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Inert Fat Han

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Posted (edited)

It is important that this Han is worth 2-4 ships, and that has two important consequences:

  1. He should not be able to arc dodge all, even with his choice of 8 positions;
  2. He should not be able to fight near the rocks that he wants due to final salvo.

If he's unobstructed then he only gets one green die. One green die will take damage. Dealing more than 1 damage per turn (at 42% for a single ship having arc at r1-2) can't be regenerated. In theory.

In practice and if the Han player is as good as the other one, Han will take r3 shots and - once ahead on points - stay around the rocks. A 2-3 green dice Han with 2 force and the reroll is much harder to put damage into.

Accordingly, the problems of the list are that

  • the defense of Han is unexpectedly strong (factually 2-3 dice with 1-3 mods: force, evade/focus, Han's reroll);
  • Han's reroll is not charge-based;
  • the R2-D2 regen is unlimited and not charge-based (because of the previous point damage will be slow, and R2 can regenerate that one damage infinitely);
  • the consequences of i6 movement choice (Inertial Dampeners) can be completely ignored due to Kanan and R2-D2;
  • it turns into a waiting game whenever the Han player wants;
  • the burden of execution is on the opponent due to no-consequence-i6-movement -choice with 8 options;
  • on top of that, Luke Gunner assures that Han gets to shoot;
  • and finally the 144pts(+bid!) mean that you have to go against Han and half-point him as soon as you lose a ship, because your ship is often more than the below 50pts of Han's wingman.

Initially I was against calling it an NPE because it is not yet widespread or successful enough. But this build forces the opponent to castle, to wait, to run, and ultimately not to play the game that most of us signed up for.

 

So what are possible strategies to reliably win against the list until points get changed? I don't know, but these come to mind:

Listbuilding

  • i6 and a deeper bid -> Wedge, Poe, QD, Vader, Soontir, Anakin
  • if not i6: bring enough ships, 4 or more
  • 4dice attacks with double mods -> Proton Torps, HLC, Homing, Prockets. Range1 shots will be difficult to get consistently
  • generate crits -> Proton Torps, TIE advanced, CountDooku (crew), marksmanship (vs large base is much easier, but worthless for other matchups)
  • removing green dice -> Wedge, Outmaneuver, Tractor Beam, Strain
  • control elements -> ion (but requires 3!) or stress
    • ion means he can't do any of his tricks
    • stress means he can only focus, so no boost. However, that's more difficult due to Kanan

Tactics

  • place all rocks into a corner/to a side that you'll NEVER visit;
  • try to go to final salvo, castle, wait, let Han come to you;
  • once he is in range or close, fan out to cover all 8 positions (or 2 position-clusters) with shots;
    • then realize that he has way more than 8 positions on each turn, because it's 8 positions per maneuver!
    • However, see below*
  • try to block the boosts after stop: that is possible with a single ship due to the large bases overlapping. It also means you cover the 4th position with a range 1 shot!;
  • you can't do the same for the boost after movement unless you know 100% which maneuver was chosen;

 

*His movement choices are less distinct than for a small base due to the overlaps. That means if you cover one kind of maneuver, you'll often cover all of them including the boost. Still important to keep in mind that the boost might change the shot to a different range band - including out of range!

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Edited by GreenDragoon
added "i don't know"

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I ran a cheaper (read: no Luke gunner) version of this ship last night. The flexibility granted by the ID + Kanan was simply ridiculous, and R2-D2 didn't cause me any issues at all. However, the build is very vulnerable to critical hits, as getting a Blinded Pilot crit defanged me at the worst possible moment. That said, I did have my opponent's ship on the ropes (Wedge on one hull, and a Ghost on 2 hull), so it could have swung either way.

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While blocking the stop/boost moves is an option, it takes a ship out of the fight when Han chooses to perform his dialed in move.  It's one less ship shooting at a high defense high HP, regenerating ship.  That's plainly a bad situation, and it's about the best you can hope for.  

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6 hours ago, Antipodean Ork said:

With a bit of luck FFG won't let Kanan Jarrus and Han Solo exist in the Hyperspace format at the same time, so this becomes an extended format only issue!

Whats interesting is that even without Kanan is remarkably flexible. The Stress shuts down the boost and restricts next turn options at least. 

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Accordingly, the problems of the list are that...

 

12 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Initially I was against calling it an NPE because it is not yet widespread or successful enough. But this build forces the opponent to castle, to wait, to run, and ultimately not to play the game that most of us signed up for.

I think you explained all the problems quite well.  They are all problems that 2.0 was supposed to fix, and not only that, but directly break a lot of the rules put in place to prevent those NPE experiences (no charges, for example)...

I'd add that a list doesn't have to be widespread or even have a track record of success to be an NPE.  Dengaroo came out and was pretty clearly a problem even though it got beat and took a bit to catch on.   Also, listening to Tyler's discussion of the Han (with his own list that most people are concerned with!) make it pretty clear.   It's also telling to me because those phantoms can put a lot of time on target in comparison to other lists and he still felt that breaking through was a struggle and wouldn't have been able to do it in a regular game round.

13 hours ago, Mep said:

Interesting, until you lose all your shields. Not a fan of R2 crew. It is illegal in at least 12 states to go exposing yourself like that.

The mechanics of the list work quite well once you lose your shields, especially due to R2D2, who is unlikely to actually have his own negative consequences since Han allows a reroll.

Edited by AlexW

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I flew against this yesterday. It's very strong, but it has a high floor. One mistake, and it can easily be over. But if that mistake isn't coming, it's a very negative play experience.

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12 minutes ago, AlexW said:

I'd add that a list doesn't have to be widespread or even have a track record of success to be an NPE.

That's important to emphasize. I should not have and didn't want to imply otherwise.

Success/high frequency changes it from 'just' NPE to a problem that needs attention. NPE can be enough to get that attention, but if it's also good then it requires a very good lool by FFG

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A bit late now, but Han really should have been charge-based, with regenerating charges (maybe start with 3?)  That way, he could still use his ability when you needed him, but constantly abusing it would start limiting your options quickly. 

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48 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

A bit late now, but Han really should have been charge-based, with regenerating charges (maybe start with 3?)  That way, he could still use his ability when you needed him, but constantly abusing it would start limiting your options quickly. 

 

It should've specified "When attacking or Defending". You don't realize how many non-attack/defense die rolls this game has until you fly Han. I had a game where I flew him over a rock, rerolled to take damage and didn't, lost my action, so I couldn't put out the console fire, but with a reroll, ducked out of that too, then R2 got me back a free shield when I rerolled the die to expose a card.

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The sky is not falling, but Han Solo's illicit slot is. Which would be weird, given how it is a smuggler's ship and there aren't many issues with the other pilots having said slot. But there is precedent for this, as Leebo lost his C3-PO slot. And no, C3-Leebo was not broken, but it used the interactions of the cards in a way that was not intended by the designers. Given all the unintended interactions, I can't imagine Han retaining Inertial Dampeners.

TBH, I'm fine with this being the big bogeyman that we're panicking about. It's an easy-to-fix problem that demonstrates 2e's superiority in dealing with a list that tries to render a dial decision irrelevant (can we get an F in the chat for Tripsilon?). And even then, this list offers a lot more counterplay than Dash Roark. And as Gordon Berg points out, there is some strange Deja Vu as to countering the problem of TIE Phantoms with a Fat Han.

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Posted (edited)

Han was exactly like this in 1.0. I don’t get the fuss. Edit, I know he didn’t get ID. don’t shout at me. I just do t think it’s that big of a deal.

Edited by Estarriol

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Initially I was against calling it an NPE because it is not yet widespread or successful enough. But this build forces the opponent to castle, to wait, to run, and ultimately not to play the game that most of us signed up for.

 

Edited by Tlfj200

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21 minutes ago, gjnido said:

Seismic Charges help.  And they only cost 3 pts

I have genuinely been looking at Seismics in extended lists if there's a good ship that can take them.  Taking away rerolls from a chunnk of the board makes a big difference.

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47 minutes ago, Estarriol said:

Han was exactly like this in 1.0. I don’t get the fuss. Edit, I know he didn’t get ID. don’t shout at me. I just do t think it’s that big of a deal.

White stops are really, really strong.

Also, any ship that was exactly like a strong 1.0 ship would absolutely destroy 2.0.

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4 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Welcome back to large ship turret combo wing!! With multiple mods.

It's one, it can still be contained. Heck, it is contained, to extended. On top, it is much more easily contained.

There is no need to panic, but there is definitely need to put bit pressure on FFG.

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Delete the Illicit slot from the Rebel Falcon. That simple. I'd like them to actually yank it from every ship not in Scum at the same time for that matter. Maybe it'll speed up the addition of more functional and viable Illicits if they don't have to take upgrades and pilots from 3 separate factions into account when they develop cards for the slot.

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