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StormKnight

A charge for DOWNLOADING the replacement rules?

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Seriously? They try to fix the game but we have to pay to even get a downloaded copy which will be pretty much unusable unless we print it for reference?

I've had Tannhauser sitting around unplayed for months, I get all psyched because maybe the new rules will revive it for me, and they expect me to throw good money after bad in the hopes it'll actually improve things?

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well really, i didnt see anything wrong with the rule, ff have just made them more streamlined and made a few things easyer to understand, paying a few pounds/dollars for a download isnt much, maybe if its been in your cupboard that long maybe you have gone off it anyway

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I wouldn't mind paying $10 for a physical copy at all...IF the rules good enough to actually make the game worth playing. I love the setting, I think the game mechanics are cool, but there's just too much wrong for this to get played for me.

I've been totally psyched about the new rules, hoping FFG fixes enough to make it worth it. As soon as the preview came out I set up a board to play a small game solo just to try it.

But there's still too much missing to know what to think. I figured we'd be able to download the rules and see if they looked like an improvement, then buy the book if so. But I really don't know that I can see spending more money for what's basically a patch/errata on a game that might or might not actually improve it.

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FFG wasn't "fixing" the original rules.  The original rules were fine and worked just dandy when the game was first released.  FFG bought out the IP and apparently decided to rewrite the rules to suit their own preferences moving forward.  It's not that the original rules are broken, it just not what FFG wants to do with the game.  If you aren't willing to pay the price, just keep playing with the original rules.

Given the percentage of people who download things in this day and age as opposed to the percentage of people who buy physical products (when there's a choice between the two) I can't really blame FFG for putting a small price on the pdf.  They spent several months writing these revisions, so they want to see SOMETHING come back for their efforts.  If you don't think that's fair, consider that they COULD have just written the rules without regard for existing components and sold Tannhauser 2nd Edition as a non-compatible, new game.  The profits they'd lose from pissed off fans is probably pretty minimal considering all they really invested before now was the time to translate the original rules from French to English - everything else they likely got from TOY at discount rates for bulk distribution over here.

Of the two choices, I think FFG is still making the one that best suits the fans.

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The original rules weren't fine. They work very badly, an Tannhauser isn't selling well because of it. FFG wants it to sell, so - new rules.

And I AM willing to pay the price - for GOOD rules. How the hell am I supposed to know if the rules are good or not though?

And, assuming the new rules go over well, they probably WILL release an essentially incompatible 2nd edition game, since all the tokens and character cards really need to change to make the game playable.

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StormKnight said:

The original rules weren't fine. They work very badly, an Tannhauser isn't selling well because of it. FFG wants it to sell, so - new rules.

And I AM willing to pay the price - for GOOD rules. How the hell am I supposed to know if the rules are good or not though?

And, assuming the new rules go over well, they probably WILL release an essentially incompatible 2nd edition game, since all the tokens and character cards really need to change to make the game playable.

As a previous poster mentioned, it sounds like you are done with this game anyway.  I think there are fans that still enjoy the original rules and are happy with the game as is.  Tannhauser not selling could be for many reasons- slow news updates, lack of future product, the original publisher selling the game, economy, etc and none of these very relevant issues have anything to do with the status of the current rules.

If you don't want to put good money after bad, that is a valid concern but no one is saying you should jump blindly into this, especially given your lukewarm reception to the original game.  One option to consider is to wait for the rules to come out and catch reviews/previews to make your final decision.  I'm sure BGG or other venues will review the revised rules with enough depth to help you decide.  In the end, the game will be Tannhauser and I don't see them changing the rules enough to get someone so dissatisfied with the original game to suddenly convert to a fanboy.

Regarding the need to replace most of the bits in a second edition, it seems pretty clear that this will not be the case.  The new rules are updating the rules for the tokens and existing bits, not replacing them.  Frankly, I don't see the cost benefit of redoing the tokens since they are only placeholders for the existing rules to reference.  Why redo the existing art that obviously works for the game?  I could see them releasing new material and tokens for existing figures (much like the ToY monthly tokens) but I don't see that happening for awhile yet.

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Ok, I was feeling really ticked off when I posted this. I still am, a bit, but less abruptly so.

I'm not sure where the comments that I've been thoroughly excited by the prospect of new rules get people thinking I have no interest in the game.

I say that they'll probably redo components because at current they've got stats that are mostly meaningless on the character sheets (it would be very silly not to print them with the target numbers next to the scores), and because the tokens really shouldn't be just pictorial. Its one of the biggest flaws, having to figure out what each token does. Open a crate, search through multiple reference sheets. Whee.

FFG is redoing the rulebook for a new release. I would hope they'll also improve the components along with, as it would be thoroughly stupid not to.

Ok, they probably won't, will they? gui%C3%B1o.gif

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Hi this is mi first post. I own Tannhauser and seriously if I have to bought a new rule book for me it would ve like 40 dollars because i'am from Argentina and the shippment it's very expensive

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 Personally, I am confused as to where you found a Pay For Download version. All I can find is the free downloadable Revised Edition Rulebook Sample version (pages 8 - 27) and a 96 page printed Revised Edition Rulebook version (not yet available) for $9.95 (Item number TH14) ...

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StormKnight said:

The original rules weren't fine. They work very badly, an Tannhauser isn't selling well because of it. FFG wants it to sell, so - new rules.

I suppose you're entitled to your own opinion.  I've never had issue with the original rules.

StormKnight said:

And I AM willing to pay the price - for GOOD rules. How the hell am I supposed to know if the rules are good or not though?

And, assuming the new rules go over well, they probably WILL release an essentially incompatible 2nd edition game, since all the tokens and character cards really need to change to make the game playable.

You just answered your own question here.  If you are of the opinion that the tokens and character cards MUST change in order to make the game playable, then there is nothing the new rules can do to satisfy you.  The one thing you do know for sure about the new rules is that they don't change any of the other components in the game.

So save your money, sell your copy of Tann and go find a game that does something you enjoy.

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I'm surprised that nobody has pointed out yet that FFG makes the rules for its other games available as FREE downloads. So I have to ask: Why charge for TH's new rules?

I didn't get quite as perturbed as StormKnight when I realized the new rules weren't going to be free, even to current TH owners, but FFG's decision here does baffle and disappoint me.

 

 

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StormKnight said:

The original rules weren't fine. They work very badly, an Tannhauser isn't selling well because of it. FFG wants it to sell, so - new rules.

The original rules -worked-, I played with them since January 2007. However as I also maintained the official FAQ for ToY with another player, I can understand that some rulings could be hard to understand.

Still I think that FFG never, ever, communicated on what Tannhauser really shined on, the scenarios. While I played some games of deathmatch or capture the flag, it's the scripted scenarios provided by ToY and by the fans that were the bread and butter of my skirmishes.

BTW, FFG also published an updated and upgarded rulebook for anima and it was a steeper price !

 

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Steve-O said:

You just answered your own question here.  If you are of the opinion that the tokens and character cards MUST change in order to make the game playable, then there is nothing the new rules can do to satisfy you.  The one thing you do know for sure about the new rules is that they don't change any of the other components in the game.

 

But they do change the other components in the game! Even the brief glimpse we already have tells us that. The stats on the character cards now show you a value to calculate the actual value you need. Now, maybe FFG will realize that's silly before the final improved rulebook gets printed and change the rule, but that seems doubtful.

At this point, I would print out stickers to put on the character sheets so they would show Combat 5 (5+) or something to that effect.

In theory, when FFG actually prints the new edition of the game, they should make a change like that as well. Which, admittedly, doesn't mean they will. Warhammer 40K has been using an equally silly stat system for years even though any reasons for having it that way were left behind back in maybe 2nd edition.

Next, take the tokens. Apparently, what all the equipment does is changing. How do you know what your gun does now? If the answer is "you pass a 96 page rulebook around the table so people can flip through it and try to find their gear', then no, I don't think that's a playable game. The best fix would be to include reference info on the tokens, but failing that good reference sheets will be a must-have. Presumably, the reprinted version will include the reference sheets, at least.

Again, I can fix that. I can make homemade reference sheets. I can print out and apply stickers to 100+ tokens (after I finish peeling off the 100+ stickers I already put on my tokens).

And now I have no idea what the whole point behind this particular path was.

Now, does it make sense that FFG probably doesn't want to post a 100 page rulebook? Maybe. Why the heck is it a hundred page rulebook? The original was posted online, and wasn't nearly that big. Most likely the new has all sorts of extra background info or something. Meh, whatever. I just want the **** rules to the game I bought. Probably a one page update sheet and some improved reference cards would be sufficient to patch the game.

 

BTW, FFG also published an updated and upgarded rulebook for anima and it was a steeper price !

Don't even get me started on that lengua.gif

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StormKnight said:

Next, take the tokens. Apparently, what all the equipment does is changing. How do you know what your gun does now? If the answer is "you pass a 96 page rulebook around the table so people can flip through it and try to find their gear', then no, I don't think that's a playable game. The best fix would be to include reference info on the tokens, but failing that good reference sheets will be a must-have. Presumably, the reprinted version will include the reference sheets, at least.

It was already the case in the previous edition but some member of the Fan community provided reference sheets. In France it was even supported by Take On You and put on their website !

I guess we'll have to wait until the release of the PDF to see actually how far the changes have gone and if it will be -that- difficult to live with them gui%C3%B1o.gif

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You know, I don't get the need to rant about wether the new ruloes are better than the old rules or not.

If you like the game a little clunkiness is tolerable, because you enjoy the setting and the story background. If those don't matter you may as well be playing checkers.

I personaly liked the old rules fine and find the new rules a minor improvement. I've already played a few games using a mix of old and new rules and can say it all went smoothly.

And from that experience I can say the token rules don't need much to maintain compatability.

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How much clunkiness is tolerable in an otherwise good game will vary from person to person. To me, Tannhauser falls just on the "fun enough to be willing to play" side of the line. However, for my main opponent it falls short; she agrees its pretty fun, but isn't worth putting up with the clunkiness.

This is part of the reason I was really excited about the new rules; even some small upgrades are likely to push it up to where it will get played a lot more.

As a side note, the one time I tried to play this at a con with someone else's copy of the game without all the reference sheets and stickers I've printed, it was disastrous. The other player just had no idea what was going on, and it was a pretty much a slaughter (I even just ignored my smoke grenades so he wouldn't have to understand those). Not fun for either of us.

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man, reference sheets? never known anyone use them. as you say each person is different but like mia i have never had a problem with it, sure the new ones may/will iron out some creases but its up to you if you use them, i must say with no disrespect meant to you, you havent seemed to say a thing about how you like the game just how bad it is for you?!!

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I bet before it's all over the rules will be a free download. They have downloads of rules for every FFG game out.  What you won't get is the scenarios that will published in the print version of the new rules. You'll have to pay if you want to download those.

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I would be fine with that tbh.

I intend to get the printed version of the  new rulebook anyway- but would love to check it out and actually play-test it while the thing gets shipped (which is normally over 2 weeks for me :( )

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