, the other is passive with no cost.

I would assume that since none of both abilities has the wording "before", "when", "after", or other similar timing keywords, both likely happen at the same time, hence giving me the choice for order of effect. Passive first, then discard effect.

That's how i interpret it but since i only played up to the 3rd adventure, i am still quite new to the game.

Rulebook 1.3

"When using an ability on a card with multiple abilities, only one can be used unless an ability specifically states that it is used before, when, or after the other ability is resolved."

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Shooock said:

Rulebook 1.3

"When using an ability on a card with multiple abilities, only one can be used unless an ability specifically states that it is used before, when, or after the other ability is resolved."

I see.

This make the game a lot harder than it already is...

@Mazarbul What do you think of this?

Edited by Shirys

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Are you sure that rule isn't simply talking about cards with two triggered abilities (like if Hide and Sprint are both listed)? It seems the original question was around a passive ability and a triggered ability. Resourceful has its Fate x2 turns into Success ability, then it also has Discard to Hide. Do you not get to do both? 

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I think the passive ability is still active when you use the Guard 3 on "You Cannot Pass"

As a similar example, Legolas 1 - Keen Eyes, allows him to attack from 1 additional space away.  Certainly you can discard the Keen Eyes card itself for Strike 2 while you are making such an attack (it's not like the attack suddenly loses range and misses).

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I would be surpised if that first passive ability isn't allowed to be used along with the Guard 3 one.

But on the other hand...life often surprise me. 🙂

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This card in particular needs clarification, sure.

i think that the rule stated above, 1.3, refers to conflicting costs being paid.

if a card says discard for X. Then below says discard for Y.

rule 1.3 is clearly intended to clarify that only one of those costs can be paid. That both benefits can’t be gained.

in the case of You Cannot Pass;

it really depends on if the passive ability is available at the very moment you choose to discard for Guard 3 on the same card... there is no arguing the passive is on. But does it go away as soon as I say Guard 3? The trigger for Guard (ally suffering damage has already happened, potentially Nearby)

So;

Nearby Ally suffers damage.

YCP allows Guard to be triggered.

discard YCP for Guard 3.

done. The trigger moment for checking Nearby happened prior to the Guard 3 discard. No conflict!

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Faranim said:

As a similar example, Legolas 1 - Keen Eyes, allows him to attack from 1 additional space away.  Certainly you can discard the Keen Eyes card itself for Strike 2 while you are making such an attack (it's not like the attack suddenly loses range and misses).

I had similar questioning while playing yesterday with the same card, and rule 1.3 made it very confusing and quite nonsensical.

Since i had to define the range of my attack (which was 2 since i was not adjacent to my target) before damage was dealt, i wasn't certain if i could apply the extra strike 2 bonus to my arrow which already benefited from the extra range of that same card. This seemed anti-climatic for me. I constantly had to choose between hitting far and hitting hard - game is hard enough as it is now. Won 1st adventure, lost second and third; adventure 3 wasn't pretty. All 3 heroes kept failing at everything.

I ended up resolving both abilities on the card, made more sense to me. I feel like i cheated but in my defence, there is a grey area in the rules regarding passive and triggered abilities. 

Possible timing order:

1. Passive effect takes place on prepared card (+1 range)

2. Define range for attack

3. Test for attack

4. Discard prepared card to apply Strike 2

The confusing thing at step 4 above is since i benefited from the ability at step 1,  rule 1.3 in the rulebook could in fact prevent me from discarding the card to benefit from the strike 2 effect which i could live with i guess but makes the card a lot less appealing (as for Gimli's YCP); perhaps the effect of discarding the card automatically cancels the effect from step 1 (extra range as passive ability) but the attack test is already being resolved, well past the define range combat step. It appears dumb that it would cause my attack to miss instantly since discarding the card would nullify its extra range. Call this overthinking if you will 😃

Edited by Shirys

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Ok folks i have a new OFFICIAL answer about this ability and the 1.3 section of rulebook:

 

Quote

Section 1.3 of the Rules Reference is a mistake on our part. We will be removing it with errata, so section 1.3 will instead read: "Rule 1.3 has been removed by errata."

 

Just to be clear, we intend for each ability on a card to be resolved according to its timing. If an ability has no explicit timing (like the first ability on You Cannot Pass) that ability is considered to be active as long as that card is prepared. So when a nearby hero would suffer damage or fear, You Cannot Pass is prepared and its first ability is active. Then you may choose to discard You Cannot Pass for Guard 3 to prevent the damage or fear the nearby hero would suffer.

 

So now removing the 1.3 section you can use passive ability in combo with a ability on same card.

✌️

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3 hours ago, Shooock said:

Ok folks i have a new OFFICIAL answer about this ability and the 1.3 section of rulebook:

So now removing the 1.3 section you can use passive ability in combo with a ability on same card.

This makes a huge difference on quite a few cards and not just You Cannot Pass. Thank for following up on this @Shooock!

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