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naitsirk

Vader, please!

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Hi guys!

I really want to play "competitive" games with Vader as my commander, but i can't do anything against rebel lists i often play against  (luke+leia + swarm/  Luke wokies 3 flamer atrt).   I am not the most experienced player and have not enough knowledge or time to search good info that can actually help me so you are my only hope!

What is the better list and strategy to use Vader in the game by now?? 

pray for the dark lord...

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Posted (edited)

Unfortunately, I think the consensus on here is that Vader just isn't competitive as a commander vs. the lists that regularly appear on top tournaments, like Wonder Twins, and the other Imperial commanders.

Which units do you have? What do you usually play as a list? Vader can completely eliminate enemy corps units, but he has to get there to do it. So, his impact is largely going to come in Turns 4-6, not 1-3.

How do your games generally go? Do you lose Vader to damage by throwing him out there recklessly? Are you too conservative with him, meaning with his low speed, you never get him into the fray?

It will help to provide more info on what usually goes wrong in your games, specifically. Vader is already at a disadvantage in "The Meta" and it sounds like your opponents are typically going for those Strong Tournament Lists out there.

Edited by manoftomorrow010

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I usually run 4stormtroopers with dlt, 1-2 snowtroopers flamers and royal guard.  I tried him with boba sometimed instead RG, and last week i played two games with krennic and death troopers, 3 snow flamers and 2 dlt teams. One snowtroopers with medic droid.

I usually go fordward with vader trying to get cover + dodge ( i ever run him with saber throw, force push and reflexes). The problem with my games are usually troops. Vader more or less is useful but his men fall down like childs and i can't ensure any objetives when the match is about round 4 cause the lack of folks... 

I feel vader is not the problem at all cause i can catch objetives and slain a couple of rebels in the way, but i don't know what to do with the reduced space he left behind to build the list. 

*i have 2 cores and at least 1 of each empire expansion

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Yeah, it sounds like you're losing due to Corps being wiped out, not Vader. Honestly, none of the other Imperial commanders would help with that, other than being cheaper and allowing you to include even more Corps units. Unfortunately, Rebels will almost always have the upper hand on activations, due to the cheaper cost of their troops and commanders.

If you want to keep Vader, I don't know how much better of a list you can make than Vader + 4 Corps + IRG. With Vader, I wouldn't run Boba cause you're just soaking up even more points that you can't use for troopers.

Depending on the objectives, you could get Vader within range of a center objective in Key Positions or something like that, and have him decimate any corps units that come near. Just protect your troopers as much as you can with terrain and positioning.

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the problem is Rebels troopers are superior to Stormtroopers period. Rebels with Z6 on the move are scary they can get 4-10 hits, stormtroopers are a joke with a potential for 6 hits but most times you'll get 2 and Rebels will have a dodge.

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4 hours ago, Darth evil said:

the problem is Rebels troopers are superior to Stormtroopers period. Rebels with Z6 on the move are scary they can get 4-10 hits, stormtroopers are a joke with a potential for 6 hits but most times you'll get 2 and Rebels will have a dodge.

On the other hand, I had plenty of occasions when a Z-6 squad did 1-2 its, which got negated by cover. Lack of offensive surge really hurts them.

A DLT squad is much more predictable, even if their max number of hits is smaller.

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8 hours ago, Darth evil said:

the problem is Rebels troopers are superior to Stormtroopers period. Rebels with Z6 on the move are scary they can get 4-10 hits, stormtroopers are a joke with a potential for 6 hits but most times you'll get 2 and Rebels will have a dodge.

10 hits, lol.

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The other day I ran Vader against a Leia/Jynn list and it worked really well. The list was:

Vader: force reflexes, saber throw

Stormtrooper: dlt x3

Stormtrooper: dlt, medic droid x2

2 man sniper squad: x2

Imperial Royal Guard: electrostaff, environmental gear

 

No idea if this can compete against wonder twins but the long range dlt plus snipers forced my opponent closer to Vader and the IRG which were able to do a lot of work then. Hope this helps or gives you some ideas!

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10 hours ago, Darth evil said:

the problem is Rebels troopers are superior to Stormtroopers period. Rebels with Z6 on the move are scary they can get 4-10 hits, stormtroopers are a joke with a potential for 6 hits but most times you'll get 2 and Rebels will have a dodge.

I hope saying Rebels can get 10 hits was hyperbole, cause that's just silly.

Since the OP wants to play Vader, it may be true that the Rebel Troopers become a little better because they aren't taking hits from Stormtroopers with maximum allowable aims, since you're not playing Veers with Spotter.

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39 minutes ago, naitsirk said:

Rebels with z6 and luke skywalker truly are my nightmares... 22 points is so cheap for 6 dice. Rebel scum!

6 of the worst attack dice in the game.  Statistically you are getting 1.5 hit/crits with it. People either complain about it being under or over costed based on confirmation bias (your brain is biased to remember that one or two times it rolled all hits instead of the vast majority of times it rolled 1 or 2 hits)

 

I've gone 3-0 with this list (I also love Vader and enjoy trying to play him well)

Vader - Force Push, Force Reflexes, Saber Throw

Director Krennic - Strict Orders

x4 Stormtrooper squads - DLT

x2 Scout strike teams - DLTx sniper

Death troopers - Overwatch, E11D config, DT-F16

 

I honestly believe that Krennic or Palpatine are required to get the most utility out of Vader in the current meta, because they both mitigate his movement issue (palp by pulling the strings and krennic with deploy the garrison) either by getting him into the action a turn sooner or by giving him an extra move + attack once he's in the fray.

Palp and vader are verry expensive, but it is a very destructive gimmick and can work if you play it well.  It can also blow up in your face spectacularly if you cant force a good objective/deployment setup

I prefer krennic because it leaves room to go up to 9 activations and Deploy the Garrison works out to range 3 (instead of range 1-2 of pulling the strings).  Vader also compliments krennic's compel ability by making your troopers in his courage bubble immune to panic.  Plus doing back to back master of evil and annihilation looms on consecutive turns is just wonderful.

As far as losing corps troopers goes, the more I have played this game the more I have realized that corps are actually the most valuable pieces on the board for scoring and so I have started to play very conservatively with them.  When I first started playing I would happily rush them forward to 'get into the fight'.  Now I tend to hold them back and snipe (the DLT is great for this) and only move from cover to cover until its time to rush the objectives (usually turn 5 or 6 unless you are playing recover the supplies or intercept the transmissions).  Any unit that can't score victory points (vehicles and creature troopers on most objectives) can be played very aggressively, because their job is to help win the attrition war during the middle of the game (turns 2-4) by either killing enemy corps troops or drawing fire away from the rest of your force.

A lot of people fail with Vader on turn 0.  They don't use their battle card picks wisely and/or they don't deploy Vader close enough to the action.  He generally loves objectives that require controlling the center of the board (key positions, intercept the transmissions, recover the supplies to a lesser extent).  The worst objective for him is breakthrough, because he will likely be stuck playing goalie due to his slow speed.  He prefers deployments that put him as close to the action as possible (advanced positions, major offensive, battle lines) and hates deployments where he will be left out of the action (long march and potentially disarray if misplayed).  Conditions are pretty open ended, limited visibility is pretty good for his approach, but if you are running DLTs and snipers its not preferred.  Hostile environment plays well with Master of Evil and his unlimited courage bubble, the others are pretty much neutral.  The most important thing for Vader (or palpatine) is to have a plan of where you are going because you wont be able to change direction and jump to a different area of the battlefield and ALWAYS deploy them last so that your opponent cant just counter deploy all of their units far away from them.

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Posted (edited)

I know red die let you save 50% of hits and white without surge is not that awesome, but in my experience this happen more than maths talks:

A complete squad of rebels shot at my troopers behind cover.  Rolls about 3 crits. My stormtrooper armour was made on paper so my roll is two blanks and a surge.... bye bye 3 men. 4 or 5 rebel squads ready to shoot at left. My troops can't panic due to Vader but i want to rum out of here!! Xd

End of round 2, my squads are about two men each.  Trust me, maths is my enemy

Edited by naitsirk

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10 minutes ago, naitsirk said:

I know red die let you save 50% of hits and white without surge is not that awesome, but in my experience this happen more than maths talks:

A complete squad of rebels shot at my troopers behind cover.  Rolls about 3 crits. My stormtrooper armour was made on paper so my roll is two blanks and a surge.... bye bye 3 men. 4 or 5 rebel squads ready to shoot at left. My troops can't panic due to Vader but i want to rum out of here!! Xd

End of round 2, my squads are about two men each.  Trust me, maths is my enemy

This is what @KommanderKeldoth meant by confirmation bias lol

As a Rebel player, I can regale you with just as many stories about rolling all blanks on every white die (defense and Z6 attack and defense on my AT-RTs) I roll, in almost every game lol over a large sample size, it'll even out :) 

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3 hours ago, naitsirk said:

I know red die let you save 50% of hits and white without surge is not that awesome, but in my experience this happen more than maths talks:

A complete squad of rebels shot at my troopers behind cover.  Rolls about 3 crits. My stormtrooper armour was made on paper so my roll is two blanks and a surge.... bye bye 3 men. 4 or 5 rebel squads ready to shoot at left. My troops can't panic due to Vader but i want to rum out of here!! Xd

End of round 2, my squads are about two men each.  Trust me, maths is my enemy

Sounds like my typical games and then Boba passes 23 saves in a row, i kid you not

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On 4/16/2019 at 11:53 AM, naitsirk said:

I know red die let you save 50% of hits and white without surge is not that awesome, but in my experience this happen more than maths talks:

A complete squad of rebels shot at my troopers behind cover.  Rolls about 3 crits. My stormtrooper armour was made on paper so my roll is two blanks and a surge.... bye bye 3 men. 4 or 5 rebel squads ready to shoot at left. My troops can't panic due to Vader but i want to rum out of here!! Xd

End of round 2, my squads are about two men each.  Trust me, maths is my enemy

I am very new so take every thing I say with a grain of salt. Troopers with surge hit on on  3 in 8 with the the white dice, and rebel troopers with surge resist about 1 in 3.  On the flip side, black attack dice hit about half the time without surge and troopers resist half of the time without surge. The dodge token on the troops is more of an advantage than pierce on the imperials. It does add up. The fact that the Z-6 give the rebels the equivalent of a squad of stormtroopers shooting with them.  To answer this I like Keldoth's advice of keeping the troopers back and moving the elites in with Vader. It is counter intuitive, but using the extra reach on the DLT is way more effective than relying on the red dice armor. 

Based on everything I have read here, a second commander to help the troops (Imperial commander until I get Veers or Krennic) and use your stormtroopers as a long range fire base. Use armor or elites to soak the hits. I will let you know how it goes as soon as I can.

 

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23 minutes ago, allistorpreist said:

I am very new so take every thing I say with a grain of salt. Troopers with surge hit on on  3 in 8 with the the white dice, and rebel troopers with surge resist about 1 in 3.  On the flip side, black attack dice hit about half the time without surge and troopers resist half of the time without surge. The dodge token on the troops is more of an advantage than pierce on the imperials. It does add up. The fact that the Z-6 give the rebels the equivalent of a squad of stormtroopers shooting with them.  To answer this I like Keldoth's advice of keeping the troopers back and moving the elites in with Vader. It is counter intuitive, but using the extra reach on the DLT is way more effective than relying on the red dice armor. 

Based on everything I have read here, a second commander to help the troops (Imperial commander until I get Veers or Krennic) and use your stormtroopers as a long range fire base. Use armor or elites to soak the hits. I will let you know how it goes as soon as I can.

 

Yup, if you have a range 4 weapon and your opponent only shoots out to range 3 you shouldn't be advancing on his position early in the game.  Stormtroopers are only going to gain some extra white dice to the attack at range 3 which is not worth the trade off of being fired upon by lots of black dice and Z-6 white dice.

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I have played 3 events of Legion, all with Vader and currently have a 9-1 win record (including 3-1 at Adepticon).

I think he’s pretty balanced, and played well no issue winning.

BUT all my games have been really close and the in record could easily have been much worse.

Best but of advice - play the objectives. Try to get into situations were to claim objectives the enemy has to come towards Vader..: then do what Vader does best. If you try to out gun 11+ activation rebels you Will lose.

New Ways to Motivate is an AMAZING card... use it wisely.

 

The list I used for the three events was:

Vader: Sabre Throw, Reflexes, Force Push

Boba Fett: Hunter, Stimms, Recon 

Storms: Medical Droid, Impact

Storms: Frag

Snows: Flamer, Officer, Frag, Recon

Sniper Team

Sniper Team

Guard: Staff, Tenacity, Environmental Gear

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4 hours ago, Dave Grant said:

I have played 3 events of Legion, all with Vader and currently have a 9-1 win record (including 3-1 at Adepticon).

I think he’s pretty balanced, and played well no issue winning.

BUT all my games have been really close and the in record could easily have been much worse.

Best but of advice - play the objectives. Try to get into situations were to claim objectives the enemy has to come towards Vader..: then do what Vader does best. If you try to out gun 11+ activation rebels you Will lose.

New Ways to Motivate is an AMAZING card... use it wisely.

 

The list I used for the three events was:

Vader: Sabre Throw, Reflexes, Force Push

Boba Fett: Hunter, Stimms, Recon 

Storms: Medical Droid, Impact

Storms: Frag

Snows: Flamer, Officer, Frag, Recon

Sniper Team

Sniper Team

Guard: Staff, Tenacity, Environmental Gear

I really like this list. Very unique. I too like playing Vader and Fett. I don't have a winning record but have had really close games. I might have to netdeck this even though I don't like to do that. 

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Thanks - I enjoy using it

I tend to think of most lists in two parts... offence and defence.

Most missions have objectives that are yours to lose... Storms and Snipers grab these and hide. Killing stuff is secondary for them. Grenades give them a little more threat when people get close though. 

The main force is then offence - to go get the objectives that are more up for grabs. (In the centre). Motivated Guard and Snows (occasionally Boba for Recover) are just great.

 

As I said all my games are close, but that’s how it should be. Hard work vs Luke/Leia, Z6’s and Snipers - but am 2-0 vs that style of list. 

 

My loss was vs the Imperial Equivalent - Veers, Boba, DLTs, Snows and Snipers with a bad mission (breakthrough) and I made a massive mistake with Line of Sight (stupid windows) and got Boba killed for nothing. 

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@Dave Grant Congrats! That is a very impressive record indeed. 

I have only run vader as my first commander, and now with palp. I think he is a very good Commander, I just have a hard time using him the best. He is great at hogging the middle tho, so use that.

 

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On 4/20/2019 at 9:59 AM, Dave Grant said:

I have played 3 events of Legion, all with Vader and currently have a 9-1 win record (including 3-1 at Adepticon).

I think he’s pretty balanced, and played well no issue winning.

BUT all my games have been really close and the in record could easily have been much worse.

Best but of advice - play the objectives. Try to get into situations were to claim objectives the enemy has to come towards Vader..: then do what Vader does best. If you try to out gun 11+ activation rebels you Will lose.

New Ways to Motivate is an AMAZING card... use it wisely.

 

The list I used for the three events was:

Vader: Sabre Throw, Reflexes, Force Push

Boba Fett: Hunter, Stimms, Recon 

Storms: Medical Droid, Impact

Storms: Frag

Snows: Flamer, Officer, Frag, Recon

Sniper Team

Sniper Team

Guard: Staff, Tenacity, Environmental Gear

Sounds good. I often saw super risky to use boba and vader in the same list. 

Can you advice me how to use "new ways to motivate them"? I usually send 1-2 snow flamers squad into a suicide run... sometimes they flame a rebel squad, sometimes they inflict less damage and then they are dead..

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Boba is great.

Honestly the list arose because Vader and Boba are cool - so I tried to make a list with them both in. 

 

New ways:

Best use is for Royal Guard - allowing them to move 3 times and charge.

Second is in snows - often at same time as Guard charge to devastate and area. Often people are still dealing with Snows etc on the turn Vader is most vulnerable, distract the enemy from Vader so he can get into position then Master of Evil and kill stuff. 

Alternate use is on Boba on Rescue supplies to run in grab the middle box and run away. Medic Droid then gets the wound back.

On any the trick is to not overextend and get isolated and then easily killed. 

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3 hours ago, Dave Grant said:

Boba is great.

Honestly the list arose because Vader and Boba are cool - so I tried to make a list with them both in. 

 

New ways:

Best use is for Royal Guard - allowing them to move 3 times and charge.

Second is in snows - often at same time as Guard charge to devastate and area. Often people are still dealing with Snows etc on the turn Vader is most vulnerable, distract the enemy from Vader so he can get into position then Master of Evil and kill stuff. 

Alternate use is on Boba on Rescue supplies to run in grab the middle box and run away. Medic Droid then gets the wound back.

On any the trick is to not overextend and get isolated and then easily killed. 

Boba is a good pair for Vader or the Emperor because he provides the much needed mobility and flexibility that the Sith lords lack.  He can be a skirmisher strategically grabbing objectives while the commander hits like a truck

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On 4/15/2019 at 12:21 PM, manoftomorrow010 said:

Unfortunately, I think the consensus on here is that Vader just isn't competitive as a commander vs. the lists that regularly appear on top tournaments, like Wonder Twins, and the other Imperial commanders.

Which units do you have? What do you usually play as a list? Vader can completely eliminate enemy corps units, but he has to get there to do it. So, his impact is largely going to come in Turns 4-6, not 1-3.

How do your games generally go? Do you lose Vader to damage by throwing him out there recklessly? Are you too conservative with him, meaning with his low speed, you never get him into the fray?

It will help to provide more info on what usually goes wrong in your games, specifically. Vader is already at a disadvantage in "The Meta" and it sounds like your opponents are typically going for those Strong Tournament Lists out there.

Q: Who are "Wonder Twins"?

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