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Snap Shot

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53 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Nope.  Snap Shot is neither a torp nor a missile attack.  And if it had been, it would have been 0-3.  Like in 1e.

No, he doesn't make the range 0-3; he just increases or decreases the range by 1, with 0-3 being the hard limits.  If the range is just 2, he could have made it 1-3 if it were a missile or torpedo. 

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3 minutes ago, C3gorach said:

Nope, adding a die IS a modification (RR pg.9)

Adding results is, rolling an extra die isn't. Read the section you cited a bit further. It is a few bullet points down from the list of dice mods.

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4 minutes ago, C3gorach said:

Nope, adding a die IS a modification (RR pg.9)

- Adding a result is a modification.

- Rolling additional or fewer dice is not a modification.

From the same section you referenced in the RR.  So Trick Shotting a Snap Shot works fine.

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If I have Wedge with Snap, all my enemy's ships that move before me are going to avoid ending at range 2 in my arc if they can.  If I have a Phoenix AWing I can move anywhere I want and try to catch an enemy moving after me in my Snap zone.

Because Init has a huge impact on this upgrade's effectiveness, do we think this could be a variable priced upgrade that costs more on lower Init pilots?  Possibly ranging from say, 7 pt for Init 0 down to 1 pt for init 6?

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, pickirk01 said:

Because Init has a huge impact on this upgrade's effectiveness, do we think this could be a variable priced upgrade that costs more on lower Init pilots?  Possibly ranging from say, 7 pt for Init 0 down to 1 pt for init 6?

Since it is a bonus attack, it happens one time only, which strongly limits its effectiveness regardless of pilot initiative. And it has quite few restrictions already. And it can happen with i6 when a low init ship moves in front of one before the i6 has moved.
All in all, i'd say fixed price is more apt.
Direct price conversion from 1st ed would be 4 points, which seems pretty good. 5 to be on safe side perhaps.

Edited by Woorloog

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Woorloog said:

...And it can happen with i6 when a low init ship moves in front of one before the i6 has moved.
...

But the lower init ship moving before the Snap shot ship KNOWS where the Range 2 arc is and can avoid it.  An I6 snap will rarely trigger.

Meanwhile, if the snap ship is lower initiative, it can anticipate where the higher Init ship might go.  You can then decide if you want to move to block, move where you think they are going to go to avoid the snap to outflank them, or simply move to set up the snap, but whichever it is, the higher Init ship has to Guess to avoid the snap and so the lower init ship is ALWAYS at an advantage in the snap shot game.

I played a 1.0 match where I had 2 Snap/Push the limit Green Squadron A's vs Dengar in the Punishing One (we each had other ships but we sort of broke off into two groups and it was my 2 A's vs Dengar.)  I killed Dengar in 2 turns of shooting.  One A-Wing blocked him and one positioned where I thought the block would be to set up the Snap.  Both times he moved into the block, one of those being blocked onto an asteroid.  The trailing A-Wing rolled 8 hits with his 10 red dice over the 4 attacks, Dengar took a hit on the rock and blanked on all but one of his unmodified greens with the final hit being a Direct Hit crit to give the Greed Squadron Pilot a solo kill on Dengar.

Edited by pickirk01

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12 hours ago, pickirk01 said:

Meanwhile, if the snap ship is lower initiative, it can anticipate where the higher Init ship might go.  You can then decide if you want to move to block, move where you think they are going to go to avoid the snap to outflank them, or simply move to set up the snap, but whichever it is, the higher Init ship has to Guess to avoid the snap and so the lower init ship is ALWAYS at an advantage in the snap shot game.

This. Adding a range 2 'banana of death' in front of a ship essentially increases the area that a blocker can threaten - anything within range 1 of its final position there's a credible chance of hitting the blocker, but flying slow to avoid this risks running into snap shot(s). Being range 2 rather than range 1 means massed snap shots will be very hard completely.

Not that Wedge is a bad pilot to add it to regardless - there are relatively few ways to make an unmodifiable attack more effective, and his pilot ability is one of them. Using his 'snap shot' arc as a 'keep clear' zone means that people will be hesitant to park somewhere that you can block a speed 1 move - and if they do, you have a chance to do something about it before you activate.

 

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I won't mince words and just simply say that I hate this card and wish it never made the migration to 2.0.  We haven't seen the full text but at range 2 it's open for a wide range of abuse and incredibly oppressive to low health ships that have to play the range management game.  

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11 minutes ago, viedit said:

I won't mince words and just simply say that I hate this card and wish it never made the migration to 2.0.  We haven't seen the full text but at range 2 it's open for a wide range of abuse and incredibly oppressive to low health ships that have to play the range management game.  

Aces are dead, all hail generic spam.

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8 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

Aces are dead, all hail generic spam.

Yeah, basically soontir and Fenn are never going to want to front an opponent.  They often come up a bit short to the range 2 zone to prevent the block if don't know how fast their opponent is going to come in.  Then in Fels case will use double reposition to hop out of arc possibly or shoot in to a R1 kill shot with a boost.  Same with Fenn.  He wants to come in just short of R1 and then choose to boost in to pull all of his r1 shenanigans.  Again, he risks getting half pointed at range 2 before he even activates if dice variance goes sideways.

With the inclusion of passive sensors, you really put ships into bad places.  Stay range 3 and the passive sensor ship can TL and chuck a missile or torp at you without any R3 mods.  Land into r2 and you take a snap shot, plus eat a missile or torp if you don't boost into R1.  Or you can try and shoot the R2 band and hope your opponent doesn't come in too fast and force a block.  Uhg.  With VTG already adding double attacks, this just feels like an unnecessary addition into the game.  I understand that yes there is the option of just never fronting your opponent, but then you've just forced them into one style of play.  I don't like it.

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3 minutes ago, viedit said:

Yeah, basically soontir and Fenn are never going to want to front an opponent.  They often come up a bit short to the range 2 zone to prevent the block if don't know how fast their opponent is going to come in.  Then in Fels case will use double reposition to hop out of arc possibly or shoot in to a R1 kill shot with a boost.  Same with Fenn.  He wants to come in just short of R1 and then choose to boost in to pull all of his r1 shenanigans.  Again, he risks getting half pointed at range 2 before he even activates if dice variance goes sideways.

With the inclusion of passive sensors, you really put ships into bad places.  Stay range 3 and the passive sensor ship can TL and chuck a missile or torp at you without any R3 mods.  Land into r2 and you take a snap shot, plus eat a missile or torp if you don't boost into R1.  Or you can try and shoot the R2 band and hope your opponent doesn't come in too fast and force a block.  Uhg.  With VTG already adding double attacks, this just feels like an unnecessary addition into the game.  I understand that yes there is the option of just never fronting your opponent, but then you've just forced them into one style of play.  I don't like it.

Just dodge the arc bro :)

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3 minutes ago, viedit said:

Yeah, basically soontir and Fenn are never going to want to front an opponent.  They often come up a bit short to the range 2 zone to prevent the block if don't know how fast their opponent is going to come in.  Then in Fels case will use double reposition to hop out of arc possibly or shoot in to a R1 kill shot with a boost.  Same with Fenn.  He wants to come in just short of R1 and then choose to boost in to pull all of his r1 shenanigans.  Again, he risks getting half pointed at range 2 before he even activates if dice variance goes sideways.

With the inclusion of passive sensors, you really put ships into bad places.  Stay range 3 and the passive sensor ship can TL and chuck a missile or torp at you without any R3 mods.  Land into r2 and you take a snap shot, plus eat a missile or torp if you don't boost into R1.  Or you can try and shoot the R2 band and hope your opponent doesn't come in too fast and force a block.  Uhg.  With VTG already adding double attacks, this just feels like an unnecessary addition into the game.  I understand that yes there is the option of just never fronting your opponent, but then you've just forced them into one style of play.  I don't like it.

I'm definitely tempted to continue to meme here and talk about the wholesomeness of generics, but honestly I'm cautiously... unoptimistic? If Snap Shot is 5 or more points it's probably fine because you really limit the spam of it. Less than that and you run into issues.

If they start costing based on number of copies in the list like I've heard for Juke (first is 5, add 3 for each other copy in the list so second is 8, third is 11) I could see that method being used here as well.

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Not sure if that's serious or not.  But if you have mass spam you can just fan out and cast a net they aren't dodging.  You can even just point stuff in directions you ultimately won't get a shot in the combat phase if you are able to trigger snap shot before they reposition from the flank.

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12 minutes ago, viedit said:

Not sure if that's serious or not.  But if you have mass spam you can just fan out and cast a net they aren't dodging.  You can even just point stuff in directions you ultimately won't get a shot in the combat phase if you are able to trigger snap shot before they reposition from the flank.

I'm perfectly serious, that limiting spamming of snap shot is likely as important as limiting the spamming of Juke. Juke gets way better with more copies, and so does Snap because you cast that wide net with more copies of it.

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

I'm definitely tempted to continue to meme here and talk about the wholesomeness of generics, but honestly I'm cautiously... unoptimistic? If Snap Shot is 5 or more points it's probably fine because you really limit the spam of it. Less than that and you run into issues.

If they start costing based on number of copies in the list like I've heard for Juke (first is 5, add 3 for each other copy in the list so second is 8, third is 11) I could see that method being used here as well.

That. It is a bonus attack, and it's now range 2 not range 1. 

I'm not sure what to expect the cost to be - dorsal turret and veteran turret gunner together is about 8 points - it's obviously massively inferior to that.

First editionsnap shot 'scaled up' would be 4 points, and I'd suggest it's much better than that because range 2's banana of death is much more useful than the range 1 of the first edition version.

5-6 points sounds about right. Yes, you can no longer attach it to tactician or R3-A2 but clone commander cody is a nasty pairing for it, and an unmodified 2-dice attack has a much better chance of achieving something than it did against a lot of first edition targets.

That's still cheap enough to be scary. Theoretically, it could be a maximum of 7 points for a swarm of 6 Black Squadron Aces to all come packing it - that's  a potentially fearsome thing to find yourself flying into, since the 'killing zone' can be quite deep as they may well move in on you in two ranks. 

1 minute ago, Micanthropyre said:

I'm perfectly serious, that limiting spamming of snap shot is likely as important as limiting the spamming of Juke. Juke gets way better with more copies, and so does Snap because you cast that wide net with more copies of it.

Probably more so; spamming juke only really matters with ships which can generate a free evade (or an evade and a free action modification of another kind), and that tends to involve either a limited pilot or a more expensive ship. Snap Shot is right at home on a 25 point mining guild prospector, in theory.

 

Edited by Magnus Grendel

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21 hours ago, viedit said:

I won't mince words and just simply say that I hate this card and wish it never made the migration to 2.0.  We haven't seen the full text but at range 2 it's open for a wide range of abuse and incredibly oppressive to low health ships that have to play the range management game.  

Yeah it was always one of my least favorite 1.0 cards (up there with TLT and Expertise); I hope it's priced like Outmaneuver. 

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1 minute ago, impspy said:

Yeah it was always one of my least favorite 1.0 cards (up there with TLT and Expertise); I hope it's priced like Outmaneuver. 

I hope its priced like a Proton Torpedo. Leave my fangs alone

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