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Rise of the Separatists - Spoilers/ Q&A

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1 minute ago, HappyDaze said:

The whole thing doesn't really make much sense. Consider that, as we see in CW, masters and padawans didn't necessarily operate close enough to support one another during the war. Padawans were still troop leaders, and their troops were who killed them. If so many of these padawans could survive, then more masters logically should have survived than the less skilled padawans.

Well the odds of hitting the jedi at the right time would be pretty low. And trained force users are hard to surprise. but numbers can help take them out. So i do see a lot of jedi escaping the purge. But I also see a lot dying in the 30 years after. They have no support structure and are not trained to operate that way...

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Posted (edited)
41 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

The whole thing doesn't really make much sense. Consider that, as we see in CW, masters and padawans didn't necessarily operate close enough to support one another during the war. Padawans were still troop leaders, and their troops were who killed them. If so many of these padawans could survive, then more masters logically should have survived than the less skilled padawans.

It would also make sense that many Jedi avoided order 66 by simply being nowhere near clone troopers at the time the order was given. I’d imagine that a good number of them could have fallen into Palpatine’s trap before Obi Wan and Yoda changed the Jedi Temple’s emergency recall signal, but that still leaves a pretty big galaxy for the remaining Jedi to run and hide in. 

Edited by AnomalousAuthor

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14 minutes ago, AnomalousAuthor said:

It would also make sense that many Jedi avoided order 66 by simply being nowhere near clone troopers at the time the order was given.

Except that, by what we've been shown, the genius of Palpatine's plan was in appointing them as leaders of the GAR. In that role, the clones pretty much had reasons to know the locations of the Jedi at all times. While some Jedi may have not been attached to the war effort, the Council itself had decreed that they would lead the GAR, and most Jedi are going to follow the lead of the Council on something that important. I never got the feeling that there were all that many conscientious objectors among the Jedi.

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5 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Except that, by what we've been shown, the genius of Palpatine's plan was in appointing them as leaders of the GAR. In that role, the clones pretty much had reasons to know the locations of the Jedi at all times. While some Jedi may have not been attached to the war effort, the Council itself had decreed that they would lead the GAR, and most Jedi are going to follow the lead of the Council on something that important. I never got the feeling that there were all that many conscientious objectors among the Jedi.

Lots of reasons why every single Jedi wouldn’t be on the front lines of the war.

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5 minutes ago, AnomalousAuthor said:

Lots of reasons why every single Jedi wouldn’t be on the front lines of the war.

And lots of reasons they still would have reported their positions to the GAR like every other off duty officer during a time of war.

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1 minute ago, HappyDaze said:

And lots of reasons they still would have reported their positions to the GAR like every other off duty officer during a time of war.

It’s a big galaxy and travel is not instantaneous. Lots of time to go to ground.

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9 minutes ago, AnomalousAuthor said:

It’s a big galaxy and travel is not instantaneous. Lots of time to go to ground.

Sure, if you get the message before the GAR shows up to kill you.

Also, in newer materials, hyperspace travel is much faster than FFG's times. I ignore that as I like the longer travel times myself 

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On the topic of survivors there was something in the Darth Vader comics about Jedi who were "off grid" and were in deep meditation. These people could have had padawan.

 

One of my players who is a force user was someone who failed to become a padawan so was a member of Agri-corp, whose numbers were quite high I believe.

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One of my characters failed to actually get offically knighted as a Jedi Knight, she had however been battlefield promoted by her Master before her master was killd in a IED attack. She was later offically knighted like how Kanan Jarrus was in Rebels

Of course the only way to survive the new empire at the time was to become the head and owner of KDY after her brother got killed

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6 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

Except that, by what we've been shown, the genius of Palpatine's plan was in appointing them as leaders of the GAR. In that role, the clones pretty much had reasons to know the locations of the Jedi at all times. While some Jedi may have not been attached to the war effort, the Council itself had decreed that they would lead the GAR, and most Jedi are going to follow the lead of the Council on something that important. I never got the feeling that there were all that many conscientious objectors among the Jedi.

Your logic is flawed. If there was only a few then they wouldn't have needed the inquisitors. There were whole temples and holdings throughout the galaxy... a galaxy of billions of billions of people. There were more Jedi than we think there were, and there were huge amounts that would have required being hunted down and killed, the effectiveness in order 66 was ending the rule of the Jedi, breaking their leadership and command structure and turning the galaxy against them, all at once. Palps painted them as traitors because he needed people to turn on them alongside him. You may feel that there are too many survivors, but that's how I feel that the officia numbers say there are millions of star destroyers. It's just an incalculably huge galaxy. 

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I think HappyDaze has a good point that the idea is pretty popular at the moment to have Jedi survive the initial purge and go on into the rebellion era. It does kind of feel odd and I'm willing to say a tad overdone at the moment. I wish we had more prequel stories that didn't always involve Jedi and the will they/wont they survive element of it all. Jedi are crafty, but 30 years is a long time in between those eras. If the inquisitors were out in force either recruiting those who showed force sensitivity or just outright murdering them, there must have been a lot of clean up to do post purge.  But I really, really think they did a good job during those 30 years. There's stories to tell there sure, but they pretty much can't end well. A better story I think to tell is following those that betrayed the order, their own family and joined the empire hoping they could still make the difference they used to make but are slowly consumed by the growing darkness of 30 years of pure evil. 

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That said, what you do in your games is your business and I would totally play in an all Jedi campaign post Order 66. :P 

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15 minutes ago, Drig said:

I think HappyDaze has a good point that the idea is pretty popular at the moment to have Jedi survive the initial purge and go on into the rebellion era. It does kind of feel odd and I'm willing to say a tad overdone at the moment. I wish we had more prequel stories that didn't always involve Jedi and the will they/wont they survive element of it all. Jedi are crafty, but 30 years is a long time in between those eras. If the inquisitors were out in force either recruiting those who showed force sensitivity or just outright murdering them, there must have been a lot of clean up to do post purge.  But I really, really think they did a good job during those 30 years. There's stories to tell there sure, but they pretty much can't end well. A better story I think to tell is following those that betrayed the order, their own family and joined the empire hoping they could still make the difference they used to make but are slowly consumed by the growing darkness of 30 years of pure evil. 

Only 19 years actually between Order 66 and Death Star I Go Boom.

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4 hours ago, Khazadune said:

Your logic is flawed. If there was only a few then they wouldn't have needed the inquisitors. There were whole temples and holdings throughout the galaxy... a galaxy of billions of billions of people. There were more Jedi than we think there were, and there were huge amounts that would have required being hunted down and killed, the effectiveness in order 66 was ending the rule of the Jedi, breaking their leadership and command structure and turning the galaxy against them, all at once. Palps painted them as traitors because he needed people to turn on them alongside him. You may feel that there are too many survivors, but that's how I feel that the officia numbers say there are millions of star destroyers. It's just an incalculably huge galaxy. 

I realize that everything has scaled way up since the early days of SW and they use that as reasons for more Jedi to survive, but it felt better to me in the olden days where Kenobi and Yoda were all that were left by the Battle of Yavin. It seems these days that the Rebellion could have had whole teams of not-quite-Jedi running around. I've even played that game, but it's not my favorite approach to SW.

Also, if you go by the FFG books, the galaxy is super-vast and the Empire (and, presumably, the Republic before it) barely controls a small fraction of the worlds out there. This doesn't seem to fit what we saw in the original trilogy, and even most subsequent works still have the Republic/Empire as controlling most of the galaxy. With the FFG version, there would be space to hide anything and the Empire wouldn't be able to really search for anyone.

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38 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

I realize that everything has scaled way up since the early days of SW and they use that as reasons for more Jedi to survive, but it felt better to me in the olden days where Kenobi and Yoda were all that were left by the Battle of Yavin. It seems these days that the Rebellion could have had whole teams of not-quite-Jedi running around. I've even played that game, but it's not my favorite approach to SW.

Also, if you go by the FFG books, the galaxy is super-vast and the Empire (and, presumably, the Republic before it) barely controls a small fraction of the worlds out there. This doesn't seem to fit what we saw in the original trilogy, and even most subsequent works still have the Republic/Empire as controlling most of the galaxy. With the FFG version, there would be space to hide anything and the Empire wouldn't be able to really search for anyone.

Likely because it strains credibility for there to be as many Jedi as there were and there ability to have really fast reflexes and non of them survive Order 66? I call BS. And even Obi-Wan says Vader hunted them down. So many surviving Order 66 makes sense. But by A New Hope yeah only an incredibly small handful are left.

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The answer to the question of "how many Jedi survived Order 66?" is quite simple really: There's however many the story of your campaign requires.

If your campaign doesn't require that there were any survivors beyond Obi-Wan and Yoda, then those two are it, and that characters like Ahsoka Tano and Kanan Jarrus simply didn't survive because your campaign's story doesn't need them to.  On the contrary, if your campaign is based around a handful of Order 66 survivors who are part of an "underground railroad" system of fellow Jedi survivors, then there's going to be far more than what canon's currently listed.  If your campaign requires that Mace Windu survived his exit or that Aayla Secura didn't get brutally gunned down in RotS, then they both count as O66 survivors.

It's pretty unlikely that Lucasfilm will ever give out an exact headcount, so as to leave the room open for additional survivors as future stories require or dictate.  In Legends, there's been a number of Order 66 survivors who escaped death for a variety of reasons, from being on a solo mission to one instance of a Clone Commando squad doubting the order's validity and thus not immediately acting on it (this was before the ham-fisted handwave of all the Clone Troopers having bio-chips implanted to enforce obedience).  We also know from the films that the carrying out of Order 66 wasn't fully instantaneous as Yoda had time to sense and react to the surge of Jedi deaths rolling across the galaxy, more than enough to put him on guard when a pair of Clones sought to enact Order 66 on him.

Besides, it's not like Lucasfilm hasn't retconned the "who survived this event?" before.  Prime example, prior to TCW being aired, everyone knew that Maul had died at the end of TPM due to being cut short by young Kenob, marking him as the first Jedi to confront and defeat a Sith Lord in a millennia.  And it's entirely possibly that Palp's death in RotJ could be retconned in the upcoming The Rise of Skywalker, in spite of his being killed over Endor being a known fact for over three decades.  Though if Episode IX does bring Palps back, hopefully it's done in a far more elegant method than how the Dark Empire comic series handled it; though personally, that's a pretty easy hurdle to clear given how poorly Dark Empire handled pretty much everything it touched.

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14 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

Except that, by what we've been shown, the genius of Palpatine's plan was in appointing them as leaders of the GAR. In that role, the clones pretty much had reasons to know the locations of the Jedi at all times. While some Jedi may have not been attached to the war effort, the Council itself had decreed that they would lead the GAR, and most Jedi are going to follow the lead of the Council on something that important. I never got the feeling that there were all that many conscientious objectors among the Jedi.

 

13 hours ago, AnomalousAuthor said:

Lots of reasons why every single Jedi wouldn’t be on the front lines of the war.

 

7 hours ago, Khazadune said:

Your logic is flawed. If there was only a few then they wouldn't have needed the inquisitors. There were whole temples and holdings throughout the galaxy... a galaxy of billions of billions of people. There were more Jedi than we think there were, and there were huge amounts that would have required being hunted down and killed, the effectiveness in order 66 was ending the rule of the Jedi, breaking their leadership and command structure and turning the galaxy against them, all at once. Palps painted them as traitors because he needed people to turn on them alongside him. You may feel that there are too many survivors, but that's how I feel that the officia numbers say there are millions of star destroyers. It's just an incalculably huge galaxy. 

 

3 hours ago, Drig said:

I think HappyDaze has a good point that the idea is pretty popular at the moment to have Jedi survive the initial purge and go on into the rebellion era. It does kind of feel odd and I'm willing to say a tad overdone at the moment. I wish we had more prequel stories that didn't always involve Jedi and the will they/wont they survive element of it all. Jedi are crafty, but 30 years is a long time in between those eras. If the inquisitors were out in force either recruiting those who showed force sensitivity or just outright murdering them, there must have been a lot of clean up to do post purge.  But I really, really think they did a good job during those 30 years. There's stories to tell there sure, but they pretty much can't end well. A better story I think to tell is following those that betrayed the order, their own family and joined the empire hoping they could still make the difference they used to make but are slowly consumed by the growing darkness of 30 years of pure evil. 

Not every Jedi led clone troopers. In fact, there was at least a few who didn't trust Clones and refused to lead them. 

 

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51 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Not every Jedi led clone troopers. In fact, there was at least a few who didn't trust Clones and refused to lead them. 

True but traps were laid immediately by the Empire to destroy the oddballs who somehow managed to be not be near a clone. Also the anti-jedi propaganda was just about to go into full swing and also Vader was ready and willing to go kill some of those fools as vengeance for Padme. This went on for 19 years as was brought out earlier. Still not much hope for those that inherently didn't trust the clones/war. Sure some survived but those are some rough odds having the weight of a galactic empire and its citizens potentially out for blood against the Jedi.

I do wonder if Luke had ended up in the academy, would he have been spotted for his force sensitivity and shipped off to the inquisitors like we see in Rebels?

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Posted (edited)
43 minutes ago, Drig said:

I do wonder if Luke had ended up in the academy, would he have been spotted for his force sensitivity and shipped off to the inquisitors like we see in Rebels?

Who knows. Vader may have already dispatched the Inquisitors by then. I don’t know of any evidence that points to their continued existence during the OT period. In fact, Tarkin’s mention of Vader being the last of the Jedi kinda supports the destruction of the Inquisitorius at some point prior to Ep IV.

Kind of off topic, but I’ve always been curious just how common of a name Skywalker is on Tatooine. There may be tons of them on that dirtball for all we know. Otherwise, it would have been a terrible idea to leave Luke’s surname intact.

But, between his name and force sensitivity, as you mentioned, I would imagine that he’d have come to someone’s attention pretty fast at the academy, regardless.

Edited by AnomalousAuthor

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On 5/3/2019 at 3:24 PM, Tramp Graphics said:

 

Not every Jedi led clone troopers. In fact, there was at least a few who didn't trust Clones and refused to lead them. 

 

I've rewritten Onslaught at Arda IV to be a Clone Wars adventure set at the training base of Master Rahm Kota, and the rebel political member turned into a Senate Representitive for Cardia.

Having at least 1 "Jedi general" in the party is a convenient reason for being assigned to escort the demolition team in act 1, but I've started to shift to the idea of starting in act 2, as the Temple investigation team looking for the traitor Kota's padawon spotted as per the end of act 1.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/3/2019 at 5:23 AM, Daeglan said:

Well the odds of hitting the jedi at the right time would be pretty low. And trained force users are hard to surprise. but numbers can help take them out. So i do see a lot of jedi escaping the purge. But I also see a lot dying in the 30 years after. They have no support structure and are not trained to operate that way...

I thought the Clones were so successful initially because the Jedi didn't detect (or weren't looking for) any emotional malice in the Clones, who were just doing what was 'natural' (following orders) to them?

Anyway, I do believe that there are too many prominent Jedi survivors but in the grand scope of the universe, there's beyond trillions of living people in a galaxy of thousands of star systems. I think the handful that we know of surviving is reasonable, although when the stories do focus enough on Jedi during that period that it does feel like just about any Jedi with a name tag managed to come out of it.

My only big issue is when so many of them end up in the Rebel Alliance. Sure, it's the obvious group for them to join with, but it makes Luke's journey feel kind of... underwhelming in hindsight? Especially when Ashoka, Kanan and Starkiller were on a first name basis with the top brass. 

Edited by Arbitrator

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