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Official Venator Speculation

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So does anyone have any speculation on how the Venator will be sold, will it have some unique duel faction ship cards, where the Republic Venator will be quite more powerful then the Imperial version, but the Imperial Version would allow the ship to fill a role in between the Victory and smaller vessels in the Imperial Armada. Perhaps even a Rebel Alliance version that would fill a role in between the Rebel Assault Carrier and Nebulon B Frigate.

This easily can be applied to some republic fighters as well, such as the Arc-170 and V-Wings, as well as a reverse Fighter, the Rebel Z-95 Headhunter can be added to the Republic Fleet.

Also, has FFG or anyone leaked any images of any of the Clone Wars Armada ships yet?

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I don't expect FFG to do dual faction or,at least, not in the same box. If they sell everything in one box to let you do all different variations of the ship then the lose out on the possibility of getting multiple releases out of it with each distinct enough (new paint jobs, unique upgrades) to get people to buy the ship multiple times. Sort of like what they did with the Chimera expansion. 

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I'll bet the Venator will be a republic only ship, focusing on the two things we see it do... being a carrier, and being a line combat ship. We see it a few times where a Venator battle group engages as line combat ship and hold their own against a larger force, so thats what I would expect to see.

Likely, a Carrier Refit, and a Combat Refit. Combat has more guns, Carrier has more squadrons.

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Posted (edited)

Canon ISD: 72 fighters

Canon SSD: Apparently “thousands” of fighters. Dafuq?

Legends SSD: 144 fighters.

Canon Venator: 420 fighters

 

Since commanding 72 is a squadron value of 4, then the venator should be 5.  Since squadron command of 5 also represents commanding “thousands” of fighters, Venator should solidly be Squadron 5.

 

Command 3 ranges from 5000 crew (MC80) to 46000 crew (ISD), it should be command 3 at 7000ish crew

 

Engineering 4 is probably fair. 

 

Wookiepedia has the max speed for ISD and Venator.

 

Similar in size and shape to the interdictor, but with a huge hangar bay along the top. So 8-9 Hull.

 

The big guns were similar to an ISD. 8 of the heavy turbolaser. But the smaller guns were nowhere near as numerous. So I’d say take the ISD1 and remove a few dice. Maybe the blacks. So 5 dice out the front, 3 out the sides?

 

Shielding probably a bit weaker than an ISD as it’s primary weapon is squadrons, not the ships guns. Also, it was meant to fight in a fleet with ships supporting its flanks. If ISD is 4/3/2, then Venator might be 3/3/2 or 4/2/2.

 

So, 

Command 3

Squadron 5

Engineering 4

Hull 8-9

Shields 4/2/2

Max speed 3, but we can make maneuvering garbage at that speed to let the ISD still be the best there.

5 (or 6) dice out the front, 3 out the sides, 2 out the back. 

Edited by Church14

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24 minutes ago, Church14 said:

Canon SSD: Apparently “thousands” of fighters. Dafuq?

Legends SSD: 144 fighters.

WAIT, Hold up. Your confused by a 19,000 meter long, likely a hundred decks tall, vessel is capable of holding thousands of fighters if fully equipped? It has a crew close to 300,000 persons. I'm more concerned at the apparent ineptitude of the Imperial officers after the fall of the Empire if they seriously thought that they could keep up their charade of massive capital ships with little to no fighter support, because 144 fighters is only 12-6 squadrons (if we go with squadron numbers of 12-24 fighters per squadron). At least a THOUSAND sounds far better than 144 fighters.

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3 minutes ago, Church14 said:

Canon ISD: 72 fighters

Canon SSD: thousands of fighters.

Canon Venator: 420 fighters (blaze it!)

Since commanding 72 is a squadron value of 4, then the venator should be 5.  Since squadron command of 5 also represents commanding “thousands” of fighters, Venator should solidly be Squadron 5.

Command 3 ranges from 5000 crew (MC80) to 46000 crew (ISD), it should be command 3 at 7000ish crew

Engineering 4 is probably fair. 

Wookiepedia has the max speed for ISD and Venator.

Similar in size and shape to the interdictor, but with a huge hangar bay along the top. So 8-9 Hull.

The big guns were similar to an ISD. 8 of the heavy turbolaser. But the smaller guns were nowhere near as numerous. So I’d say take the ISD1 and remove a few dice. Maybe the blacks. So 5 dice out the front, 3 out the sides?

Shielding probably a bit weaker than an ISD as it’s primary weapon is squadrons, not the ships guns. Also, it was meant to fight in a fleet with ships supporting its flanks. If ISD is 4/3/2, then Venator might be 3/3/2 or 4/2/2.

So, Command 3, Squadron 5,Engineering 4,Hull 8-9,Shields 4/2/2

Max speed 3, but we can make maneuvering garbage at that speed to let the ISD still be the best there.

5 (or 6) dice out the front, 3 out the sides, 2 out the back. 

Too many dice. it has a lot less guns than the ISD

Taim & Bak XX-9 heavy turbolaser batteries(60)

Borstel NK-7 ion cannons (60)

Dual heavy Turbolaserturrets (6)

Dual heavy ion cannon turrets (2)

Quad heavy turbolasers (2)

Triple medium turbolasers (3)

Medium turbolasers (2)

Phylon 07 tractor beam projectors (10)

VS.

Dual heavy turbolaser turrets (8)

Medium dual turbolaser cannons (2)

Point-defense laser cannons (52)

 proton torpedo tubes (4)

Tractor beam projectors (6)

I would give it:

Shields: 3/2/2/2 (it has a lot worse shielding than an ISD)

94* arc Guns:  3 red and 1 black (Reds represent Turbolasers, blue represents ion cannons, which the venators do not have, and black represents torpedos and missiles)

 97* arc 2 red 2 black 

86*arc  2 red

Anti-squad: 4 blue or 2 red 2 blue

Command Values:

Command: 2

Squad: 5 

Engineering: 3

movement chart can be similar to an ISD I think with maybe a slightly better chart. This is because it is 400 feet smaller than the ISD, which would make it a medium base that can go speed 3. 

Brace, Redirect, Evade, Contain for defense tokens

Hull should be 7 or 8. If we get an imperial version of this ship, I assume Motti will love it, and so will 7th fleet. 

2 things left, which are upgrade slots and point cost. These go hand in hand. I think it should have one officer slot(possibly two, but that is really good), Defensive retrofit, 1 turbolasers, Offensive retrofit, weapon teams. These upgrades reflect a heavier turbolaser ship with a the ability to slot as an offensive carrier or more defensive. 

Points should put it at about 70, give or take 5 points, Remembering that upgrades will be a necessity, which will push its final price well above 80. You can still swarm with them, it just wouldn't make sense. These are not attack ships, but squadron ships. Most of the Clone wars was done by the squadrons, not capital ships. 

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Ling27 said:

WAIT, Hold up. Your confused by a 19,000 meter long, likely a hundred decks tall, vessel is capable of holding thousands of fighters if fully equipped? It has a crew close to 300,000 persons. I'm more concerned at the apparent ineptitude of the Imperial officers after the fall of the Empire if they seriously thought that they could keep up their charade of massive capital ships with little to no fighter support, because 144 fighters is only 12-6 squadrons (if we go with squadron numbers of 12-24 fighters per squadron). At least a THOUSAND sounds far better than 144 fighters.

Legends was originally 8km long and had 12 squadrons. That’s the one I am most familiar with and would have fit better in Armada. 

 

In 2005(?) or so it changed to 19km and 1000s if fighters.  I think WotC did it for a game. The new canon per Disney has it at 19km. 

 

Though i guess the the original model used in filming was around a 17km size when compared to the ISD models. 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Cleto0 said:

Too many dice. it has a lot less guns than the ISD

Taim & Bak XX-9 heavy turbolaser batteries(60)

Borstel NK-7 ion cannons (60)

Dual heavy Turbolaserturrets (6)

Dual heavy ion cannon turrets (2)

Quad heavy turbolasers (2)

Triple medium turbolasers (3)

Medium turbolasers (2)

Phylon 07 tractor beam projectors (10)

VS.

Dual heavy turbolaser turrets (8)

Medium dual turbolaser cannons (2)

Point-defense laser cannons (52)

 proton torpedo tubes (4)

Tractor beam projectors (6)

I would give it:

Shields: 3/2/2/2 (it has a lot worse shielding than an ISD)

94* arc Guns:  3 red and 1 black (Reds represent Turbolasers, blue represents ion cannons, which the venators do not have, and black represents torpedos and missiles)

 97* arc 2 red 2 black 

86*arc  2 red

Anti-squad: 4 blue or 2 red 2 blue

Command Values:

Command: 2

Squad: 5 

Engineering: 3

movement chart can be similar to an ISD I think with maybe a slightly better chart. This is because it is 400 feet smaller than the ISD, which would make it a medium base that can go speed 3. 

Brace, Redirect, Evade, Contain for defense tokens

Hull should be 7 or 8. If we get an imperial version of this ship, I assume Motti will love it, and so will 7th fleet. 

2 things left, which are upgrade slots and point cost. These go hand in hand. I think it should have one officer slot(possibly two, but that is really good), Defensive retrofit, 1 turbolasers, Offensive retrofit, weapon teams. These upgrades reflect a heavier turbolaser ship with a the ability to slot as an offensive carrier or more defensive. 

Points should put it at about 70, give or take 5 points, Remembering that upgrades will be a necessity, which will push its final price well above 80. You can still swarm with them, it just wouldn't make sense. These are not attack ships, but squadron ships. Most of the Clone wars was done by the squadrons, not capital ships. 

 

 

 

I was assuming - without a lot of justification - that the heavy turbolasers actually do the heavy lifting of capital combat. I was basing it on the fact that they are the only guns normally visible on ISD models and are significantly bigger than any other surface weapon mounting on the ISD.

 

Using that, the main armaments are similar, but the ISD has a significantly higher number of smaller weapons as you pointed out. 

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In my opinion the Venator should really be a broadside ship, we clearly see it in that role in EP3. It also has all its turrets pointed sideways. I think it would be really interesting if both the Venator and Providence were broadside ships (like we interpretated them in our own Clone Wars Set) since it would shake up the boring old "Stardestroyers have big frontarcs and the other faction has broadsides"-type of balancing. I really enjoy playing a Liberty against an ISD and i think having ships with (somewhat) similiar strenghts makes for a more tactical game. The decisions you have to take arent as clear anymore. Also, who doesnt want that epic feeling of two big old battleships duking it out in a broadside battle?

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It will be the Republic's answer to the ISDs if they're going to be a separate faction. If it were me I'd also lean into the old/obsolite-ness of the craft by locking it at speed-2 and de-powering the battery. This thing will have fighter 4 at minimum, likely with two offensive slots as well for that carrier advantage thing that the ISD-I has. Cost will be the thing to test; if it can be fielded in Imperial lists there's need to test Motti with these things swarmed.

Where I'd hit it is probably in the defensive token suite- give it Brace/Redirect/Contain/Contain. Speed 2 and few defensive token options is going to be the hardest sell then for these ships, leaning on their fighters to do most of the work as they trudge across the board. On one hand the VSD has these things and people say they're perfectly fine, so go clone wars! On the other, if Clone Wars offer entirely new Republic commanders then there could be someone to patch these things. Besides, they could also take a natural defensive retro slot to shore up their defenses.

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13 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

It will be the Republic's answer to the ISDs if they're going to be a separate faction. If it were me I'd also lean into the old/obsolite-ness of the craft by locking it at speed-2 and de-powering the battery. This thing will have fighter 4 at minimum, likely with two offensive slots as well for that carrier advantage thing that the ISD-I has. Cost will be the thing to test; if it can be fielded in Imperial lists there's need to test Motti with these things swarmed.

Where I'd hit it is probably in the defensive token suite- give it Brace/Redirect/Contain/Contain. Speed 2 and few defensive token options is going to be the hardest sell then for these ships, leaning on their fighters to do most of the work as they trudge across the board. On one hand the VSD has these things and people say they're perfectly fine, so go clone wars! On the other, if Clone Wars offer entirely new Republic commanders then there could be someone to patch these things. Besides, they could also take a natural defensive retro slot to shore up their defenses.

I agree for the most part, although Venators were said to be able to chase down corvettes, so i would personally give it Speed 3. Make it a bad maneuverchart with maybe -,-,| at Speed 3.

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Just now, >kkj said:

I agree for the most part, although Venators were said to be able to chase down corvettes, so i would personally give it Speed 3. Make it a bad maneuverchart with maybe -,-,| at Speed 3.

At best I'd give it a support team. But I'm stubborn... there has to be a reason the VSD survived the clone wars while the VEN was retired.

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4 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

At best I'd give it a support team. But I'm stubborn... there has to be a reason the VSD survived the clone wars while the VEN was retired.

I still believe that the VSD needs a rework, because as you pointed out the Victory (ignoring fighter complement) was generally a superior ship compared to the Venator. At the same time, I really wouldn't want the Venator to somehow end up worse than the VSD's stats, because I struggle to make VSDs work in a list already.

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17 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

At best I'd give it a support team. But I'm stubborn... there has to be a reason the VSD survived the clone wars while the VEN was retired.

Reason: The Venator was seen as a sign of liberation and of the Republic. The VSD was close enough as a smaller brother to the ISD, and came out late enough into the war that it could easily be seen as an Imperial Vessel.

 

Making Clone Wars ships 'obsolete' would detract from the point of the game. Its not going to be a 1-1 representation of the fictional world. Its going to be what sells product and makes viable factions, and you aren't going to do that by declaring that the GCW is just inherently better.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Norsehound said:

At best I'd give it a support team. But I'm stubborn... there has to be a reason the VSD survived the clone wars while the VEN was retired.

Does THE VAUNTED LORE matter anymore if we're allowing battle droids to fight Stormtroopers and Jedi to fight Luke Skywalker? As a game, I'd be more concerned with how the ship is on the table instead of what the story says it should be.

The LORE says Boba Fett can be hired by any side, but he's imp only. The LORE says that all sorts of Imp admirals died at Yavin, but you could put any of them on an SSD. Should LORE matter so much that it's crafting an incredibly sub par ship because the VSD is your favorite? Do I then get to request "bad" admirals for the next 5 waves because I want Leia to be better?

Edited by geek19

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1 hour ago, Norsehound said:

At best I'd give it a support team. But I'm stubborn... there has to be a reason the VSD survived the clone wars while the VEN was retired.

Yeah its called Tarkin Doctrine. Also, the Victory was much more of a gunship than the Venator and the lore states that the Victorys engines were underpowered. 

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1 hour ago, Norsehound said:

At best I'd give it a support team. But I'm stubborn... there has to be a reason the VSD survived the clone wars while the VEN was retired.

Design philosophy. I waxed verbose in a different thread about it, but basically a ship that carriers 400+ starfighters is not desirable when no enemies remain that use such huge masses of starfighters against them anymore. A ship designed to be part of a fleet and not well suited to operate independently isn’t desirable when there are no large scale fleet engagements anymore.

 

Maybe the Empire found the Victory to be more desirable because it ticked off certain boxes that they needed. 

 

Tech in Star Wars basically does not improve. At least not at a pace that matters between CW and GCW. The Venator isn’t inferior. The Venator just doesn’t do what the Empire wanted. 

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8 minutes ago, Church14 said:

Design philosophy. I waxed verbose in a different thread about it, but basically a ship that carriers 400+ starfighters is not desirable when no enemies remain that use such huge masses of starfighters against them anymore. A ship designed to be part of a fleet and not well suited to operate independently isn’t desirable when there are no large scale fleet engagements anymore.

 

Maybe the Empire found the Victory to be more desirable because it ticked off certain boxes that they needed. 

 

Tech in Star Wars basically does not improve. At least not at a pace that matters between CW and GCW. The Venator isn’t inferior. The Venator just doesn’t do what the Empire wanted. 

Yeah, this. Its the same with the ARC 170. Solid starfighter, but just not in line with the empires doctrine and needs. Just look at how real world weapons have changed. The german army still uses a slowed-down version of the MG42. Why? Because we are not at war anymore and the psychological effects of supression fire are more important than 1200 RPM which just sounds like a chainsaw. Technology depends on the needs. There are many instances in history were people resort back to older technology because of changed prioritys. Nuclear power is probably the most efficient source of power and yet we try to avoid it because of other reasons. (At least here in Germany)

So yeah, newer doesn't always mean better. Need i talk about EAs battlefront 2? 😁 (i actually really like that game but still)

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56 minutes ago, >kkj said:

Yeah, this. Its the same with the ARC 170. Solid starfighter, but just not in line with the empires doctrine and needs. Just look at how real world weapons have changed. The german army still uses a slowed-down version of the MG42. Why? Because we are not at war anymore and the psychological effects of supression fire are more important than 1200 RPM which just sounds like a chainsaw. Technology depends on the needs. There are many instances in history were people resort back to older technology because of changed prioritys. Nuclear power is probably the most efficient source of power and yet we try to avoid it because of other reasons. (At least here in Germany)

 

Then there is weapons tech that hasn't really changed since they first released: Colt 1911, Browning M2, Russia AK-47. (much like it seems in canon when it comes to the YT1300) There has been a trend on bringing back some that were fazed out due to weight, like the M14.. so a possible return of a Venator in a cross faction isn't out of the realm of possibility. 

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I don't want cross faction ships as I personally feel cross faction units just limit varietie and also make factions feel less unique. The one thing I am hung up on is will it be large or medium base if its large its are smallest large ship if medium its are biggest medium. 4 squadrons at least with same upgrade slots as ISD I front arch with 6 or so dice side arch with 4 or so. 9ish hull shilds  like the ISD's.

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