Jump to content
Boom Owl

Inert Fat Han

Recommended Posts

If we are talking about counters, everything that can flip damage cards should have a positive matchup against this list since R2 requires at least one damage card.

So we might see more Zertik Strom, Director Krennic or Than Kyrell. Honorable mentions goes to Seyn Manara for completely bypassing Han's defensive dice modification.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Tempeljaeger said:

Honorable mentions goes to Seyn Manara for completely bypassing Han's defensive dice modification.

Really, anything that can put a tractor token on him without sacrificing an attack. That's why I mentioned Seventh Sister crew earlier, as you just need to move within range of where he already is before he moves to tractor him if he 0 stops. A couple Tugboats remove even the option of him not getting a tractor token on him. There used to be a couple S&V lists that made good use of tugs prior to the point changes, iirc. Petty Officer Thanninson pilot has a pretty wide net to tractor him and a 4 die attack to punish him with if he stops. A couple deterrants like that pretty much remove the ID/Kanan shenanigans from the equation because to try it would be suicide.

Good luck modifying 0 defense dice, I don't care how many re-rolls you get.

Strain sources like Cody or K2-B4 to a lesser extent. Not quite as powerful as a tractor beam token, but they do persist until the penalty is paid or he executes a blue maneuver instead of white.

There are lots of tools that can really screw with him that the meta could start playing around with. Its just not something already solved like 4 Phantoms with Juke and a Crack Shot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay, so Fat Han is back and the sky is falling?

Please don't get me wrong here: from reading this thread I understand that Fat Han has got a great maneuverability, can recharge shields, reroll dice and use force tokes.

That's strong! But it's also just one ship at the cost of 3 normal ships. It has a damage output of 3 dice per round.

How can anyone lose 200:0 against this, seriously? How is there even enough time for Han to kill 4 enemies with his crappy 3 dice.

(The A Wing doesn't count. It's a 2 attack ship that will explode into dust as soon as an enemy looks at it with an angry facial expression)

You guys need to learn some basic tricks. Fake an injury! Play the clock! Just roll on the ground and call for a referee, whenever you're in front with points. That's how italy has won quite a few world cups in soccer.

I remember that large base ships used to be unusable a few weeks ago. They were much too expensive. No one would actually want to fly a Fat Han shortly after the cost adjustment either.

But right now it's back. It happens to be THE NIGHTMARE even though everyone out there is still playing 4 Sigmas?

Alright! Don't worry. FFG is probably going to take Hans Illicit Slot away. Problem solved.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Flybywiresystem said:

Please don't get me wrong here: from reading this thread I understand that Fat Han has got a great maneuverability, can recharge shields, reroll dice and use force tokes.

That's strong! But it's also just one ship at the cost of 3 normal ships. It has a damage output of 3 dice per round.

evidently you did not read the thread

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

So a friend and I've playtested it yesterday. His Fat Han vs my Resistance 5. I won 200:0 every time. 

 

Its a list that completely depends on a player playing out of his mind and positioning perfectly. Unless its flown by a world level player its going to get torn to shreds. 

Edited by Alpha Kenny Buddy
Clarification

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Alpha Kenny Buddy said:

So a friend and I've playtested it yesterday. His Fat Han vs my Resistance 5. I won 200:0 every time. 

Its a list that completely depends on a player playing out of his mind and positioning perfectly. Unless its flown by a world level player its going to get torn to shreds. 

Interesting results, and promising. I'm going to admit that maybe I overreacted.

And yet, it chafes me when people say, "It takes tight flying and perfect positioning," when you don't have to pick your end position until i6 of the activation phase. That just seems disingenuous. Especially when you can add regen to the mix. I don't know. It still reeks of 1.0 combo-wing that, in my opinion, doesn't belong in Second Edition.

Only thing to do now is try it out myself. We'll see if I can make some time for it this week.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Alpha Kenny Buddy said:

So a friend and I've playtested it yesterday. His Fat Han vs my Resistance 5. I won 200:0 every time. 

 

Its a list that completely depends on a player playing out of his mind and positioning perfectly. Unless its flown by a world level player its going to get torn to shreds. 

I'm not sure that "positioning perfectly" is an accurate description. It's moreso positioning to keep as many options open as possible. This forces the opponent to split arcs or risk Han getting behind your entire squad. The opponent has a far greater burden for "perfect positioning".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Crit Happens said:

I'm not sure that "positioning perfectly" is an accurate description. It's moreso positioning to keep as many options open as possible. This forces the opponent to split arcs or risk Han getting behind your entire squad. The opponent has a far greater burden for "perfect positioning".

Eeeh not really. Against something like my Resistance 5 Jake has either the option to completely run away or die as soon as he engages because there's no hiding against I5 ships. 

So what ever happens its suddenly Han against 4 ships, even if you are a semi competent players its super easy to set up kill boxes against him in that situation. 

This is a list that can be a monster in the right hands, but I'll quit X-Wing the moment FFG starts nerfing lists that are interesting and only a problem in the hands of an expert. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Alpha Kenny Buddy said:

Eeeh not really. Against something like my Resistance 5 Jake has either the option to completely run away or die as soon as he engages because there's no hiding against I5 ships. 

So what ever happens its suddenly Han against 4 ships, even if you are a semi competent players its super easy to set up kill boxes against him in that situation. 

This is a list that can be a monster in the right hands, but I'll quit X-Wing the moment FFG starts nerfing lists that are interesting and only a problem in the hands of an expert. 

Speaking from experience, no.  I try to judge myself fairly dispassionately, but I would consider myself an above competent player.  Han moving last with Force and and regen and all his re-rolls and obstacles granting extra defense does not take damage quickly at all, even with multiple range 2+ arcs.  If you catch him in the open with no re-rolls and no obstacles and 3 arcs on target, sure, he'll take a lot of damage.  All his maneuverability, though, means you don't get lots of high quality shots.  You get 3 dice vs 2-3 dice with re-rolls, and Han regens one per turn.  You end up netting 1-2 damage per turn when you're getting continued shots, but you're often taking more in return.  A substantial number of things have to go right for the non-Han player to make it work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For the most part, looks like this is easily beaten by most competently flown 5+ ship lists or ships with multiple seismics. There's your answer. It ain't Shotgun Dash. Won a tournament because it was unexpected. Kudos to that guy for creating such a stir. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Cloaker said:

For the most part, looks like this is easily beaten by most competently flown 5+ ship lists or ships with multiple seismics. There's your answer. It ain't Shotgun Dash. Won a tournament because it was unexpected. Kudos to that guy for creating such a stir. 

1) One beautiful change from 1.0 to 2.0 was that most lists did not need hard counters anymore. The favorable/unfavorable matchups got changed to a point where any list could beat any list. There are very few outliers, and Fat Han is one of them.

2) Even if that wasn't the case: It does not matter whether you beat it with list X. What matter is that Fat Han brings back bad elements of 1.0. What matters is that Fat Han relies to very large part on the FatHan-player making unforced errors to lose, or not making them to win. What matters is that FatHan removes much of his opponent's agency.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

1) One beautiful change from 1.0 to 2.0 was that most lists did not need hard counters anymore. The favorable/unfavorable matchups got changed to a point where any list could beat any list. There are very few outliers, and Fat Han is one of them.

2) Even if that wasn't the case: It does not matter whether you beat it with list X. What matter is that Fat Han brings back bad elements of 1.0. What matters is that Fat Han relies to very large part on the FatHan-player making unforced errors to lose, or not making them to win. What matters is that FatHan removes much of his opponent's agency.

tumblr_p89q4dlquT1xpdwtoo3_r1_500.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, kris40k said:

tumblr_p89q4dlquT1xpdwtoo3_r1_500.gif

yes

edit: the arguments on why he is have been put forward often enough. If your point is that FatHan does not simply win certain matchups then I don't believe you. If your point is that there are also other outliers... I never said otherwise. If your point is that there are many so-called outliers then I'd be interested in knowing what you consider to be others.

Or we can just not have any interesting discussion and throw memes around.

Edited by GreenDragoon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At the end of the day it’s either becoming a problem or it isn’t. We aren’t going to find out until the next major event when the WAAC crowd attempt to netlist their way to victory ;) 

A quick search of tabletop to and list fortress hasn’t shown any victories but there haven’t been any extended events of a reasonable size since the UK open to give us any data. Until that happens, as Moff Tarkin said, “this bickering is pointless”.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, AlexW said:

Lists that narrow the meta by forcing players to bring options “A” or “B,” even if A and B  are very strong counters, are generally really bad for the game.

The hope for 2.0 was always that counters didn’t rely heavily on list building.

Actually, I consider anything that encourages more cards, upgrades, pilots, etc. that are not already typically used in common lists, or to consider other options for their list that may not seem to be optimized just in case to cover possible situations (like running into FatHan) to be a good thing. Spices up the meta by bringing in new flavors.

Otherwise you just end up with everyone playing hyper-efficient lists like 4 Phantoms.

47 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Or we can just not have any interesting discussion and throw memes around.

Well, FatHan pretty much is a meme at this point.

I can understand the argument that "it brings back some of the bad elements of 1.0" except it really doesn't other than his ability to double-reroll his defense die against all attacks while getting passed a Focus. Ways of countering that have been laid out, and arguments that "I shouldn't have to counter it, it shouldn't exist" are just going to be met with a resounding "meh" and a shrug from some people, me being one. His ability to hard stop can be a liability for him, since it allows you to put tractors on him or remove his obstacle. Tools exist that should allow you to force the Han player's movement or get punished otherwise. Players were putting up wins with S&V Tugboats no too long ago and I think there is room there for people to start experimenting again before screaming for nerfs.

People ******* that Luke Gunner finally found a home in competitive play are just kinda sad, since he's so stupidly expensive, only recovers 1 Force token per round, with a max total pool of 2, and will burn through that fairly fast if he's spending anything on defense or trying to remove the stress from 0 stopping or flying over debris. Which results in him either removing stress, rotating the arcs, or converting a Focus result, but not all three. So, its very situational on what he needs done that round, but he's not doing everything. Would the 2E game be better without him? Meh. /shrug. I could take it or leave it. As someone who plays a lot of bowtie arcs, being able to predict where I need my arc to be before then is not a problem. It is an advantage, but not a game breaking one.

He doesn't have 8 possible movement positions, he has 2. The 0 stop which everyone knows he can do, and whatever he has dialed. He is not as slippery as like SNR Kylo where you can drastically change your starting position before your dial even matters. If you successfully block a large base, then you cut his options in half, now he has a the bump or 0 stop + boost options, which area really not hard to cover. If you missed the block, that's on you.

So the opponent has plenty of agency in being able to predict FatHan's dial, and setting up situations where FatHan is punished in either case, or herding him.

Honestly, I'm not worried about it, as it takes too much execution for most to pull off. I would be worried no matter what Nathan Eide put down on the table across from me. And from GSP's reporting on the UK System Open Jack flew very well and got lucky where he needed it to actually win.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay.  You have 3 ships.  

1.)  Guess his dial, commit one ship to the block.  That ship doesn't get a shot.  I hope you guessed right.  

2.)  Have your other ships on arc at the stop position, but also have them on arc at the blocked position.  

3.)  Have no obstructions in the way from your two shooters.

4.)  Be at range 2.

5.)  Have modifications.

Do all the things, and you probably do 3 damage to Han, one of which he regens next turn.  That's about 2 damage per turn, but you likely lose a ship before you kill Han, then you're getting 0-1 damage net per turn.

Nevertheless, if your dice hold up, and you consistently do the things in this list almost every turn, you've got a shot.  If you miss a block and let Han loose, you're in bad shape.  If you miss shots a couple turns, you get way behind. If dice are rough and you lose a ship early, you're out of luck.  Han just has to not be an idiot.  It's totally fair.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, kris40k said:

consider anything that encourages more cards, upgrades, pilots, etc. that are not already typically used in common lists, or to consider other options for their list that may not seem to be optimized just in case to cover possible situations (like running into FatHan) to be a good thing. Spices up the meta by bringing in new flavors.

 Otherwise you just end up with everyone playing hyper-efficient lists like 4 Phantoms

I agree, but this isn’t what I think Han does, especially if the answer is to “bring 5 ships."  That cuts out a lot of lists.

Edited by AlexW

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...