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Inert Fat Han

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2 hours ago, Sixter said:

I hope FFG leaves Han alone, he´s still an underdog in the meta.

 

1 hour ago, Gilarius said:

So, don't over-react to this list because it 'won'.

Both of these remarks miss the point. There are two different factors:

One is the performance of the list, how often it won, how often it showed up in cuts, how many people played.

But the other component is whether it is fun to play against, whether it is an NPE.

You can't dismiss the second with an argument about the first.

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Is Kanan-Han any more of a negative playing experience than flying against I6 aces who move last? Han loses a shield every time he uses Inertial Dampeners. Sure, he can regen one shield a turn with R2D2, but that´s only after Han has taken hull damage which means he´s very close to giving up half points at least. There is still a 39% chance Han has to flip a damage card regaining the shield with a re-roll. Han does not have a gunner like back in the day, so his damage output is not as reliable. If Han goes down to half points he has to score a lot of points in return, because the rest of the list will obviously not have a high damage output.

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, Sixter said:

Is Kanan-Han any more of a negative playing experience than flying against I6 aces who move last? Han loses a shield every time he uses Inertial Dampeners. Sure, he can regen one shield a turn with R2D2, but that´s only after Han has taken hull damage which means he´s very close to giving up half points at least. There is still a 39% chance Han has to flip a damage card regaining the shield with a re-roll. Han does not have a gunner like back in the day, so his damage output is not as reliable. If Han goes down to half points he has to score a lot of points in return, because the rest of the list will obviously not have a high damage output.

Yes.
 

Let's be clear.  Fat Han is Soontir Fel with 13 health and 2 force tokens and free rerolls and a 360 degree arc and regen and can fly over debris without stress or stop dead if he's going to be bumped or in arc or just feels like it.

Edited by TheCeilican

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12 minutes ago, Sixter said:

Is Kanan-Han any more of a negative playing experience than flying against I6 aces who move last? Han loses a shield every time he uses Inertial Dampeners. Sure, he can regen one shield a turn with R2D2, but that´s only after Han has taken hull damage which means he´s very close to giving up half points at least. There is still a 39% chance Han has to flip a damage card regaining the shield with a re-roll. Han does not have a gunner like back in the day, so his damage output is not as reliable. If Han goes down to half points he has to score a lot of points in return, because the rest of the list will obviously not have a high damage output.

IDK Han is an I6 that doesn't have to decide where he is maneuvering till after everyone else other than second player I6s if he's first player... Han's ability also works on R2-D2, the probability of him rolling hit twice is less than 39%. It is 37.5% to roll it once, 14% to roll it twice (which is what is needed for Han to be negatively impacted by R2's ability).

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, TheCeilican said:

Yes.
 

Let's be clear.  Fat Han is Soontir Fel with 13 health and 2 force tokens and free rerolls and a 360 degree arc and regen and can fly over debris without stress or stop dead if he's going to be bumped or in arc or just feels like it.

Yeah, other I6s are certainly formidable (and rightfully so), but personally I think there's a difference between dialing in a maneuver then tailoring your actions based on what the opponent's done, and just not deciding your maneuver until after everyone's moved, with no real, negative consequences.  Add to that 360 firing and constant rerolled, and I'm not sure how anyone can even think to compare this build with Soontir or Wedge.

Edited by JJ48

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7 minutes ago, gennataos said:

I found Triple Upsilon threads infinitely more useful when people talked less about "NERF!" and more about how to counter them.  A couple people have done that in this thread, for which I'm grateful.

🤨 Maybe lead by example then. Toss an idea out.

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3 hours ago, Gilarius said:

Vs 43 phantoms in the top cut (this time)? And that's after they were nerfed!

FAt Han might need looking at; Juke Phantoms definitely need looking at again! My personal fix for Juke drops it to 1pt but spends the evade to use it, but that would mean changing the words so it won't happen.

I'd also change the Kanan/ID interaction so the stress is applied after Kanan's window.

Or you have to announce the use of Inertial Dampeners at the start of the Activation Phase.

In lieu of the above, the point cost could always be increased by a few points.

At 1 point, it might be a little undercosted.

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13 minutes ago, gennataos said:

I found Triple Upsilon threads infinitely more useful when people talked less about "NERF!" and more about how to counter them.  A couple people have done that in this thread, for which I'm grateful.

I haven't listened, but I heard gold squadron had a fascinating breakdown of how to beat inert han...

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1 minute ago, Tlfj200 said:

I haven't listened, but I heard gold squadron had a fascinating breakdown of how to beat inert han...

I've, uh, basically stopped listening to all podcasts, so I'm not sure if that's snark or not.  

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20 minutes ago, gennataos said:

@GreenDragoon already did that.  I think he covered it pretty well.

I tried to push in that direction, but that never works

7 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

I think you didn't read his post entirely but just saw he had suggestions (to tide over till this build of Han gets adjusted). Go back and read it.

Whether they adjust it or not, whether it is to tide over or not, for now adjusting gameplay and discussing tactics/strategies is all we can do, anyway

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I'll be honest - I haven't played against this certain build of Han. I played against typical R2-D2 Trick Shot Han, with Lando as a wing man. My opponent flew it excellently, and baited me into some bad maneuvering decisions, and scored 200-0 against me.

Now, I have thought a lot about that match, and I have a lot of ideas on how I could have flown better. But to me, combining the regen with perfect-knowledge Inertial Dampeners and boost is just...look, I'm willing to put in the work practicing against it - that's what I did facing 1.0 Fat Han. It will be miserable, just like last time. And I'll probably never beat it, just like last time.

It just sincerely feels like it goes against everything Second Edition has built itself up to be. Which I understand is subjective. Maybe a new ship will come out that can fight it, just like the Decimator did last time, but I had higher hopes for Second Edition.

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Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

I think you didn't read his post entirely but just saw he had suggestions (to tide over till this build of Han gets adjusted). Go back and read it.

I did read the whole post.  I'm not sure why you'd assume otherwise.

I played Nathan at Adepticon and thought it was a clever trick.  He presented Han early, with what appeared to be a clear intent for me to chase him while Norra and Jake follow behind and pester my list.  I did get early damage on Han, but didn't take the bait.  Instead I tried to kill Jake, but A-Wings can sometimes can be A-Wings with a lot of green dice and just say, "Nah".  I kept Norra at range for the most part and killed her, but it was already too late. 

I didn't think the list was unbeatable, nor a NPE, (although the pilot, Nathan, is definitely miles better than me), but I failed to recognize what it would try to do before turn 0.  In retrospect, I'd have set up rocks entirely differently.  I'd have slow-rolled and put myself in more of a block than my usual spread formation to assist with range/arc control against Han.  Also, had I won the initiative roll, even Nathan suggested the game could have ended up very different (I ran Poe/L'ulo/Tallie/Red Expert).

I've played against some locals who have run something similar (at least with R2-D2 + ID), and didn't find it particularly challenging.  Block and shoot Han a lot and he dies.  He only really gets to play in the rocks if you let him.

Neither my local nor Adepticon experiences were against the Jack Mooney version, but it's at least a starting point.  From what I recall of the Adepticon final, Nathan needed some critical dice rolls to even make it close and Jack definitely needed some hot dice to get past top 8.  This isn't 1.0 Ghost/Fenn, it's not even triple upsilons.

21 minutes ago, AlexW said:

He also said it was an NPE, though.

I...don't care?  It might be.  If it's a thing I think I'd have to worry about, I either try to beat it or punt against it, right?

Edited by gennataos

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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Whether they adjust it or not, whether it is to tide over or not, for now adjusting gameplay and discussing tactics/strategies is all we can do, anyway

So back to 1.0 winning in listbuilding then... Fine... Take Thane (preferably with Biggs to keep him alive longer, squaddies with selfless needed as well) or someone else that can consistently slip damage under shields (Thane can once that first damage card is applied and R2 crew get to work) and hope they don't get alphad. Don't engage if you can only ensure one ship shooting, he will out trade you in damage. If going the "swarm" route, less than 5 isn't going to help unless you have some sort of ability that bypasses Han's defenses (Dooku crew is meh, save him for the Han role when possible but it won't really help during the Engagement phase) but more than 5 won't have the individual hp to tank a shot (Han is single modded minimum, double modded normally)... Play for time and hope you opponent doesn't half point anything...

Or basically what you outlined in your post...

Edited by Hiemfire

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Posted (edited)

@gennataos

I really enjoy discussing counter play and how to beat things. 

But this is one of those times that its just a discussion thats been had dozens of times before, in game answers exist there just not particularly nuanced.  

It would probably be most useful for me to dig up previous posts on how to deal with I6 Coordinate Boost Ghost/Fenn or Advanced Sensors Nym / Slam Miranda. Its not the same but the counter play concepts are similar. 

Edited by Boom Owl

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Posted (edited)
56 minutes ago, gennataos said:

I've, uh, basically stopped listening to all podcasts, so I'm not sure if that's snark or not.  

just block han, and bring a lot of arcs, and/or split your arcs at all times to cover all the possible places he could go.

E.
Z.

 

Edit:

OH! or just always have seismic charges! We all know every list can bring those! Just do that.

E.

Z.

Edited by Tlfj200

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4 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

just block han, and bring a lot of arcs, and/or split your arcs at all times to cover all the possible places he could go.

E.
 Z.

Ok guess its time for me to go searching through old posts on how to fight High Init High Hp High Mobility Fat Turrets. 

The answers are super interesting I promise. 

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1 minute ago, Boom Owl said:

Ok guess its time for me to go searching through old posts on how to fight High Init High Hp High Mobility Fat Turrets. 

The answers are super interesting I promise. 

Made a quick edit, that added even more interesting options/strategies!

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