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Boom Owl

Inert Fat Han

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1 minute ago, Biophysical said:

It's worth your time. 

... unless your time is worth a lot more than mine.

Mostly, it's just that I have a really long list of movies/shows to watch, and this one keeps getting bumped down the list.

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4 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

One of these days I need to get around to watching that.

It isn't bad... Han's a complete **** in the early third of the film, but grows a bit during the rest of it.

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Posted (edited)

Things got a little crazy in here the past few pages haha. 

Just gonna go ahead and say I haven't actually seen to much actual panic about Fat Han. Trust me this isn't what X-Wing panic even looks like. You will know it when you see it. Go back to posts from the height of 1.0 ( Wave 11+) to see what a proper 24/7 Dumpster Fire Panic looks and smells like. Its gonna be ok folks. 

Vast majority of players who think Hand Brake Han is out of place in 2.0 (myself included) are laser focused on a few specific mechanics. I promise no one wants to take your I6 White Boost Reroll Turret Toy from you. Han Solo is one of my favorite characters from the movies to. Remember all those cool lines he says and how good of a Millenium Falcon pilot he is? Woooohooo. 

Infinite selectable parking brake, the 360 turret, and the infinite Regen...thats the stuff that belongs in the 1.0 dumpster burning brightly next to Nym, Miranda, Ghosts, RAC, Dash, Timewalk Assaj, Wookies, Soontir, Grand Inq, Poe, and even the actual coolest star wars character ever Supernatural Kylo Ren. 

Edited by Boom Owl

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2 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

 

Infinite selectable parking brake, the 360 turret, and the infinite Regen...thats the stuff that belongs in the 1.0 dumpster burning brightly next to Nym, Miranda, Ghosts, RAC, Dash, Timewalk Assaj, Wookies, Soontir, Grand Inq, Poe, and even coolest star wars character ever Supernatural Kylo Ren. 

And multiple x7 Defenders.  Which will could reasonably make a big comeback if Fattest Han takes off.  We don't want that world.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Biophysical said:

Interesting for who?

I think the bottom line is that this discussion boils down to a point you made in another thread a couple months ago in a discussion with, iirc, Sunitsa, who said he really thought that builds like Dash and Kanaan+Fenn, were a lot of fun for him and that he misses them in this edition.   Your point (again, as I essentially remember it, though will probably butcher it) were that there were players that liked the card game that X-wing brings with it and there were players that liked the maneuver aspect.    I think there are a lot more players that prefer the latter (the central mechanic in this game to me is the dial and the planning phase, so that makes sense),  but there is a population that prefers the former and that's where some of this conflict comes and probably can't be resolved.

Edited by AlexW

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17 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Just gonna go ahead and say I haven't actually seen to much actual panic about Fat Han. Trust me this isn't what X-Wing panic even looks like. You will know it when you see it. Go back to posts from the height of 1.0 ( Wave 11+) to see what a proper 24/7 Dumpster Fire Panic looks and smells like. Its gonna be ok folks. 

This so much.

I wrote somewhere in this thread that there is a point where an NPE becomes a problem, dumpster fire level. Han is not there yet, he just shows all the signs of the potential for one. That doesn't change that he should really do some fitness.

But hey, it's just extended and I won't have to play against him if I don't want to.

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49 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Sounds fair enough, except

Whether or not my list has those particular tools is a matter of list-building, and already decided by the time I discover what my opponent is playing.  Or are you suggesting that someone bringing these cards only has to choose when to activate them when playing against this list?

What I'm asking is, how is this list more interesting rather than simply more irritating?  How is my strategy against this list different from my strategy against a slimmer Han build?

Yes, whether or not you have the tools is a matter of list building, and when and how you apply what tools you did bring is a matter of playing the match out and making the correct decisions. Bringing some Seismics doesn't mean the FatHan player is going to concede to you, your decision making during Turn 0 and beyond is the part where you peel apart the puzzle. 

As far as the strategy, its going to be different than a slimmer Han build based on what FatHan's build can do, such as his 0 stop shenanigans, R2-D2, Luke, etc. Also a bigger piece of the prize is held in busting the Point Fortress/Pinata and there is less outside offense to worry about with just a single 2-die attack wingman.  Honestly though, I can't answer for you if you find this "irritating" or not, or "challenging" or not. That's on you.

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1 hour ago, kris40k said:

As far as the strategy, its going to be different than a slimmer Han build based on what FatHan's build can do, such as his 0 stop shenanigans, R2-D2, Luke, etc. Also a bigger piece of the prize is held in busting the Point Fortress/Pinata and there is less outside offense to worry about with just a single 2-die attack wingman.  Honestly though, I can't answer for you if you find this "irritating" or not, or "challenging" or not. That's on you.

The 0-stop I'll grant you, but I honestly don't see how R2-D2 or Luke really change the puzzle that much.  R2-D2 will make the fight take longer, but is he really doing anything that would alter how I handle Han, besides having to do so for more turns?  The only thing interesting he's really adding is the possibility that he could backfire and expose a damage card, but that possibility is lessened quite a bit by the fact that he's on Han.  As for Luke, it seems he's actually reducing the amount of thinking involved on both sides rather than increasing it.  Without Luke, I have to consider how I might be able to either dodge out of Han's arc or handle the shot if I can't/won't.  With Luke, same thing only without the possibility of dodging.

I mean, I'm not completely against upgrades that only help a ship survive or simplify decision-making, as long as they don't go overboard, but let's not pretend that they're adding additional depth and tactics to the game, either.

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Posted (edited)
54 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

The 0-stop I'll grant you, but I honestly don't see how R2-D2 or Luke really change the puzzle that much.  R2-D2 will make the fight take longer, but is he really doing anything that would alter how I handle Han, besides having to do so for more turns?  The only thing interesting he's really adding is the possibility that he could backfire and expose a damage card, but that possibility is lessened quite a bit by the fact that he's on Han.  As for Luke, it seems he's actually reducing the amount of thinking involved on both sides rather than increasing it.  Without Luke, I have to consider how I might be able to either dodge out of Han's arc or handle the shot if I can't/won't.  With Luke, same thing only without the possibility of dodging.

I mean, I'm not completely against upgrades that only help a ship survive or simplify decision-making, as long as they don't go overboard, but let's not pretend that they're adding additional depth and tactics to the game, either.

R2-D2 crew goes hand-in-hand with the 0-Stop, because that's how you recover your shield to be able to ID again after your shields get burned off. Without R2, the 0-Stop has a simple solution. Solves itself, really. However with R2 you can't write-off the possibility of the 0-stop. 

Luke completely changes the way you engage as well. You can't rely on blocking/stress/etc. to prevent rotation of the arcs, so you need to consider than when you engage. For example where once you might be able to arc-dodge around with Soontir, now you have to consider what you want to do: feign with him at Range 3/obstructed to try to bait damage away from your other ships who are applying damage? Or just dive into Range 1, burn the shields off to try to push crits through with the rest of your list (if you are also running someone crit heavy like Maarek, RAC, Redline, etc.) to cripple Han and just consider him an expensive torpedo that will eat a shot or two?

There are lots of variables to cover everything but those cards certainly change up the way things play out. 

 

Edited by kris40k

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19 minutes ago, kris40k said:

R2-D2 crew goes hand-in-hand with the 0-Stop, because that's how you recover your shield to be able to ID again after your shields get burned off. Without R2, the 0-Stop has a simple solution. Solves itself, really. However with R2 you can't write-off the possibility of the 0-stop. 

Luke completely changes the way you engage as well. You can't rely on blocking/stress/etc. to prevent rotation of the arcs, so you need to consider than when you engage. For example where once you might be able to arc-dodge around with Soontir, now you have to consider what you want to do: feign with him at Range 3/obstructed to try to bait damage away from your other ships who are applying damage? Or just dive into Range 1, burn the shields off to try to push crits through with the rest of your list (if you are also running someone crit heavy like Maarek, RAC, Redline, etc.) to cripple Han and just consider him an expensive torpedo that will eat a shot or two?

There are lots of variables to cover everything but those cards certainly change up the way things play out. 

I see.  Those two upgrades do remove a lot of the interesting bits of the game!  Thanks for the explanation!

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4 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Did it have cassian?

Nope, he had Nien Nunb though it didn’t seem relevant and he said Chewie would have been better.

He beat me in the semi.  I didn’t get much say at all in the outcome of the match as he held all the cards from minute one to the last dice roll and had complete control.  I’m not sure what needs to change on Han but something does.

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Might I also say that it's odd that someone who has already said that they dislike Hyperspace because it limits options should claim that a card makes the game more interesting because...it limits options.

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Infinite rerolls (extra mod your attack dice before even Tl/focus is already bad for the game), especially on just any die roll is absolutely stupid to begin with. Everyone else has a ability usage once per turn limit or a charge limit. 

 

4 hours ago, svelok said:

A lot of posts in this thread seemed to have missed that point, so just to make it clearly: Han in hyperspace is basically fine, he is strong without being degenerate, and not suffering from any problems that can't be fixed by minor point adjustments. But lots of elements of Hyperspace Han are borderline problematic... unlimited rerolls, unlimited regen (R2-D2), etc. The hyperspace card pool keeps those abilities in check, where they're not able to accelerate enough to create a negative experience, so it's all well and good. The addition of Kanan in Extended, with the Kanan+ID change a month ago, catalyzes all those borderline problematic card abilities into one super problematic sum total, that is more damaging to the game than the sum of its parts.

You do realise that Kanan is en route to Hyperspace, with the Ghost rerelease?

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5 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Might I also say that it's odd that someone who has already said that they dislike Hyperspace because it limits options should claim that a card makes the game more interesting because...it limits options.

Which card are you straw manning me to have said something that I didn't? We were discussing R2-D2 crew and Luke Gunner.

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1 minute ago, kris40k said:

Which card are you straw manning me to have said something that I didn't? We were discussing R2-D2 crew and Luke Gunner.

37 minutes ago, kris40k said:

Luke completely changes the way you engage as well. You can't rely on blocking/stress/etc. to prevent rotation of the arcs, so you need to consider than when you engage. For example where once you might be able to arc-dodge around with Soontir, now you have to consider what you want to do...

Luke doesn't add any new options; he just removes some of the ones you may have had.  That is, he limits options.

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Luke doesn't add any new options; he just removes some of the ones you may have had.  That is, he limits options.

That's what you chose to takeaway from a discussion about how he changes the dynamic of how to engage him with ships that would normally be used to arc-dodge?

Not, "he encourages you to think outside the box," just "he limits options."

Edited by kris40k

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3 minutes ago, kris40k said:

That's what you chose to takeaway from a discussion about how he changes the dynamic of how to engage him with ships that would normally be used to arc-dodge?

Not, "he encourages you to think outside the box," just "he limits options."

Exactly.  I had considered the first phrase, but then I realized that if you're facing a ship with a turret arc, you're already at least considering what may happen if the turret rotated, so he's not actually granting you anything.  Add to that the fact that he removes from his player any need to ever perform the Rotate action, and yeah, "he limits options" sounds just about right.

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, Dr Moneypants said:

Re: the title of this thread.

 

Seriously, are we not doing phrasing anymore?

It's phrased fine. The discussion is over a Rebel Han pilot build that has nearly all the slots filled (Fat) which has Inertial Dampeners (Inert) + Kanan as its core in extended.

Edited by Hiemfire

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