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Official Venator Speculation

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Personally, think that it will have an excellent squadron command. Midling firepower. *** for defense. Good movement. It will be in it's own faction so I think that the isd is a little unnecessary. Rebels don't have a direct analog but their faction is just fine. Just as long as it's liberty price I think it will be a big hit!

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4 hours ago, LennoxPoodle said:

The problem here is, that (at least Canon, seemingly) the Venator is the largest ship, the republic can field. So making it medium would kind of deny the republic an whole classification.

Gameplay wise I still feel like it should essentially be a mini battlestar, performing carrier stuff and long range barrage (i.e. high squadron and mostly red dice more evenly spread than for the ISD).

Well in that case we had better make it a huge ship so that they are not denied that ship class. All snarky aside just because it is their largest does not mean that it needs to be one class size or another, now maybe they will make it a large base ship, but if they do that it should be the lowest hull with least firepower of any large ship to date (and likely ever) as the information out there to base it on it has about 1/3 the weapons of the Victory (excluding point defense/anti-Squadron) and with so much of its internal volume devoted to fighters and still being smaller than any of the large base MC's it would need to have less hull then them. So you will end up with a joke of a large base ship if they do it with anything remotely close to what it should be, now as a medium it is still not going to be the first choice for a ship of the line (as a CV it should not be either) but those issues will be less due to being small size.

One other thing about the size and maybe this is just my area, but for all intents and purposes the Rebels only have small base with the occasional medium base thrown in and they are able to hold their own (last time I can remember a Rebel large base ship hitting the table was years ago, and I was the one who used it, other than that I can not ever remember it happening. So if it did so rare that skips my mind.)

4 hours ago, Lord Tareq said:

Venator should be a large ship, the cheapest large ship in the game basically. It's essentially the Republic version of the ISD in that its the main battleship so it has to be a large size ship. Combat capability wise I'd like to see similar stats to the VSD, but it should not be substantially better. I'd envision slightly less firepower, higher squadron command value, very similar hull/shield/defensive tokens (maybe 1 more hull-point due to its larger size) but speed 3 rather than 2 and slightly more expensive than the VSD.

Except every thing that I can find is that if it would be compared to any Empire ship it would be the VSD not the ISD, so does not need to be large on that account, and as have be said many times it only has about 1/3 the firepower of the VSD, so why should it have the same firepower in game? I think that it should have about 1/2 the firepower of the VSD and that is giving it a massive playablity boost. I do agree that it should have a higher command value as that is were it firepower comes from (being a CV and all). As it is a bit less than 1/3 again larger than the VSD but carries almost 20 times the fighters, this mean that much more of its internal volume is open hanger space that you can not readily  reinforce or armor, so why should it have more hull than a ship that is yes smaller, but built to take damage? I think that it should have one or two less hull than the VSD which is one more reason that to me it should be a medium based ship. As for speed I could see it being the first medium to go speed 4, and overall I would say it should be a bit cheaper than the VSD as its stats are not as good overall. But at least to me all of the reasons I see for what its stats should be I see making it a capable if interesting medium ship, but unless they just totally disregard the information out there about it I do not see anyway to make it a viable large base ship. I guess if you point it cheaper than most medium based and stat it worse than most medium base but just put it on a large base you could do that, but who would want to play that?

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7 hours ago, CDAT said:

I think that it should have one or two less hull than the VSD

So, let me get this strait. You want the Venator class Star Destroyer to have one more health point than the Hammerhead corvette?

 

This combined with the "Venator should have half the dmg of a VSD" line (which is, as @The Jabbawookie pointed out, the same as a CR-90 corvette) makes me legitimate wonder if you are just trolling, because your suggestions are obviously beyond absurd.

 

Armadas sliding scale does not just apply to it's minis sizes but also to many of the in-game stats. A CR-90 does not have half the damage output of a VSD in the actual Star Wars universe yet in this game it has.

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13 minutes ago, LordCola said:

So, let me get this strait. You want the Venator class Star Destroyer to have one more health point than the Hammerhead corvette?

 

This combined with the "Venator should have half the dmg of a VSD" line (which is, as @The Jabbawookie pointed out, the same as a CR-90 corvette) makes me legitimate wonder if you are just trolling, because your suggestions are obviously beyond absurd.

 

Armadas sliding scale does not just apply to it's minis sizes but also to many of the in-game stats. A CR-90 does not have half the damage output of a VSD in the actual Star Wars universe yet in this game it has.

If we are being honest it should probably have two less than the VSD, but for game play I am suggesting that it be one less giving it seven hull (I gave my reason and stats that I think it should have, along with the whys). And the CR90 should not be as tough as it is, or do anywhere near as much damage as it does. I think that the CR90 like several other things from when they started was them not really having a grasp on where they were going to take this game, but that may just be me. So on one hand that should give hope to the people who want it to be a uber ship regardless of what the information about it says it should have, but I am still holding out hope that they will see some reason. You may think I am trolling because I do not support your absurd thoughts about how uber of a ship it should be. I do see it being a powerful ship but not in the same way as most here it sounds like. Today what is the most powerful warship in the world? A US Navy Supercarrier, and this is more what I see the Venator as being, yes with more firepower than what one of them carries but still its main firepower is its fighters, so I stand by my thoughts on its stats as nothing I have seen says that I am wrong, just because you do not like them but can not argue them with any reason besides things like I do not like it does not make it any less relevant (not saying I will be right as that is for the powers that be to decide).

6 hours ago, Ling27 said:

1/3rd the guns of the VSD, but 2 less Heavy Duel Turbolaser Batteries than the ISD...

But besides the Dual Heavy Turbolasers that both have, the ISD also has triple turbolasers (3), 60 Ion cannons, 60 Heavy Turbloasers, Dual Heavy Ion Cannons (2), Quad Heavy Turbolasers (2), and Medium Turbolasers (2), where the Venator has Dual Medium Turbolasers (2), Heavy Proton Torpedo Tubes (4). The VSD if we want to compare them has Double (Dual) Heavy Turbolaser (20) to the Venators (8), backed up by Turbolasers (20) to the Venators Dual Medium Turbolaser Cannons (2), and finally Heavy Ion Cannons (10) to Heavy Proton Torpedo Tubes (4). So if you see them as having even close to the same firepower then I do not know what you are seeing as I am not seeing it.

6 hours ago, The Jabbawookie said:

So... a CR90 battery?  Just under a Pelta?

No as it is so difficult to look at what I said here it is again, but about the same as a Pelta.

On 4/26/2019 at 8:43 AM, CDAT said:

Here are some of my thoughts after looking up the Venator.

What                    Victory                                                           Venator                                                         Imperial
Length                 900 meters                                                   1137-1155 meters                                       1600 meters
Engines               Hoersch-Kessel Drive (1??)                        10 (type not listed)                                      KDY Destroyer-I Ion Engines (3) also has back ups
Shielding             2880 SBD's                                                   Powerful Shields                                         4800 SBD's
Hull                      1360 RU                                                         Sturdy Armor                                               2272 RU
Weapons            Double Heavy Turbolaser Cannons (20)  Dual Heavy Turbolaser Turrets (8)          Dual Heavy Turbolaser Turrets (6)
                             Turbolaser Battery (20)                               Dual Medium Turbolaser Cannons (2)   Triple Medium Turbolasers (3)
                             Heavy Ion Cannons (10)                             Heavy Proton Torpedo Tubes (4)            NK-7 Ion Cannons (60)
                                                                                                     Point Defense Laser Cannons (52)          XX-9 Heavy Turbolaser Batteries (60)
                                                                                                                                                                            Dual Heavy Ion Cannon Turrets (2)
                                                                                                                                                                            Quad Heavy Turbolasers (2)
                                                                                                                                                                            Medium Turbolasers (2)
Complement    24 Fighters                                                  460 Fighters/Gunships                                  72 Fighters
                           5 Shuttles                                                     Unknown number of Shuttles                     8 Shuttles
                          35 Ground Walkers/Vehicles                     24 Ground Walkers/Vehicles                       65 Ground Walkers/Vehicles
Crew                6107                                                                7400                                                                 37085
Troops            1600                                                                 Unknown number of Troops                      9700
Other                                                                                       Modular Planetary Garrison                      

 

So what does this mean? To me it tells me that the Venator is much closer to the Victory overall than to the Imperial. But it will have less firepower (with the exception of anti-squadron), shields I am guessing about the same, but less hull (yes it says sturdy armor, but still lots of room is used for small craft and it does not matter how strong your armor is when there is no support pillars), however it will be faster (maybe much faster).

 

More to come later, but out of time for now.

What                    Victory                                                           Venator                                                         Imperial
Length                 Medium Base                                               I see it as top end of Medium base        Large base
Engines               Speed 2 (1, -/1)                                             Speed 4 (1, -/1, 1/-/1, -/1/-/1)                   Speed 3 (1, 1/1, -/1/1)
Shielding             3/3/1                                                              3/2/2                                                             4/3/2
Hull                      8                                                                      7                                                                    11
Weapons            Front 3 red/3 blue or 3 red/3 black          1 red/2 blue/1 black or 2 red/2 blue       3 red/2 blue/3 black or 4 red/4 blue
                             Side 2 red/1 blue or 2 red/1 black            1 blue/1 black or 1 red/1 blue                 2 red/2 black or 2 red/2 blue
                            Rear 2 red                                                      1 blue/1 black or 1 red/1 blue                 1 red/2 blue
                             Anti-Squadron 1 blue                                  1 red/ 1 black or 3 black                           1 blue/1 black or 2 blue
Complement                                                                       Has no direct effect on game states, used to adjust stats.
Crew                                                                                     Has no direct effect on game states, used to adjust stats.
Troops                                                                                  Has no direct effect on game states, used to adjust stats.
Other                                                                                   Has no direct effect on game states, used to adjust stats.
Command          3                                                                       2                                                                    3
Squadron           3                                                                       5                                                                    4
Engineering       4                                                                      3                                                                     4
Defense              Brace/2 Redirect                                          Brace/Redirect/Evade                                Brace/2 Redirect/Contain

Thoughts on this here, first I see lots of people saying that it has to be a large base ship but right now the smallest large base ship is 1200 meters, and the largest medium based ship is 1129 meters so with this being 1137 to 1155 it is right in the middle of those so either it becomes the smallest large ship or the largest medium ship, so my thought is go with them as the new largest medium as that just feels better for me. Next on to speed/shields/hull/weapons first to make it different from both the VSD and ISD with ten engines it sounds fast, strong shields give it basically the same as the VSD, but just adjusted a bit (again if nothing else to make them different), it is heavily armored but still has so much space devoted to fighters that I can see not way it would be a tough as either, but still tougher than the Quasar Fire. Its firepower is low, but as a medium ship not super low, and with the speed 4 I think people would still play the ship, by reducing the command makes it a bit more responsive to help counter the lack of fire power, upping the squadron as it is a carrier first (from what I can tell), and then reducing the engineering as they all can not be better. For defense starting with the VSD, but as it is faster and more maneuverable thought giving it an evade fits. So that is my thoughts anyway, they are worth at least what you paid for them. It talks about how it has lots of point defense weapons, but I can not see them letting a main stay ship be able to one shot three hull squadrons at anything but maybe the closest range (hence the red/black or three black up close).

 

5 hours ago, Ling27 said:

In space... you can reinforce armor... outwards.

Yes, but that increases the size, and the size is already set, so your point? And even then you can only do so much bracing with out the support structure inside, and with out that you will have buckling and such to damage reducing the real effect you are getting.

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Posted (edited)
41 minutes ago, CDAT said:

I think that the CR90 like several other things from when they started was them not really having a grasp on where they were going to take this game, but that may just be me.

I think you are very wrong. The strength across all small ships is very consistent. CR90 throws 3 out of its main arc, so does the Neb, Arquitens and the Hammerhead. So the CR90 is clearly not a freak outlier. Instead portraying them this way was an intentional decision.

But really non of this matters. 3 dice throwing CR90 are now in the game. You can not ignore them. You are not creating the Venator in a vacuum. So in this game 3 dice represent:

Quote

whereas 8 dice represent (ISD2):

Quote

 

Plotting other ships and their armament next to the CR90 and the ISD clearly shows that the "dice representing firepower" scaling is not linear. That means halving the firepower of a ship in-universe would not be equal to halving the number of dice a ship throws in armada. Instead halving (or more) the damage of an in-universe ship might sometimes just result in removing a single attack die in-game. Case in point: The SSD front arc compared to the ISD front arc. The SSD Assault Prototype has an in-universe armament of around:

Quote

but only 9 dice out of it's front arc (the Command Prototype even only 8 ) While an ISD has 8 dice with about one tenth the armament. So clearly removing a single die can already represent a halving of a ships firepower. So I really do not see how a Venator could have anything less than 5 dice out of its main arc.

Edited by LordCola

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24 minutes ago, CDAT said:

No as it is so difficult to look at what I said here it is again, but about the same as a Pelta.

You're right, I should have headed over to a computer so your list formatting made sense.  I'd like to see where you think the SSD should be placed on your list, so we can then see how well that fits with game balance too.

 

I still find it absurd.  The Republic's main battleship doesn't belong just in front of refitted medical frigates they used to escort.  Now, the Venator is in an awkward spot.  It's got to be smaller than an ISD and able to represent the Republic as not only an iconic ship, but as the largest ship they field.  The Armada interpretation of the VSD is a pretty terrible ceiling.  Luckily, there is no canon source for the Victory's armament relative to the Venator (or really much else at all.)  If only there were a canon 1100-and-change meter ship to use as a guide...

latest?cb=20160726030137&f=1

Make it with carrier capability, price it higher for that.  Ta-da.  Weaker than an ISD, still something you'd actually build a list around, still something worth playing that makes sense on the sliding scale against things you'd actually see on the table.

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Posted (edited)

If we are looking at in-universe and real life analogs as reasoning:

- The ISD has no point defense, yet its card has (K,K) (B,K) and (B,B).* The actual main guns of an ISD would never be able to fire at the same forward target as each other, due to them all being lined up in a single line, thus making its guns FAR BETTER at broadsiding. However we see that this isnt the case in Armada, and the ISDs front arc is one of the most dangerous combat zones to be in.

- We've never seen how much of the Venator is actually hanger. We know that the portion down the middle is, however, those hanger bays only go as far back as an AT-TE. And, this is only a single deck. So unless the ship is a single deck, which it isnt as we've seen in multiple episodes of Clone Wars, then there is likely enough to uparmor it enough to be viable against 5 or so CIS capital ships.

- We see a single Venator tank 5 or so CIS capital ships. And they are firing at its underside.

- In episode 3, we see that Venators have gun emplacements along their side as one trades broadsides with a CIS capital ship. This gun emplacement has multiple guns. Thus we can conclude that its not just the 6 Heavy Duel Turbolaser Batteries (which are also in a line, making it optimal for broadsiding).

 

For gameplay arguements:

- I'm playing on a 6x3ft mat. I dont need much faster than speed 3.

- Its a board game, about a fictional universe, where WW1/2/Age of Sail naval combat, is fought, in space.

- Severely hindering the Venator will not sell product, unless its points are worth it. So even if its the 'biggest medium', if its worse than a Victory, and costs more... it wont get used. Ive seen a Quasar used by a whole 1 player IRL.

- Making it a forward firing ship will just make it even more compaired to the ISD ... which is moreso a problem with the ISD, as it is the bar for 'how good' something is allowed to be, and the Victory is the bar for 'how bad' is in the other direction.

Edited by Ling27
* In the world of printing: K is blacK, as B is Blue

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3 hours ago, The Jabbawookie said:

You're right, I should have headed over to a computer so your list formatting made sense.  I'd like to see where you think the SSD should be placed on your list, so we can then see how well that fits with game balance too.

 

I still find it absurd.  The Republic's main battleship doesn't belong just in front of refitted medical frigates they used to escort.  Now, the Venator is in an awkward spot.  It's got to be smaller than an ISD and able to represent the Republic as not only an iconic ship, but as the largest ship they field.  The Armada interpretation of the VSD is a pretty terrible ceiling.  Luckily, there is no canon source for the Victory's armament relative to the Venator (or really much else at all.)  If only there were a canon 1100-and-change meter ship to use as a guide...

latest?cb=20160726030137&f=1

Make it with carrier capability, price it higher for that.  Ta-da.  Weaker than an ISD, still something you'd actually build a list around, still something worth playing that makes sense on the sliding scale against things you'd actually see on the table.

I see the main difference with our view points I think, "The Republic's main battleship doesn't belong just in front of refitted medical frigates they used to escort." Everything that I have read on them they are not battleships but armed carriers and that I think is one of the biggest differences in how we are looking at it. As for the VSD being the "terrible ceiling" everything I have read has it was the replacement for the Venator so that would imply that it was better in some way, and it was if not a battleship at least a cruiser. Just based on the art work I am guessing that is supposed to be the MC80? If that is correct according to Wookieepedia (this is where I get my information) it is 1200-1500 meters depending on the individual ship so that is a bit more than 1100 and change. So as it was replaced by the VSD I start my comparison with the VSD, not the ISD that was to replaced its replacement.

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3 hours ago, Ling27 said:

If we are looking at in-universe and real life analogs as reasoning:

- The ISD has no point defense, yet its card has (K,K) (B,K) and (B,B).* The actual main guns of an ISD would never be able to fire at the same forward target as each other, due to them all being lined up in a single line, thus making its guns FAR BETTER at broadsiding. However we see that this isnt the case in Armada, and the ISDs front arc is one of the most dangerous combat zones to be in.

...

I kind of agree, its point defenses are way out of wack for what it should have, so if I had been making it I would have done it different but we have what we have, same with the CR90 being way more powerful than it should be, and if we want I am sure we can nitpick just about every ship there is.

3 hours ago, Ling27 said:

...

- We've never seen how much of the Venator is actually hanger. We know that the portion down the middle is, however, those hanger bays only go as far back as an AT-TE. And, this is only a single deck. So unless the ship is a single deck, which it isnt as we've seen in multiple episodes of Clone Wars, then there is likely enough to uparmor it enough to be viable against 5 or so CIS capital ships.

- We see a single Venator tank 5 or so CIS capital ships. And they are firing at its underside.

- In episode 3, we see that Venators have gun emplacements along their side as one trades broadsides with a CIS capital ship. This gun emplacement has multiple guns. Thus we can conclude that its not just the 6 Heavy Duel Turbolaser Batteries (which are also in a line, making it optimal for broadsiding).

...

I can not speak to any of this as I have never seen it on screen, but how much of this has to do with plot armor? Why are the Storm Troopers so bad shots, when Obi Wan said that only imperial Stormtroopers are so precise. So which are they unable to hit the side of a barn from the inside, or so precise? Plot armor.

3 hours ago, Ling27 said:

...

For gameplay arguements:

- I'm playing on a 6x3ft mat. I dont need much faster than speed 3.

...

I do not even need speed 3, as I almost never go faster than speed 1, but what does that have to do with the price of tea in china?

3 hours ago, Ling27 said:

...

- Its a board game, about a fictional universe, where WW1/2/Age of Sail naval combat, is fought, in space.

...

Again not sure what you are trying to say?

3 hours ago, Ling27 said:

...

- Severely hindering the Venator will not sell product, unless its points are worth it. So even if its the 'biggest medium', if its worse than a Victory, and costs more... it wont get used. Ive seen a Quasar used by a whole 1 player IRL.

...

At least to me I am not "severely hindering" it, I am making it fit what my understanding of the ship is supposed to be. I also do not see it as worse than a Victory as it is different, but I also see it costing less than a Victory as it is not a ship of the line (to use your age of sail reference). I have seen Quasars used a fair amount by multiple players, with as many as three in a single fleet. So what does this have to do with anything except tell us that every area plays differently?

3 hours ago, Ling27 said:

 

...

- Making it a forward firing ship will just make it even more compaired to the ISD ... which is moreso a problem with the ISD, as it is the bar for 'how good' something is allowed to be, and the Victory is the bar for 'how bad' is in the other direction.

Yes, I made it a forward firing ship as most ships in the game are set up that way, but this is pure guess on my part as nothing I have found says were any of the weapons are located. So maybe it is a side firing ship as even though there are more forward firing the side firing are not unheard of. I think I understand what you are trying to say, but I do not agree with the argument that the ISD is good and the VSD is bad. They are different and need to be used in different ways, if you try to use one the same way as the other they will not work out as well as if you use them how they work best (and best can vary from player to player).

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10 minutes ago, CDAT said:

I see the main difference with our view points I think, "The Republic's main battleship doesn't belong just in front of refitted medical frigates they used to escort." Everything that I have read on them they are not battleships but armed carriers and that I think is one of the biggest differences in how we are looking at it. As for the VSD being the "terrible ceiling" everything I have read has it was the replacement for the Venator so that would imply that it was better in some way, and it was if not a battleship at least a cruiser. Just based on the art work I am guessing that is supposed to be the MC80? If that is correct according to Wookieepedia (this is where I get my information) it is 1200-1500 meters depending on the individual ship so that is a bit more than 1100 and change. So as it was replaced by the VSD I start my comparison with the VSD, not the ISD that was to replaced its replacement.

Fair enough.  The top of Wookipedia’s list of roles for the Venator labels it as a battleship.  In their first appearance, they are functioning as close-range battleships.  All canon occurrences of ship-to-ship combat involving Republic warships utilize the Venator and the Venator alone in that role (that I am aware of.)  The Liberty (the namesake of the expansion pack) is listed as being 1200 meters long, so you’re right in that regard.  The Victory-class is CINO; FFG products are the only reason we have canon images for it at all.  Armament, speed, and intended role for the VSD are all legends.  We’ve seen that battery armament doesn’t conform to canon material for the sake of gameplay; I see no reason for EU material to deprive a faction of the only true warship it’s likely to get (which is why it almost certainly won’t.)

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, CDAT said:

I think I understand what you are trying to say, but I do not agree with the argument that the ISD is good and the VSD is bad. They are different and need to be used in different ways, if you try to use one the same way as the other they will not work out as well as if you use them how they work best (and best can vary from player to player).

According to Truthiness’ data, though, the VSD appeared in 2% of all regionals fleets and none made the top 10%.  Whether you chalk it up fundamental flaws, meta, player skill or power creep, VSDs were represented very poorly and performed poorly by probably the most objective measure available.  I love them and believe any ship can do okay in the right hands, but they’ve been shown not to be competitive right now and are a bad act for the most powerful ship in a new faction to be capped by.

Edited by The Jabbawookie

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5 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

Fair enough.  The top of Wookipedia’s list of roles for the Venator labels it as a battleship.  In their first appearance, they are functioning as close-range battleships.  All canon occurrences of ship-to-ship combat involving Republic warships utilize the Venator and the Venator alone in that role (that I am aware of.)  The Liberty (the namesake of the expansion pack) is listed as being 1200 meters long, so you’re right in that regard.  The Victory-class is CINO; FFG products are the only reason we have canon images for it at all.  Armament, speed, and intended role for the VSD are all legends.  We’ve seen that battery armament doesn’t conform to canon material for the sake of gameplay; I see no reason for EU material to deprive a faction of the only true warship it’s likely to get (which is why it almost certainly won’t.)

Yes it has listed Battleship under roles, but when you click on battleship they do not use the term the same as we do. "A battleship was a type of capital ship that not only was armed for fighting, but was also typically designed to transport ground troops, launch squadrons of starfighters, and serve as mobile hospitals." Moving on to the first paragraph it says "The Venator-class Star Destroyer, also known as a Republic attack cruiser or Jedi Cruiser, was a dagger-shaped capital ship used by the Galactic Republic Navy for ship-to-ship combat, capital ship escort, and fighter carrying against the Confederacy of Independent Systems during the Clone Wars. Having eclipsed the Republic's diplomatic frigate, the attack cruiser faced the Separatist dreadnoughts in some of the most well-known battles of the Clone Wars, including those of Sullust, Christophsis and Coruscant." So as I read this it has more firepower than the Diplomatic Frigate, and is used in ship to ship fighting as well as other things so yes it does fight but so do frigates and destroyers today, but they are not battleships and when I think of battleship I do not think of a ship designed to transport ground troops, launch squadrons of fighters and serve as a mobile hospital, but those are rolls that do fit a carrier/assault ship.

Learn something new everyday if you are not careful, I did not look at the header when I went to the Victory pages. I just assumed (should have known better) that if it did not have the cannon/legends tabs at top that it was cannon. However when you look at the top it does say legends in the small print. I am not sure what CINO stands for looking it up none of them fit.

Acronym Definition
CINO Chief Innovation Officer (various companies)
CINO Catholic in Name Only
CINO Conservative in Name Only
CINO Christian in Name Only
CINO Culture Is Not Optional (Christian organization)
CINO Catwoman in Name Only
CINO Chief Inspector of Naval Ordnance (UK)
CINO Coastal Is Number One (Coastal Carolina University; Conway, SC)
CINO Configuration Interaction Natural Orbital
CINO Combined Inventory & Network Optimization

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1 minute ago, CDAT said:

I am not sure what CINO stands for looking it up none of them fit.

Slang for “canon in name only.”  Something that receives the barest of references, without ever being actually featured in media.  In this case, James Luceno scrambled to bring as many EU ships as possible into canon in Tarkin.

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

According to Truthiness’ data, though, the VSD appeared in 2% of all regionals fleets and none made the top 10%.  Whether you chalk it up fundamental flaws, meta, player skill or power creep, VSDs were represented very poorly and performed poorly by probably the most objective measure available.  I love them and believe any ship can do okay in the right hands, but they’ve been shown not to be competitive right now and are a bad act for the most powerful ship in a new faction to be capped by.

OK, I think I can see what you are saying here, yes the VSD has not aged well, it does have some flaws. But I also see it, ignoring the flaws as a fairly powerful ship, so using it as the starting point does not set the Venator up for failure. From what I hear the two biggest flaws that the VSD have is speed/maneuverability (issue one), and anti-squadron firepower. So if you ignore the faults, or just recognize that they are there and say they will not be limits on the Venator using it as the starting point I still feel is viable. Not every faction needs a Super Star Destroyer, and not every faction needs a Hammerhead Corvette. But if you keep each faction unique then I see that making it more enjoyable overall, but to each there own.

Edited by CDAT
grammer and spelling

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1 minute ago, CDAT said:

Not every faction needs a Super Star Destroyer, and not every faction needs a Hammerhead Corvette.

Yet, personally, I feel that every faction should have at least one suitable warship in excess of 100 points for a capital ship game (the Empire has shown that one is plenty enough. 😉)  It's not that the Venator would be bad, it's that that role would be denied to the Republic in contradiction with a whole lot of on-screen naval conflicts (Coruscant, Christophsis, Ryloth, Kamino, Saleucami, Bothawui, and Sullust to name a few.)

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5 hours ago, The Jabbawookie said:

Yet, personally, I feel that every faction should have at least one suitable warship in excess of 100 points for a capital ship game (the Empire has shown that one is plenty enough. 😉)  It's not that the Venator would be bad, it's that that role would be denied to the Republic in contradiction with a whole lot of on-screen naval conflicts (Coruscant, Christophsis, Ryloth, Kamino, Saleucami, Bothawui, and Sullust to name a few.)

I can see what you are saying, and maybe it is my local area that is clouding my thinking. With one exception where I played Rebels to even out the numbers (normally I am Empire) a Rebel large base ship has never been used on the table top. So even though they have three different ships they are not used. The local rebel players are 90-95% small ships with a couple of the medium thrown in to be their "big" warships. So, I can see where you are coming from but I am not sure that it is needed to make the fleets playable as it sure has not bothered the Rebels in my local area. So I am not sure that if pointed out/stated out correctly having the largest ship in a fleet being a medium is going to really make them unplayable, unwinnable or anything like that. And from a sales side of it, if it is stated OK, but you can get three of them for every two large base that the other side gets and that is still balanced that works as well I think, at the same time keeping the fleets from feeling like they are copying each other. And based on the information that I can find on the Venator I can not see how you could justify it being 100+ points. I know that real world does not have much to do with the game, but having said that just looking at real world navies today, a few have Cruiser as their largest ships, most Destroyers, and some Frigates or smaller, so I just do not buy into the each faction needs at least one of each class. Now if it turns out that I am wrong and they make it equal to (or heaven forbid better than the ISD like some say it needs to be) does not mean I will rage quit the game, I may be disappointed in FFG but who has not at one point or another been disappointed in a game company.

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I've played with my Mel's one as a Victory before. It fits on the base... sorta. That would be my only concern with sizing it as medium, how often am I removing it near other ships?

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1 hour ago, Ling27 said:

I've played with my Mel's one as a Victory before. It fits on the base... sorta. That would be my only concern with sizing it as medium, how often am I removing it near other ships?

Other Medium ships?

Not that often, since Large ships sit above it, and Small’s below it 😁

I mean, I removed a key mount from one of my Interdictors and even that height difference is enough for them to fly in closer formation.

 

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2 hours ago, CDAT said:

Rebel large base ship has never been used on the table top.

ArE YoU KidDinG mE?! Rebel Large ship is like 30% of the meta right now with this little admiral named Raddus! 

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Ok, in all seriousness, the problem I see constantly is you wanna compare them to Imperial or Rebel ships that are CURRENTLY in game. Stop. This is a new faction with new states and set up.

 

This ship is most likely going to have the carrier capacity of the Quasar, with some similar stats to that of a Imperial Victory Class SD, but slightly weaker damage, with a focus on buffing Starfighters somehow under the effect that it has a bridge primarily  to command starfighters in battle. You might see some buffs to move and attack bonuses. or even further allowing fighters fielded with the Ventors to be far cheaper, if not going all out to allow a x amount of squadrons to be FREE points.

 

This idea of starfighters being cheaper will also most likely carry over to the CIS, where their starfighters will be much much cheaper, but all the Captiol ships will most likely cost a small fortune in point costs, in order to represent the CIS's vast wealth being supported by the various trade and manufacturing Guilds of the CIS

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33 minutes ago, Zeoinx said:

Ok, in all seriousness, the problem I see constantly is you wanna compare them to Imperial or Rebel ships that are CURRENTLY in game. Stop. This is a new faction with new states and set up.

  

 This ship is most likely going to have the carrier capacity of the Quasar, with some similar stats to that of a Imperial Victory Class SD, but slightly weaker damage,

Did you just...?

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1 hour ago, The Jabbawookie said:

Did you just...?

Yes, Yes I did, but the thing is you are comparing them to FIGHT their counter parts. AKA Venator VS ISD VS MC80. There is a difference between comparing roles vs capacity.

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