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Captain Lackwit

V-19 Torrent study: How to utilize?

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So, last night I recorded some thoughts from many sessions with Fly Casual Simulator- which, I know, does not have everything and is not perfect. But I don't really have access to V-19s yet- though I likely will soon. Even if Separatists are extremely tempting. Here we go.
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I ran some simulations. The V-19 isn't an amazing fighter, but for five hull, an Initiative 3 V-19 is capable of carrying missiles for about 35 points. Maybe you can spend those points better elsewhere, but as far as I'm concerned, the proper way to use them is to have them barf Concussion Missiles at range 3. After they deploy their missiles, anything else they do is extra or about not dying. That or using their neat Devoted EPT to stay alive, but that rounds it to around 37 points. At that point you're considering putting stuff on other ships. You could only run five of those tops, too. Which is part of the problem. The V-19 might need a point decrease to be competitive.

An I2 V-19 and Z-95 (Rebel) cost the same set of points. The V-19 has a more flexible but stressful dial, the Z-95 has a less stressful but poor repositioning dial. It has 1 less HP, but has shields, unlike its clone wars counterpart. Both take missiles, but the Rebel Z-95 can take an EPT, which the I2 V-19 can't. Here's the tricky part. The Scum I3 Z-95 is easily the best of the bunch. 27 points gives access to a Z-95 with an EPT, illicit, missile and mod. 29 points gives you a V-19 with just an EPT added on. There's been a real point costing error here, because that Z-95 is far, far more valuable. FFG either intends to do something very unique with the clone Z-95, or something is fishy.

The V-19 isn't awful, but it is susceptible to crits. Out of this bunch however, it has the best action bar, and even one-ups the Scyk in that it can Barrel Roll into a Red Evade. But its blues are very restricted. But the Scyk can take a Missile, Torpedo, or cannon. I do not know what precisely the V-19 is meant to do. List-fill/Escort, perhaps. A Dedicated V-19 at I3 costs the same as a naked I3 Scyk, and will at the cost of strain, allow an ally in a side arc to reroll one of their blank dice. Which is a good defensive boon for any wingman, but costs that V-19 rather severely.

What an intriguing little ship. Stressful dial. Needs a way to clear stress. If it can clear stress reliably then it is a very very effective escort. But that it cannot is a severe weakness that holds it back to a considerable degree.

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So, what's it good at? Just concussion missiles? Escorting? How and why does it compete with other ships in its point bracket? How will it relate to the eventual clone Z-95? There's so much to consider here, so much to unpack... Because at the end of the day, this chassis is awful. A complete inability to hard turn at a low speed definitely holds it back, but the biggest issue is just how much friggin' red there is, on top of Strain being an issue if you're daring enough to use Dedicated. I don't know.

I have had a lot of success with Jedi Knights and have yet to access the full potential of the named Delta-7(B) pilots (if you ask me, the calibrated lasers are the better option by far, especially considering point costs..!), and I haven't touched the ARCs much because Fly Casual just doesn't have the crew and gunners to make them interesting to explore on their own just yet, (I have a similar gripe WRT the Scimitar...) so I just can't study these things in depth.

But this backbone list filler fighter of The Republic has got me most intrigued. Nothing else in this game so predestined for failure has ever had me so intrigued. I want to understand how it can best succeed, because right now, its primary competitor, the Vulture Droid, is superior in every way.

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They’re fine. Not great, but can do work and stay alive just a little bit longer than you expect. Useful as a blocker (barrel roll to evade is great for that role) and an enabler. Synched Console to enable double modded Arcs is very nice. Missile  carriers when needed, concussions my missile of choice on them. Dedicated is interesting, my gripe is the cost to equip is, effectively, 7 points.

There never the first ship I add, but every ship past 3 tends to be a Torrent for me. Never make them he centerpiece, make them a blocking pest that you use, and sacrifice, to enable your big guns.

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I'm a dedicated Scum player, well versed in the Z95 and the Scyk both.  Having played *against* the V19 only a few times and never with it, my initial impression is that it is not quite as good as the Z95, but better than the Scyk.  At least in terms of generics.  And that's all I have, but I thought I'd chip in. 

Specifically, yes they crit out faster than Z95s, but are a ton cheaper than Scyks.  I think they are best used as a super cheap swarm filler.  But you do need more than one.  More than two? I think I would treat them much like I do Z95s, three (at least) in a block, with or without support.  A throwaway ship that you cannot wholly afford to ignore.

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1) Bring two Jedi aces of choice.

2) Fill in remaining points with a pair of Gold Squadron Troopers.

3) Throw the V-19s at people and give them a choice: joust them and give the Jedi a free pass onto a flank, or let the V-19s get free shots while the Jedi go evasive and probably find their way onto a flank anyway.

The i2 V-19s are fine provided you treat them like the grunts they are and don't expect the world from them. They exist to give your opponent a blob of hit points to deal with before they can safely move on to your real threats, get in some blocks (and they're better at that than they first look, given that unlike a Z-95, their barrel roll is white) and/or score some free damage. And with 2 agility, 5 health and an evade action, they actually take a reasonable amount of effort to kill.

The problem with the ship is that everything except the i2 is horrendously overcosted, which makes it really one-dimensional. The i3 pays 4 points for +1 initiative and an EPT, where almost every other ship pays 2 points for that privilege. Poor little Tucker pays 6 points just to get a pilot ability -- a pretty good pilot ability, to be fair, but it's not worth that much. He's still better off than Oddball, though, who's paying 13 points for a decidedly average ability, an EPT, and extra initiative on a ship that's not really geared to take advantage of it.

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1 hour ago, migs6000 said:

I've played with them twice now, not impressed. The dial is garbage and it's a crit magnet. 

Both true statements, but they can barrel roll into a red evade, which is actually very powerful for making them hard to kill.

1 hour ago, millertime059 said:

They’re fine. Not great, but can do work and stay alive just a little bit longer than you expect. Useful as a blocker (barrel roll to evade is great for that role) and an enabler. Synched Console to enable double modded Arcs is very nice. Missile  carriers when needed, concussions my missile of choice on them. Dedicated is interesting, my gripe is the cost to equip is, effectively, 7 points.

There never the first ship I add, but every ship past 3 tends to be a Torrent for me. Never make them he centerpiece, make them a blocking pest that you use, and sacrifice, to enable your big guns.

Yeah, that sounds about right. They're some of the most sacrificial fodder in this game. They have a whole lot of, "I REFUSE TO GIVE UP" in them, given they can stack the most crits out of basically any small base for its cost. Very thematically cloney, "I'm definitely going to die, but when, well, that's up to me, not you."

1 hour ago, Kleeg005 said:

I'm a dedicated Scum player, well versed in the Z95 and the Scyk both.  Having played *against* the V19 only a few times and never with it, my initial impression is that it is not quite as good as the Z95, but better than the Scyk.  At least in terms of generics.  And that's all I have, but I thought I'd chip in. 

Specifically, yes they crit out faster than Z95s, but are a ton cheaper than Scyks.  I think they are best used as a super cheap swarm filler.  But you do need more than one.  More than two? I think I would treat them much like I do Z95s, three (at least) in a block, with or without support.  A throwaway ship that you cannot wholly afford to ignore.

Sounds exactly right. Ignoring V-19s is a genuine mistake. If there's several on the field, anyway.

1 hour ago, millertime059 said:

See that’s funny, I’d never run more than 2. If you have three, I’m swapping two for an Arc, or a support CLT Jedi.

Also a very valid option.

20 minutes ago, DR4CO said:

1) Bring two Jedi aces of choice.

2) Fill in remaining points with a pair of Gold Squadron Troopers.

3) Throw the V-19s at people and give them a choice: joust them and give the Jedi a free pass onto a flank, or let the V-19s get free shots while the Jedi go evasive and probably find their way onto a flank anyway.

The i2 V-19s are fine provided you treat them like the grunts they are and don't expect the world from them. They exist to give your opponent a blob of hit points to deal with before they can safely move on to your real threats, get in some blocks (and they're better at that than they first look, given that unlike a Z-95, their barrel roll is white) and/or score some free damage. And with 2 agility, 5 health and an evade action, they actually take a reasonable amount of effort to kill.

The problem with the ship is that everything except the i2 is horrendously overcosted, which makes it really one-dimensional. The i3 pays 4 points for +1 initiative and an EPT, where almost every other ship pays 2 points for that privilege. Poor little Tucker pays 6 points just to get a pilot ability -- a pretty good pilot ability, to be fair, but it's not worth that much. He's still better off than Oddball, though, who's paying 13 points for a decidedly average ability, an EPT, and extra initiative on a ship that's not really geared to take advantage of it.

I think you've really hit the nail on the head here, to be honest. I'm glad others believe that this poor thing is overcosted.


 

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13 minutes ago, DR4CO said:

The i2 V-19s are fine provided you treat them like the grunts they are and don't expect the world from them.

I completely agree with you. I ran  pair of nekkid GSTs in my list this week. They blocked and took pot shots which is exactly what I needed them to do. Tucker is huge fun but knocking him down to 29 to 30 points would be pretty reasonable. The rest are just a bit too expensive for the stats and ho hum pilot abilities they bring. 

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Posted (edited)

I concur with @DR4CO  regarding the white B.Roll... I think its is what makes this ship...in every way. 

I think it's probably the cause of the base-price over the scum Z95, actually.  

Give Expert Handling to a Scum Z Black Sun Soldier for the same cost (29pts) , but then give it an extra ept to a play with.... 

Sounds super fair to me on the v19 Blue Squadron Protector.....just slap a crack shot on that boy and you're gonna take down some pesky Precise Hunters big time!! (I've grown to hate the I3 droids so much I'll come up with anything to bring 'em down...)

Edited by Bucknife

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They look really awful on paper to me. 

The I3 generic is overcosted for sure. (Dedicated might also be) For sure the I3 with dedicated is. 

 

The ain issue is that there's no real reason to add fillers to your list. Yeah, its two blockers instead of one.. that's about it. I'd probably rather have an Arc. 

 

These also don't have a I1. 

If they were actually good at killing Vultures, then they'd have a place. 

 

Clones need a lot more design and mechanic. They're kind of boring. 

OH AND THE V19 PILOT ABILITIES ARE SHHT!! COMPLETELY SELFISH ON A FLIMSY WITH NO REASON TO TAKE THEM. What a waste of design space. 

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1 hour ago, Bucknife said:

I concur with @DR4CO  regarding the white B.Roll... I think its is what makes this ship...in every way. 

I think it's probably the cause of the base-price over the scum Z95, actually.  

Give Expert Handling to a Scum Z Black Sun Soldier for the same cost (29pts) , but then give it an extra ept to a play with.... 

Sounds super fair to me on the v19 Blue Squadron Protector.....just slap a crack shot on that boy and you're gonna take down some pesky Precise Hunters big time!! (I've grown to hate the I3 droids so much I'll come up with anything to bring 'em down...)

I will test this theory. Crackshotting, barrel rolling V-19s designed to hunt Separatist droids. Let's see how it goes...

>BEGIN SIMULATION
...PROCESSING...
...PROCESSING...
...PROCESSING...

...RESULT ACHIEVED - OUTCOME :

That rocked pretty hard, not gonna' lie. Took out seven Energy Shell I3 Vultures with six crackshot Cluster Missile I2 V-19s. Question is, how would this list compare against something tougher than that? Because at the end of the day, Vultures aren't best used on their own- but as a screen for aces, like a flanking Greivous.

18 minutes ago, Dax12387 said:

I want to believe in the V-19 Torrent.

They're the underdogs we want to love.

9 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

They look really awful on paper to me. 

The I3 generic is overcosted for sure. (Dedicated might also be) For sure the I3 with dedicated is. 

 

The main issue is that there's no real reason to add fillers to your list. Yeah, its two blockers instead of one.. that's about it. I'd probably rather have an Arc. 

 

These also don't have a I1. 

If they were actually good at killing Vultures, then they'd have a place. 

 

Clones need a lot more design and mechanic. They're kind of boring. 

OH AND THE V19 PILOT ABILITIES ARE SHHT!! COMPLETELY SELFISH ON A FLIMSY WITH NO REASON TO TAKE THEM. What a waste of design space. 

The named pilots are completely worthless. The entire platform is overcosted. These desperately need a cost reduction by at most 3-4 points across the board if you ask me. But the named pilots, given what they're flying, may need more. I want to run these pilots quite badly but their platform is so bad at being anything but generic there's just no reason to.

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3 hours ago, DR4CO said:

1) Bring two Jedi aces of choice.

2) Fill in remaining points with a pair of Gold Squadron Troopers.

3) Throw the V-19s at people and give them a choice: joust them and give the Jedi a free pass onto a flank, or let the V-19s get free shots while the Jedi go evasive and probably find their way onto a flank anyway.

The i2 V-19s are fine provided you treat them like the grunts they are and don't expect the world from them. They exist to give your opponent a blob of hit points to deal with before they can safely move on to your real threats, get in some blocks (and they're better at that than they first look, given that unlike a Z-95, their barrel roll is white) and/or score some free damage. And with 2 agility, 5 health and an evade action, they actually take a reasonable amount of effort to kill.

The problem with the ship is that everything except the i2 is horrendously overcosted, which makes it really one-dimensional. The i3 pays 4 points for +1 initiative and an EPT, where almost every other ship pays 2 points for that privilege. Poor little Tucker pays 6 points just to get a pilot ability -- a pretty good pilot ability, to be fair, but it's not worth that much. He's still better off than Oddball, though, who's paying 13 points for a decidedly average ability, an EPT, and extra initiative on a ship that's not really geared to take advantage of it.

100% agree.

Did Ani Mace with 2 of them yesterday in a small tournament (24) and went 4:0.

They block, they annoy, they make room for the two aces.

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20 minutes ago, Rangor said:

100% agree.

Did Ani Mace with 2 of them yesterday in a small tournament (24) and went 4:0.

They block, they annoy, they make room for the two aces.

I know this is known to be a good use. but I'd think that you just try and really go for an ace asap, as the two blinkers aren't that scary uncontested. 

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15 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

I know this is known to be a good use. but I'd think that you just try and really go for an ace asap, as the two blinkers aren't that scary uncontested. 

That's my issue with using them with two aces. If something happens to your beefy boys, you're screwed. That's why I like my Poe/L'ulo/Tallie/Greer list with optics so much. If one half dies, they're probably all okay still.

The V-19s lack the general... toolset, to do this.

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1 hour ago, Blail Blerg said:

OH AND THE V19 PILOT ABILITIES ARE SHHT!! COMPLETELY SELFISH ON A FLIMSY WITH NO REASON TO TAKE THEM. What a waste of design space. 

Eh I’ll disagree that all are selfish. I will say that Oddball is a fantastic support piece. Swarm Tactics and Synched Console are both viable upgrades for him. He is expensive though, probably too expensive.

However I’ve used him a few times to barrel roll to evade, gain a target lock, shoot at something then pass the lock to a focused Arc (bonus points for protorp) to lay the hurt. Super action economy, tough to kill little plinker that will sneak some damage through. By far the best named pilot, and not selfish at all.

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Put another point in for the 2 GST + 2 7Bs. Initially ran the 7bs with Wolfe who is a solid piece but is glaringly obvious and easy to hit. The V19's spreading that health across two ships helps keep at least one of them alive after the first pass.

The white barrel role and evade are really what set them apart from Z95s. It really let's them leverage their 3 different blue straights by getting that lateral movement. Sidestepping obstacles helps keep them keep control of lanes.

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1 hour ago, Octarine-08 said:

Put another point in for the 2 GST + 2 7Bs. Initially ran the 7bs with Wolfe who is a solid piece but is glaringly obvious and easy to hit. The V19's spreading that health across two ships helps keep at least one of them alive after the first pass.

The white barrel role and evade are really what set them apart from Z95s. It really let's them leverage their 3 different blue straights by getting that lateral movement. Sidestepping obstacles helps keep them keep control of lanes.

Exactly this.  Wolfe is a big stick but one that’s easily broken, the Torrents are springy saplings to whip your opponent with.

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2 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

I know this is known to be a good use. but I'd think that you just try and really go for an ace asap, as the two blinkers aren't that scary uncontested. 

 

2 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

 

The ain issue is that there's no real reason to add fillers to your list. Yeah, its two blockers instead of one.. that's about it. I'd probably rather have an Arc.

 

Two instead of one is actually a pretty big deal in this regard, though. When combined with the (slightly) higher total hit points and increased agility, they generally take a bit more effort to bring down than an ARC would. And, because they're nameless grunts, they naturally discourage the opponent from going after them. When an opponent sees Wolffe or whoever, they see a damage sink which is dangerous enough to justify nuking, so they do exactly that and the Jedi don't get a lot of time to go to work. They see little nameless V-19s, they often shrug and try to pressure the Jedi -- which is generally a mistake.

It sounds easy enough to "just catch the ace", but we're talking about double-reposition-and-still-have-defence-mods Jedi here. If they don't want to get shot at, it can be pretty hard to force the issue. And if you do fail to catch them, the V-19s score free damage and may even get an advantageous joust when the enemy finally gives up and turns on them.

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1 hour ago, Octarine-08 said:

Put another point in for the 2 GST + 2 7Bs. Initially ran the 7bs with Wolfe who is a solid piece but is glaringly obvious and easy to hit. The V19's spreading that health across two ships helps keep at least one of them alive after the first pass.

The white barrel role and evade are really what set them apart from Z95s. It really let's them leverage their 3 different blue straights by getting that lateral movement. Sidestepping obstacles helps keep them keep control of lanes.

Here's my worry about that, though.
https://i.imgur.com/QbajJXh.mp4
Because that sure is one **** of a roll...

12 minutes ago, TheCeilican said:

Exactly this.  Wolfe is a big stick but one that’s easily broken, the Torrents are springy saplings to whip your opponent with.

Sounds about right! I'll be totally honest, guys. I haven't found an ounce of utility for the clone ARC-170s.

9 minutes ago, DR4CO said:

Two instead of one is actually a pretty big deal in this regard, though. When combined with the (slightly) higher total hit points and increased agility, they generally take a bit more effort to bring down than an ARC would. And, because they're nameless grunts, they naturally discourage the opponent from going after them. When an opponent sees Wolffe or whoever, they see a damage sink which is dangerous enough to justify nuking, so they do exactly that and the Jedi don't get a lot of time to go to work. They see little nameless V-19s, they often shrug and try to pressure the Jedi -- which is generally a mistake.

It sounds easy enough to "just catch the ace", but we're talking about double-reposition-and-still-have-defence-mods Jedi here. If they don't want to get shot at, it can be pretty hard to force the issue. And if you do fail to catch them, the V-19s score free damage and may even get an advantageous joust when the enemy finally gives up and turns on them.

Very very true! I just wish their dials weren't... so bad...

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And sometimes they're not just filler, they're the whole shebang. 

Player at a Hyperspace Trial in Orlando last weekend won the whole thing with Sinker, 104th, and 4 GSTs. He said his opponents usually made the mistake if trying to go after Sinker first, and if he survived (which he usually did) the shots back on the initial joust were devastating. 

He also said that the GSTs were good when they got into the scrum and blocked opposing ships. GSTs are apparently tough enough against unmodded rolls. 

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3 minutes ago, knute said:

And sometimes they're not just filler, they're the whole shebang. 

Player at a Hyperspace Trial in Orlando last weekend won the whole thing with Sinker, 104th, and 4 GSTs. He said his opponents usually made the mistake if trying to go after Sinker first, and if he survived (which he usually did) the shots back on the initial joust were devastating. 

He also said that the GSTs were good when they got into the scrum and blocked opposing ships. GSTs are apparently tough enough against unmodded rolls. 

I can verify this. Five hull lets you tank a few hits to use your focus offensively if you have to.

Come to think of it that's actually a very well put together squadron. Absolutely no mods but... Hm. Just the chassis alone is good stuff.

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