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Skitch_

Let's talk Jumpmaster

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Posted (edited)

With the coming release of the Jumpmaster in Wave V and its inevitable availability in Hyperspace I think we should take a look at its current state. The consensus seems to be that the Jumpmaster is by and large trash. Isn't it in FFG's interest though to want to make every ship competitively viable, especially ships they are rereleasing? If the Jumpmaster is viable there is incentive for new players to buy it plus it adds variability to the game. 

Most people seem to think that it is trash not because of its single-arc turret, nor because it can only rotate its turret through a red action, but because of its dial. What can be done to help it? I don't think points changes are the be all end all solution to fixing this ship. Lowering the points on the Jumpmaster won't actually fix anything wrong with it, it will just mean that it is more efficient which will lead to some people spamming it. Four Jumpmasters can already be a thing, but it isn't. So let's keep the points where they are and fix the dial.

I think a really good fix for this would be to give it the ability to take a version of the R4. But it won't be R4 Astromech as that is already limited to small ships. Make it unique and call it Overclocked R4 (since that used to be a card albeit with a different ability in 1.0). Make it only be able to be equipped if the Punishing One title is equipped. Thematically, overclocking an R4 would make it so it works with a larger ship, right? Only one Jumpmaster in each list will be able to have this improved dial because the title naturally limits its usage thus eliminating the Jumpmaster spam. The lowering of the points across the board for the ship is not needed and will not incentivize efficiency seekers to spam the ship. If you want a Jumpmaster with an improved dial the trade-offs are that they are now 10 points more, or 12, or 16, or whatever, and you don’t have a crew and the astromech slot is already taken. The dial now has enough blue maneuvers to offset its red turret rotate action but is still skewed left and is still thematic.

Edited by Skitch_

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How about a limited Astro that is really good at turning right. T4N-51GL (turn signal) "reduce the difficulty of right turn maneuvers. the difficulty cannot be reduced to blue." Only half joking. That dial makes you either way too predictable, or makes it so you can't shed stress when you need to.

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Reading through this thread and others the biggest issue people are having when coming up with ideas is not wanting to have 5 Jm5ks which is a V good decision! 

What if FFg brought the scout down to 41 which would probably still rarely see play but then bring Monaroo/Tel/Dengar to 42/44/46

If they make it so the generics are not worth spamming but the uniques are worth it then I think that would be a better play experience. 

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Posted (edited)

Gunner slot HAS to be incoming when it debuts. I mean, Dengar gunner becomes available in the expansion, so yeah, it would be silly not to update it. 

Errata single turret arc to bowtie. Its rotate is already red. Keeps it in line with all of the Falcons. If Outrider doesn't have a red rotate, and this does, give it a bowtie at least.

Finally, Illicits. Newsflash, Scum having only 3 in Hyperspace is lame. Leia cost at 2 every three turns vs, Contraband Cybernetics, yeah, that's lame too.

We do NOT need a points decrease. That'll get gross real fast.

Edited by Cloaker

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The problem is that if you turn right, you can't rotate, and if you rotate you can't turn right.  And turning right is not recommended in general because it's got relatively poor blues.  Not being able to go one entire direction with a large base is so bad, since it's already really awkward to fly.

 

If only R4 wasn't Small Ship only...

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10 minutes ago, K13R4N said:

Reading through this thread and others the biggest issue people are having when coming up with ideas is not wanting to have 5 Jm5ks which is a V good decision! 

What if FFg brought the scout down to 41 which would probably still rarely see play but then bring Monaroo/Tel/Dengar to 42/44/46

If they make it so the generics are not worth spamming but the uniques are worth it then I think that would be a better play experience. 

But why are people against a five Jumpmaster list. As established the dial is punishing and makes you predictable. Large ships are prone to clipping obstacles or self bumping. Its a two dice turret that's stressfull to rotate and only if your not stressed and don't bump.

 

No-one (hopefully) wants to play with five generic Jumpmaster, it is already not competitive, if you want beef, fly 6 Y-wings with two shield and two hull upgrades, that's a whopping 50+ health and you get smaller bases so easier to keep mods, get an extra gun. But we don't see this list dominating the meta or anything like it. So can all the people worried about some penta-jumpmaster hellscape all calm down. In reality, dropping by the ship to 40 points would mean we could play a mix of four proton and ion Jumpmaster probably with R3, even that doesn't sound too scary.

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Also the Starwing (Nu Squadron pilot)

With the OS-1 title is 14 points cheaper, with two less hull (two hull upgrades would be 10 points, I know you can't have two but the frame is costed 4 points less and can slam and fire (especially if they take targeting computer) have double missile and double Torpedo a way better dial and slamming.

 

Considering JM5K have worse Maneuvering and no white reloads, no sensor slot  and a worse hull to sheild ratio I think they are overcosted relative to the also underperforming (in extended) Alpha class Starwing.

 

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Posted (edited)

If you really want to paint a picture of how terrible this ship is, compare base chassis Contracted Scout to the Dark Courier, both at Init 2, and Punishing One title just to make the primaries balance;

For 1 less point, Infiltrator vs JM5K;

Extra crew 2 actually, vs astromech on P1 JM5K (advantage Infiltrator)

Faction defining Tactical slot  vs. faction defining illicit  (advantage Infiltrator)

Unconditional 3 primary attack vs. red rotate turret (equal, secondary arc means little when you're stressed next round and predictable)

Extra shield vs. agility 2 (advantage Infiltrator, as 2 die attacks and alpha round crits matter more now)

5 K-Turn vs. 4 K-turn (advantage Infiltrator, as we have learned from large base experience from VCX and Lancer)

two more white turns, one more red turn, one more blue maneuver on dial (advantage Infiltrator)

two sloops vs. one (advantage Infiltrator)

Cannon slot (advantage Infiltrator)

2 white 3 turns, 2 Red one turns vs white 1 turn left (advantage Infiltrator, as big bases get blocked more in 4.5 ship meta)

Amazing Repositional option Cloaked (advantage Infiltrator)

Understandably, ships aren't supposed to be apples to apples anymore considering factional balance. But man, the delta between the two is HUGE here....

Edited by Cloaker

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1 hour ago, svelok said:

Random thought: 

+ Gains sensor slot?

Would Contracted Scouts with Passive Sensors and Proton Torpedoes be good? 

Good or not it would be fairly thematic to the ship's design. The Jumpmaster was a recon ship.

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Posted (edited)

I think it should have its pilots reprinted in an upgrade pack and just reprint the pilot cards to make the ship actually playable. It's just bad all around right now. It's hindered by a terrible dial, terrible action bar, terrible ship restrictions like no bow tie turret and even the title only makes it 3 out the front. If they go and change the action bar and things like the single arc turret and how it interacts with the title, you could probably work around the dial. 

 

Its not the only ship I feel could go this way to getting help from this use of packs. Grand Inquisitor for example would be way more playable with 3 force, Vader with purple evade is also an idea thats been put out there before that could also come out. They did say when 2.0 was revealed  that the reason we have the little subtitles on our pilots was so they could reprint them too have different iterations out of the same pilot, so heres hoping they follow through on that.

Edited by SnooSnarry

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2 minutes ago, Scum4Life said:

So add sensor and gunner slots, drop 6 points.

I really want the fix to make non-punishing one builds, and generics viable.

I think Sensor + Gunner and maybe 2 or 3 points in reduction would do that. At 40pts a piece that is allot of real estate that those 5 ships will cover (the range 3 envelope for even a single standard arc large base is really big, not to mention how much space the bases take up), being able to arc dodge looks incredibly iffy in that instance.

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In the interest of being constructive because I need to be more optimistic in my x-wing life;

I think the role of the JM5K is best as a disposable 3rd ship. You know it's going to get hunted down. So play to those strengths. If i had a chance to earn $ by playing a list with a JM5K in it;

Scum 6-6-6

Dengar (58)
Deadman’s Switch (2)
Punishing One (8)

Fenn Rau (68)

Han Solo (Scum) (54)
Trick Shot (2)
Qi’ra (2)
Deadman’s Switch (2)
Total: 196

 

That's three Init 6's, all with some form of reposition, two at odd HP for threshold, Deadman's Switch to terrify swarms and Aces with inflicting large base radius damage. Fenn Rau for the endgame. Might not be S Tier but in the right hands would wipe some lists out.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, NakedDex said:

You would be shocked what people are willing to put on a board if it means walking away with exclusive plastic.

Dex knows what's up.

JM5K needs help, but not so much help that people are running a bunch of roving gangs of toilet seats. I remember those tourney results after its 1st ed release. That was some oppressive nonsense it could do. 

I had a good laugh at how difficult to use it is now when 2nd ed launced, but if they're gonna be sold again, they should have some competitive options, even if it's still hard to use effectively. Gunner slot for agile gunner sounds pretty necessary. All red rotates on a ship that can only go left or straight to clear stress sounds like a blocker or arc-dodgers dream come true.

Edited by Hippie Moosen

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Posted (edited)

jump needs an upgrade that makes its rotate turret action non-red... id argue it needs some more help too.

as a support ship its pretty terrible. Dengar is barely usable in current form but the other pilots? no sir.

if it had a gunner slot it would be still pretty horrible. 2 dice attack ships that cost 46, 47, 50 and 58 for the basic ship is just bad. no easy way to turn right.err thats terrible.

lets look at the unique pilots and their abilities.... not much to see here... well Dengar's double tap is decent but ur going to want Punishing One title to make the worth it... so  66pts for Dengar with double tap... sure, thats not that bad until you realise that ur not going to be able to line up that fwd firing arc very often thanks to that terrible dial. 

For 66pts... Suddenly a firespray generic ship is looking better as its got a better dial by far, has boost, has a rear firing arc, has red reinforce and 3 different tiles, one of which gives it a gunner slot.

Edited by Da_Brown_Bomber

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12 hours ago, Scum4Life said:

But why are people against a five Jumpmaster list. As established the dial is punishing and makes you predictable. Large ships are prone to clipping obstacles or self bumping. Its a two dice turret that's stressfull to rotate and only if your not stressed and don't bump.

 

No-one (hopefully) wants to play with five generic Jumpmaster, it is already not competitive, if you want beef, fly 6 Y-wings with two shield and two hull upgrades, that's a whopping 50+ health and you get smaller bases so easier to keep mods, get an extra gun. But we don't see this list dominating the meta or anything like it. So can all the people worried about some penta-jumpmaster hellscape all calm down. In reality, dropping by the ship to 40 points would mean we could play a mix of four proton and ion Jumpmaster probably with R3, even that doesn't sound too scary.

45 hp behind 2 agi is an absurd amount to chew through and most matches will just be boring bumpfests.

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Points drop and an expanded upgrade bar is where I see it going. We have to assume no specufic upgrades are coming that would immediately soft-fix the many, many shortcomings of this ship now, so let's look at what we have:

It's a turreted ship with no way to move the turret that doesn't adversely affect its maneuver/action choices. It also has a weak as all heck turret for such an expensive frame to boot, and apparently nobody actually

Points drop and an expanded upgrade bar is where I see it going. We have to assume no specufic upgrades are coming that would immediately soft-fix the many, many shortcomings of this ship now, so let's look at what we have:

It's a turreted ship with no way to move the turret that doesn't adversely affect its maneuver/action choices. It also has a weak as all heck turret for such an expensive frame to boot, and apparently nobody actually manning it. Supposedly this is also a scout ship, at least in its in-game configuration, but it doesn't seem to have any appropriate suites for such a ship (astro/sensors), and doesn't seem to enjoy moving freely.

Now, how do we overcome all that without fix cards and written errata? It's a laundry list of issues, and seems overwhelming. First answer is; we don't. More accurately, we don't address all of the issues. There has to be drawbacks to the frame, as there is with every ship. The question becomes what can you live with vs what you can improve.

Let's look at the dial first. It's trash. We know this. We don't need to elaborate. With current cards, the only real way to fix that is with R4, and that's small ship only. Remember, we're not doing written errata here, so that's out.

But how else to mitigate the dial? Well, it's a scout ship that doesn't have an astro slot, so presumably it should have a ballin' sensor suite, right? Ok, wrong, but let's assume it does for now. We only have a few options for the sensor slot in FCS, Collision Detector, Trajectory Simulator, and Advanced Sensors. TS does nothing for us without a device so we'll dismiss that. FCS does give us a dice mod we can potentially use while stressed from all the many things that make us stressed, but it's only a two attack ship to begin with. Still could maybe give Punishing One a boost for that front arc, if you can get it there. Crucially, it's cheap too.

manning it. Supposedly this is also a scout ship, at least in its in-game configuration, but it doesn't seem to have any appropriate suites for such a ship (astro/sensors), and doesn't seem to enjoy moving freely.

Now, how do we overcome all that without fix cards and written errata? It's a laundry list of issues, and seems overwhelming. First answer is; we don't. More accurately, we don't address all of the issues. There has to be drawbacks to the frame, as there is with every ship. The question becomes what can you live with vs what you can improve.

 

Let's look at the dial first. It's trash. We know this. We don't need to elaborate. With current cards, the only real way to fix that is with R4, and that's small ship only. Remember, we're not doing written errata here, so that's out.

But how else to mitigate the dial? Well, it's a scout ship that doesn't have an astro slot, so presumably it should have a ballin' sensor suite, right? Ok, wrong, but let's assume it does for now. We only have a few options for the sensor slot in FCS, Collision Detector, Trajectory Simulator, and Advanced Sensors. TS does nothing for us without a device so we'll dismiss that. Collision Detector is... fine, but its edge case unless you're magnetically attracted to obstacles. does give us a cheap dice mod we can potentially use while stressed from all the many things that make us stressed, but it's only a two attack ship to begin with so its questionable how useful it would be (technically it's 50% efficient but it's not 50% reliable...). Advanced Sensors has some promise in terms of it being a reliable way to ensure you get an action with all those horrific red maneuvers, and could be a genuine boon to the aces for this ship.

 

So let's look at attacking now. It's a two attack primary turret. There's not much we can do with that using upgrade slots. What if we man the turret though, get a Gunner in there? Obvious first option is Dengar, and it's not a bad one for token stripping, but it competes with... well, it competes with Dengar. Bossk and Han are generally decent options that are truly awful here, because the last thing we need is more stress tokens, and Han may not even be allowed to trigger with how many you probably have already. Hotshot Gunner isn't bad at all, but definitely wants to go with aces over generic to maximise the chance to strip a token for later in the engagement phase, and could be a heck of a way nullify ESC attacks from droid swarms. Agile Gunner is the clear winner for generics though, and would easily find a home on an ace too; it's not overpowered, and it at least means that meager two attack turret will be able to track enough to be on target for most of the game.

 

So, that's it. That's all we can do, right? Well, not exactly. It's a primary turreted ship, but what if that turret had a secondary gun mount on it? One mobile arc, two firing options. Let's explore the idea of adding a turret slot to this. What do we have available? Dorsal Turret, Ion Cannon Turret, and... oh wait... that's it.

But that's not so bad really. This sounds wild but hear me out. An ICT actually mitigates some of that dial in that you can potentially ionise a target and get into an advantageous position. It also makes Manaroo an interesting and viable control/support ship.

Dorsal Turret does nothing for us, with the same attack and even lower range... or does it? Could adding the Dorsal Turret for a mere two points be enough to give the ship a white rotate turret action? You're essentially paying two points for an action, and it would make the red rotate from the linked actions more palatable, and understandable. Again, it's still only a two attack turret, but at least now someone has greased the drive motor.

The turret slot option is an interesting one now, and for future turret options, but it would require not so much an errata as an FAQ on primary and secondary turrets sharing one arc.

 

Reality sets in when we look at the reissue spread. Dengar gunner seems to be there, which implies we'll see a Gunner slot at least. FFG are likely handling this one with kid gloves and it'll take a while to actually sort out. I imagine their primary focus is to balance against Dengar for power and the generic for price, and Manny and Tel just get stuck somewhere between.

I'll be surprised if we don't see a points reduction on the frame as a whole, but I don't see the generic going below 44ish. Any point reduction will be an incentive to use the new upgrade slot(s), and will likely favour Dengar himself. No bad thing, really. While people would be up in arms about 5x Jumps hitting the table, or even 4x Jumps with gunner and crew, I don't think many would object to seeing a single Jump ace as part of an interesting comp. Well, at least not those with traumatic hang-ups they can't let go of...

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