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Rubales

Imperial 5 guys

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Hi!

I've heard amazing things about this list, which includes I5 pilots:

TIE/sk Striker: "Duchess" (42 + 2)
    + Predator (2)


TIE Advanced x1: Maarek Stele (46 + 3)
    + Marksmanship (1)
    + Fire-Control System (2)


TIE/ln Fighter: "Howlrunner" (40 + 1)
    + Crack Shot (1)


TIE/ln Fighter: "Mauler" Mithel (32 + 1)
    + Crack Shot (1)


TIE/ln Fighter: "Scourge" Skutu (32 + 1)
    + Crack Shot (1)

 

Have you tested? What do you think about it?

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Posted (edited)

It looks good. My one concern is Multiple bullseye effects - lining up one bullseye isn't too hard, but lining up multiples on the same target whilst simultaneously staying within range 1 of "Howlrunner" is; meaning you might struggle to get mileage out of both effects. 

Provided you're happy treating "Howlrunner's" ability as a nice-to-have on anyone other than her, it should be fine. 

A pure initiative 5 squad is nice, especially since Duchess is pretty nippy. I'd probably form Maarek, "Howlrunner" and "Mauler" into a 'core' group whilst "Duchess" and "Scourge" fly flank - the former because she's the closest you've got to an interceptor, the latter because if you don't have the space to line up a bullseye he might as well go home. I'm not sure if you have enough weight of metal (18 hit points is not that far short of the 21 hits of a 7-ship TIE/ln swarm) to consider Ruthless instead of marksmanship/crack shot for the core group - it might be an easier option to use, especially since you have equal initiative across the squad, and with a high initiative, inflicting self-damage for a kill is likely to drop a target before it engages, sparing you the damage you would have taken from that attack.

Edited by Magnus Grendel

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This list seems interesting. Certainly, initiative 5 offers great opportunities, which is important due to weak parameters in defense of TIE / in (with weak dice rolls the opponent can take off the ship in one combat phase). They are strong in the swarm and when they could decide on the final position on the mat. Personally, I'm not convinved to TIE Striker, if I  would teke some, I prefer to use Countdown and add some device to it, which will allow me to differentiate the enemy's source of damage. With Countdown the enemy needs 4 successful attacks to destroy the ship. It'is very difficult to kill, in fact. Might be enough to do the job with others. With Proximity mines or proton bombs it can be very dangerous. I do not know if I would give a predator, because for her safety I would not let her fly alone, out of swarm, in the range of 3 or more. It could be an easy target for attack.

I would consider changing some ship from INI5 to INI4 eg. Iden Versio or Del Meko. Their skills can be vital to the results of the game. They strongly affect other ships in the swarm. Mithel and Skutu are very good. I did not play Howle often, but I think his skill is really OK. The ability to change dice result of ships such as TIE is highly desirable, because they suffer from a lack of good dice, very often. And it is difficult to do anything without a TL. In addition, INI5 allows you to carry out most attacks, even if the enemy will destroy the TIEs. So there are pros and cons. I used to fly 2*3INI Ties, generic ones, 2*4INI (Mauler, Skutu) and Darth Vader in hyperspace format and the result is fifty fifty (16 games). But I'm not so experienced player in fact (5 months) 🙂

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It's a nice thought. My observation is that if you're going to drop to Initiative 4, it's worth dropping everyone to initiative 4, because when you've got 5+ ships, and 3+ different ships, all with different dials, not being locked into a specific activation order is priceless.

In that case, you're quite correct that the support abilities of the I4 TIE fighters are superior, but you're making up for the inability to exploit I5 against other elite generics and weaker limited pilots.

Taking the equivalent pilots with their nailed-on upgrades:

  • "Countdown"
  • Ved Folso (Fire Control System)
  • Del Meeko
  • Seyn Marana (Marksmanship)
  • Iden Versio

is 192 points (you don't save that much, because "Countdown" and Iden Versio are very expensive for I4 pilots) - which essentially leaves enough for either a device or Shield Upgrade for "Countdown" or Afterburners or Outmaneuver for Ved. The three TIEs are much less shooty but are, like "Countdown", a lot, lot tougher, and can 'splash' that toughness increase onto the TIE/sk and TIE/x1, even at range 3. 

I guess it's a question over whether you prefer playing aggressively with a 'glass dagger' list or more conservatively with a list that's a lot tougher than its stats would suggest.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

One of my concerns about this list is how to fly Maarek. Should he be part of the swarm? (To make the most of the block and Howlrunner's ability)

Or maybe a block of 3 ties, with Maarek and Duchess flying on their own...?

Edited by Rubales
Some typos

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Fly them all together. The init 5 is to PS kill a ship, and maarek and dutchess with there 3 red dice need the howl reroll. You could take Mauler out for Wampa and swarm tactics on Scourge. This gives you another 3 dice attack on first volley, since Mauler require range 1. Also gives you a ps1 blocker if you need it. Wampa can claim a space for your squad.

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I've flown it a few times and enjoyed it quite a bit. I start as a full five ship block. Duchess, with her ability, is super good at maintaining her relative position in the block. She can also easily split off to flank or harass an enemy flanker. In general, you don't worry too much about lining up bullseye arcs. If you get close it will happen naturally. Plus, when you fly in a block, you'll usually have your target in bullseye of one column or the other... if you've banked you have three columns of bullseye arcs and someone's getting hurt.

Target priority for the enemy is non-trivial. Maarek and Duchess are both great late-game, though for different reasons. Howl is always super threatening. Scourge and Mauler hit darn hard for their points and defenses.

The list is light on defenses in general. The lack of Iden means TIEs go pop quickly. Still, the firepower at I5, with only Maarek needing any setup, is superlative. The fact that the other ships shoot before Maarek means they can peel shields for him, and then Maarek can turn two hits into four damage before the enemy knows what hit them.

I also enjoy it because it's a heterogeneous swarm, which appeals to my aesthetics. 

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One bit of amplification, now that I'm in a place where I can type more easily. I felt the need to explain what I meant about Duchess flying in formation with the block.

Normally when you fly a four-ship block, you can comfortably perform any maneuver and maintain the same relative formation. If you're 2x2 and execute a two-turn, you come out of it in a 2x2. While the ships are in different places within the block, the block itself comes out in the same shape.

With homogenous ships, holding that formation with five ships is hard. If you're in a 3x2 facing north (towards the enemy board edge) and everyone executes a 2-turn right, you'll end up in a 2x3 facing east. Your frontage has changed, reducing the coverage of your arcs and potentially ranging out your back ship(s).

Duchess doesn't have to stand for that. Say she's your west-most ship in that example. Instead of dialing in a 2-turn right like the rest of the bloc, she can Ailerons 1-right, then execute a 2-bank right. The result is that she gets back into the front row-- you still have a 3x2, now facing east. Crucially, she doesn't have to spend an action or stress to do so, keeping all your options free. Thus, you can easily fly this list like a swarm list... even though in Maarek and Duchess you have two pocket aces who can detach and do their own thing when the moment is right.

(For the record, while I like Predator on Duchess since you're expecting her to live and get value out of it, if you keep her tight at the beginning it might be redundant with Howl... a subtle variation is to use Crack on Duchess and go to 199, which is occasionally useful.)

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I really want to run this list, but I’m having a hard time trying to figure out if it’s actually better than the 6 TIE Swarm with Howlrunner and Inferno Squadron. 

Assuming ideal circumstances both throw the same amount of red dice, but the 6 TIE Swarm is more survivable thanks to Iden and Del Meeko. It can also use Wampa to block and having an extra ship is great for catching arc dodgers. 

On the other hand, this i5 list has the advantage of choosing movement order and more reliable PS kills. 

Is the reason we haven’t seen this list consistently making hyperspace trial cuts that it’s weaker than the 6Swarm or is it just harder to use/less obvious?

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Placed top 18 in this weekends denver system open

Maarek Stele + Marksmanship + Fire-Control System 
"Scourge" Skutu + Crack Shot 
"Howlrunner" + Crack Shot 
"Mauler" Mithel + Crack Shot 
"Duchess" + Crack Shot

21

"Howlrunner" + Hull Upgrade 
Del Meeko 
Gideon Hask 
"Wampa" 
Iden Versio 
Academy Pilot

 
 

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6 hours ago, pakirby said:

Placed top 18 in this weekends denver system open

Maarek Stele + Marksmanship + Fire-Control System 
"Scourge" Skutu + Crack Shot 
"Howlrunner" + Crack Shot 
"Mauler" Mithel + Crack Shot 
"Duchess" + Crack Shot

21

"Howlrunner" + Hull Upgrade 
Del Meeko 
Gideon Hask 
"Wampa" 
Iden Versio 
Academy Pilot

 
 

Who flew the Imperial 5s list? I cant see it under 18th, but I do see the 6 Swarm under 21st

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On 4/24/2019 at 10:55 AM, ChahDresh said:

I've flown it a few times and enjoyed it quite a bit. I start as a full five ship block. Duchess, with her ability, is super good at maintaining her relative position in the block. She can also easily split off to flank or harass an enemy flanker. In general, you don't worry too much about lining up bullseye arcs. If you get close it will happen naturally. Plus, when you fly in a block, you'll usually have your target in bullseye of one column or the other... if you've banked you have three columns of bullseye arcs and someone's getting hurt.

Target priority for the enemy is non-trivial. Maarek and Duchess are both great late-game, though for different reasons. Howl is always super threatening. Scourge and Mauler hit darn hard for their points and defenses.

The list is light on defenses in general. The lack of Iden means TIEs go pop quickly. Still, the firepower at I5, with only Maarek needing any setup, is superlative. The fact that the other ships shoot before Maarek means they can peel shields for him, and then Maarek can turn two hits into four damage before the enemy knows what hit them.

I also enjoy it because it's a heterogeneous swarm, which appeals to my aesthetics. 

@ChahDresh I'm thinking of taking an Imperial 5s list to an upcoming Hyperspace Trial - the only problem is I actually have zero table time with it right now (compared to a TIE Salad list I've flown more that I'm also thinking of taking). How do you reckon the Imperial 5s stacks up against top Imperial meta lists right now, 6 TIE Swarm or Vader+Fel+friend come to mind?

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I’ve also flown this a few times and had fun with it, though with Crack Shot on Duchess.  I’m thinking I’ll switch to Crack Shot on Maarek, too, to get one crit through more reliably rather than try for multiple crits.  Maybe I’m just not flying against enough low-def opponents.  Except for Scourge, I don’t go out of my way to line up bullseye, but you have enough ships pointed the same way that something usually lines up.

I've usually set up with a tight 4-abreast formation plus Howl alone in the back rank if I’m planning to joust.  It means you need to use a mix of maneuvers when turning but this squad has the dials for it, especially with Duchess on the outer flank.

The initiative and firepower make for a good first engagement, but it gets a bit awkward turning around.  Duchess can swing around quickly with ailerons but the rest will often want to K-turn and they feel pretty vulnerable when they do.  No Leia or other tricks to help...

Blockers can also be pretty awkward for this list, including in an initial joust.  At I5 almost anyone can block you, and if you’re flying in formation one block can turn into a pile-up.  Lots of TIE fighters without actions start popping very easily.  You can mitigate pile-ups somewhat with activation order, but you really need to think carefully about possible blockers and plan around them.

The list is also significantly at the mercy of its green dice — you have I5 but lack of Boost and (optional) formation flying make arc dodging hard.  Not my favorite property to have in a list, but I do love flying TIEs, and all I5 plus a good set of pilot abilities make this list in particular fun to fly.

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10 hours ago, pakirby said:

Vader, Soontir & 3 Academies

I've also heard about it... how do you fly it? with vader besides the academies, and Soontir flanking?

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3 hours ago, Rubales said:

I've also heard about it... how do you fly it? with vader besides the academies, and Soontir flanking?

Academies serve as swarm blockers, vader & soontir flanking...Academies die quick though so they have to get within range 1 and hit hard the first round of engagement.  then k-turn behind your opponent or block them and to try to hit again.  By this time Vader and soontir can start working on the blocked ships or anyone that escaped the swarm.

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Looking at other I-5s, and thinking outside the Hyperspace box, what else would you folks suggest trying?  I've been toying with some variations on this:

  • Maarek Stele + Marksmanship + Fire Control System
  • Rexler Brath + Juke
  • Duchess + Outmaneuver
  • plus 16 points for bid or upgrades (probably either Rexler AdvSensors or Duchess 5thBro).

Any thoughts on where you would take this squad?

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